Would you install and use an NHS Covid tracking app?

Would you install and use an NHS Covid tracking app?

Poll: Would you install and use an NHS Covid tracking app?

Total Members Polled: 875

Yes, I'd install and the app without coercion: 42%
Only if it allowed me freedom of movement: 9%
No, I don't want the app tracking my contacts: 49%
Author
Discussion

grumbledoak

31,499 posts

232 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
R Mutt said:
So it was dropped because there could be no agreement on a system whereby the government could retain data on those potentially infected.

No surprise considering the number of people whose default position was to reject any such app which might know where you've been.

Blaming the government for not having a useful system which could actually trace you by way of your address, because you didn't want your data available seems a little hypocritical.
That's quite a misrepresentation of the situation. Well done! clap


Zirconia

36,010 posts

283 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
R Mutt said:
So it was dropped because there could be no agreement on a system whereby the government could retain data on those potentially infected.

No surprise considering the number of people whose default position was to reject any such app which might know where you've been.

Blaming the government for not having a useful system which could actually trace you by way of your address, because you didn't want your data available seems a little hypocritical.
It was dead before it started and they warned non NHSX App developers off. That ability to work the way they were trying was pointed out by people that knew the system (and on record). Reading the commentary from such people and they have several apps already run out by countries around the world.

All they have done now is put people off.

I would have gone for the Apple version had they been open and the privacy not so give away. NHSX I was never going to use due to the privacy issues once I used what was going on. Now I will not even use an Apple version. Ever. They have screwed the pooch on this one.

11.8 million arrantly.


itsnotarace

4,685 posts

208 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
Someone got rich!

Dominic Cummings mates brother wasnt it?


pip t

1,364 posts

166 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
Zirconia said:
It was dead before it started and they warned non NHSX App developers off. That ability to work the way they were trying was pointed out by people that knew the system (and on record). Reading the commentary from such people and they have several apps already run out by countries around the world.

All they have done now is put people off.

I would have gone for the Apple version had they been open and the privacy not so give away. NHSX I was never going to use due to the privacy issues once I used what was going on. Now I will not even use an Apple version. Ever. They have screwed the pooch on this one.

11.8 million arrantly.
Just curious - why would you not now use a version based on the Apple/ Google system. The privacy credentials of that haven’t changed?

Electro1980

8,248 posts

138 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
pip t said:
Mr E said:
The information on the screen is completely clear IMHO. If the user can’t understand that, then they wont understand or even listen to a briefing of more than 5 words.

Again. I have read the technical description of the data captured with the google-Apple code. I have pretty much zero privacy concerns if it’s implemented correctly.

I do have concerns that people will report Covid symptoms “for a laugh” resulting in false alarms.
As I understand it the new A/G one will only use confirmed test results, not self assessment of symptoms, to trigger alerts. Though I can’t now find where I read that.

I take your point on the information in the settings screen, but from what you’ve said about reading the tech descriptions, you, like me are coming at this from a reasonable degree of technical knowledge. For a huge amount of people, the settings on their phone isn’t somewhere they frequently go, and they simply don’t know anything about how it all works. I don’t blame them for that by the way, it’s simply not interesting to a lot of people.

A simple factual presentation at the briefing showing things like:

- You can turn this on and off, and this is how
- You have to install the app, we can’t do it remotely
- No data gets sent anywhere out of your control
- G/A don’t get any data from it other than the fact that you’ve downloaded it

would go a long way to solving the potential uptake problem, provided it’s someone with credibility presenting it.
I think it should be also noted that this toggle is not the primary control. It’s an additional layer of privacy protection above what normally exists for APIs

Layer 1 - for Apple, review before release to ensure it is not doing anything against apples terms or what the app says it is doing
Layer 2 - the choice to download the app
Layer 3 - there should be controls specifically relating to that app either within the app or control centre (at least for Apple. No idea about google).

This is a final layer, added because this technology is so high profile and high risk. The built in ability to switch off this API means that even if a government (or anyone else) slip past 1, force people to do 2 and fake or ignore 3 then the phone owner still has control.

Zirconia

36,010 posts

283 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
pip t said:
Just curious - why would you not now use a version based on the Apple/ Google system. The privacy credentials of that haven’t changed?
I know that your data is now the key ingredient for the government and it is for sale and we do not have the usual controls (Matt Hancock signed it away).

Question of trust now. Apple and Google I expect to do what they say on the tin. Just too far gone for me now with the government to play ball, I am doing a Cummings and using my own judgement.

Though foreign travel could pose an issue (all up in the air at the moment). Say for example Country A says you can visit but must have our country specific app but we need to see history of the UK app to let you in.

R Mutt

5,882 posts

71 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
grumbledoak said:
R Mutt said:
So it was dropped because there could be no agreement on a system whereby the government could retain data on those potentially infected.

No surprise considering the number of people whose default position was to reject any such app which might know where you've been.

Blaming the government for not having a useful system which could actually trace you by way of your address, because you didn't want your data available seems a little hypocritical.
That's quite a misrepresentation of the situation. Well done! clap
Please enlighten me if it's nothing to do with the government wanting a centralised model to monitor the locations of infections to detect regional hotspot, as was reported. Or was the issue they just wanted to sell your data?

grumbledoak

31,499 posts

232 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
R Mutt said:
Please enlighten me if it's nothing to do with the government wanting a centralised model to monitor the locations of infections to detect regional hotspot, as was reported. Or was the issue they just wanted to sell your data?
Read the thread. The instant, knee-jerk overreach and data sale only confirmed what anyone with experience of government and it's IT projects already knew.

cymatty

589 posts

69 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
bbc said:
France released its StopCovid app on 2 June to help track and trace infected people across the country. Digital Minister Cédric O declared it had got off to a "very good start" the next day, with more than 600,000 downloads.

In a press conference today, the minister said this was now up to 1.9 million people. This is less than 3% of France's population of roughly 67 million people.

Of those users, only 68 have declared themselves positive with the virus through the app. Nearly half a million have deleted the app since downloading it.
Seems the French don't want the app either.

Zirconia

36,010 posts

283 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
Looks like they can now scrape your data when you eat out, restaurants and pubs will share with NHS. Have restaurants and pubs changed the GDPR T+C.

Not going out anytime soon then.

R Mutt

5,882 posts

71 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
grumbledoak said:
R Mutt said:
Please enlighten me if it's nothing to do with the government wanting a centralised model to monitor the locations of infections to detect regional hotspot, as was reported. Or was the issue they just wanted to sell your data?
Read the thread. The instant, knee-jerk overreach and data sale only confirmed what anyone with experience of government and it's IT projects already knew.
I can just see a lot of people who refuse to log in to a public Wi-Fi network

V1nce Fox

5,508 posts

67 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
No phone, pay cash.

pip t

1,364 posts

166 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
Zirconia said:
pip t said:
Just curious - why would you not now use a version based on the Apple/ Google system. The privacy credentials of that haven’t changed?
I know that your data is now the key ingredient for the government and it is for sale and we do not have the usual controls (Matt Hancock signed it away).

Question of trust now. Apple and Google I expect to do what they say on the tin. Just too far gone for me now with the government to play ball, I am doing a Cummings and using my own judgement.

Though foreign travel could pose an issue (all up in the air at the moment). Say for example Country A says you can visit but must have our country specific app but we need to see history of the UK app to let you in.
But this is the point. The NHSX app is dead in the water, and if we do get an app, it'll be based on the A/G protocol, with all the 'does what it says on the tin' privacy protections that that entails.

In terms of foreign travel, they won't be able to see the history of your 'UK app' because based on the A/G protocol, there won't be a visible history, at least not of your 'proximity events.' It may show that you've had a test and tested positive I guess, who knows at this point. In fact if you have an app based on the A/G protocol, it may be compatible with a similar app in their country anyway. They potentially could want to see that you have one installed I guess.

I'm still kinda confused about your position. I could completely understand it if they were forging ahead with the original NHSX app, but they're not.

Zirconia said:
Looks like they can now scrape your data when you eat out, restaurants and pubs will share with NHS. Have restaurants and pubs changed the GDPR T+C.

Not going out anytime soon then.
This is indeed an interesting one, and fraught with legislative conflict.

It appears initially at least this will just be a manual process of them writing down your name and phone number. Which I would assume you can misdirect pretty easily should you wish to, unless they're going to start IDing everyone too.

From what I've read, the industry is pretty deeply unhappy with the idea.

Edited by pip t on Tuesday 23 June 16:25

pip t

1,364 posts

166 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
R Mutt said:
So it was dropped because there could be no agreement on a system whereby the government could retain data on those potentially infected.

No surprise considering the number of people whose default position was to reject any such app which might know where you've been.

Blaming the government for not having a useful system which could actually trace you by way of your address, because you didn't want your data available seems a little hypocritical.
The blame comes in the fact that they were repeatedly told by industry experts that this simply wouldn't work properly on the iOS platform. Unless they opted to go with Apples own API, and forego centralised data collection.

They elected to ignore this advice, push ahead with their own app, then act all surprised and try to push the blame onto Apple when it, surprise surprise, didn't work properly!

Zirconia

36,010 posts

283 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
pip t said:
I'm still kinda confused about your position. I could completely understand it if they were forging ahead with the original NHSX app, but they're not.
Yeah, not clear. This was always going to be part of a bigger plan that is track and trace. Never saw it as a sole operator. There are a few open source ones they could jump on apparently but being that this will be a part of the whole, I expect the situation to be engineered to still nab info (not directly from the app now). This fear is from the data store they have given away and the way the privacy has been re wired.

I suppose if a good org would get its its on the new app, and see where it sits in the system but pretty much don't expect the data points to be given up easy.

pequod

8,956 posts

137 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
Is this still relevant? Surely the point of a TTI system has long since sailed, unless you believe a second wave will be even more dangerous?

This smells of a Govt that has put money and their reputation into a tech system which is no longer required, but on they go to assuage who exactly? The Karens will never be satisfied that it is safe to come out from behind the sofa, yet, the majority of the population using their common sense, are out and about and, currently, booking a glamping fortnight in Devon!

Please explain to me if my understanding is wrong?

Electro1980

8,248 posts

138 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
Zirconia said:
Looks like they can now scrape your data when you eat out, restaurants and pubs will share with NHS. Have restaurants and pubs changed the GDPR T+C.

Not going out anytime soon then.
I would put good money on the government not even having though about GDPR, pubs and restaurants won’t think about it (at least not independent ones) and it will all be hand-waved away like so much else has been with shouts of “unprecedented times!”. It’s like watching the warden on dads army shouting “don’t you know there’s a war on” to excuse things.

RSTurboPaul

10,219 posts

257 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
Zirconia said:
Looks like they can now scrape your data when you eat out, restaurants and pubs will share with NHS. Have restaurants and pubs changed the GDPR T+C.

Not going out anytime soon then.
May I ask if you have a link to that story?

(I've not been keeping up with the depressing BBC.)

Zirconia

36,010 posts

283 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
RSTurboPaul said:
Zirconia said:
Looks like they can now scrape your data when you eat out, restaurants and pubs will share with NHS. Have restaurants and pubs changed the GDPR T+C.

Not going out anytime soon then.
May I ask if you have a link to that story?

(I've not been keeping up with the depressing BBC.)
Comments from the news. They will ask venues that serve you to log your contact details for future use in case there is a flare up. Probably a bit more will come out.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-52530518

Under hospitality.

Electro1980 said:
I would put good money on the government not even having though about GDPR, pubs and restaurants won’t think about it (at least not independent ones) and it will all be hand-waved away like so much else has been with shouts of “unprecedented times!”. It’s like watching the warden on dads army shouting “don’t you know there’s a war on” to excuse things.
They have already relaxed the rules allowing NHS related with covid info to do basically what they want, I am not sure where the data controller for a family run pub selling food will sit, maybe this will come undertone NHS relaxed ruling? It will be interesting to see the real legal bit here.

pequod said:
Is this still relevant? Surely the point of a TTI system has long since sailed, unless you believe a second wave will be even more dangerous?

This smells of a Govt that has put money and their reputation into a tech system which is no longer required, but on they go to assuage who exactly? The Karens will never be satisfied that it is safe to come out from behind the sofa, yet, the majority of the population using their common sense, are out and about and, currently, booking a glamping fortnight in Devon!

Please explain to me if my understanding is wrong?
The app was never going to run, the rep was never there. It was going to be the best in the world, Boris likes to shout that from the roof tops for a lot of things, he has been fact checked for his claims this afternoon and found wanting. Before it failed, they could have changed course. They didn't, the holes in the privacy were pulled out not by beta testing but concerned devs. It also appears that the distance claim has been spun by the government as well (comment in the press yesterday or this am that went unnoticed.

The mo of this administration has been a data grab. Dom was hired for a reason, he brought in big data players, Palantir and Faculty picked up temporary contracts for a quid and with the NHS data store sign off, they are making money off this. App is binned and reported 11.8 million.

Have to go, need to iron my foil hat.


Edited by Zirconia on Tuesday 23 June 17:18

M4cruiser

3,550 posts

149 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
Seems like a good time to buy a few cheap pay-go phones and change it every day.
wink

Edited by M4cruiser on Wednesday 24th June 17:45