Would you install and use an NHS Covid tracking app?

[V1nce Fox]

"The mo of this administration has been a data grab."


Kid yourselves on about foil hat ad hominems all you like, but this is at the heart of it. They were determined not to let a crisis go to waste.

Data is the new oil.

[Kermit power]

I'm afraid to say the poll is now incorrect!

I originally voted in favour, but now that it has become so blatantly obvious that the lockdown is doing so many orders of magnitude more harm than good to the school and working age population, fk that for a laugh!

[markcoznottz]

pequod said:

Is this still relevant? Surely the point of a TTI system has long since sailed, unless you believe a second wave will be even more dangerous?

This smells of a Govt that has put money and their reputation into a tech system which is no longer required, but on they go to assuage who exactly? The Karens will never be satisfied that it is safe to come out from behind the sofa, yet, the majority of the population using their common sense, are out and about and, currently, booking a glamping fortnight in Devon!

Please explain to me if my understanding is wrong?

https://youtu.be/hCjzBqMrjcU

Rarely have I seen a senior minister flap as bad as this, if anyone who watches this doesn’t think the virus is a data grab scam then there is no hope at all. It’s a long interview, absolutely painful, skip to 4.10 for the pub stuff. Interviewer very good.

[RSTurboPaul]

Zirconia said:

RSTurboPaul said:

Zirconia said:

Looks like they can now scrape your data when you eat out, restaurants and pubs will share with NHS. Have restaurants and pubs changed the GDPR T+C.

Not going out anytime soon then.

May I ask if you have a link to that story?

(I've not been keeping up with the depressing BBC.)

Comments from the news. They will ask venues that serve you to log your contact details for future use in case there is a flare up. Probably a bit more will come out.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-52530518

Under hospitality.

Thank you very much!

Will have a read of that

[R Mutt]

V1nce Fox said:

"The mo of this administration has been a data grab."


Kid yourselves on about foil hat ad hominems all you like, but this is at the heart of it. They were determined not to let a crisis go to waste.

Data is the new oil.

The Chinese?

[Zirconia]

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5eb...

Section 2.1
"The opening up of the economy following the COVID-19 outbreak is being supported by NHS Test and Trace. You should assist this service by keeping a temporary record of your customers and visitors for 21 days, in a way that is manageable for your business, and assist NHS Test and Trace with requests for that data if needed. This could help contain clusters or outbreaks. Many businesses that take bookings already have systems for recording their customers and visitors – including restaurants, hotels, and hair salons. If you do not already do this, you should do so to help fight the virus. We will work with industry and relevant bodies to design this system in line with data protection legislation, and set out details shortly."

[anonymous-user]

Zirconia said:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5eb...

Section 2.1
"The opening up of the economy following the COVID-19 outbreak is being supported by NHS Test and Trace. You should assist this service by keeping a temporary record of your customers and visitors for 21 days, in a way that is manageable for your business, and assist NHS Test and Trace with requests for that data if needed. This could help contain clusters or outbreaks. Many businesses that take bookings already have systems for recording their customers and visitors – including restaurants, hotels, and hair salons. If you do not already do this, you should do so to help fight the virus. We will work with industry and relevant bodies to design this system in line with data protection legislation, and set out details shortly."

I wonder what it’ll mean in reality
Go to a pub. A few days later, someone has batflu
Pub hands over the details of who was there that night. All have to isolate for 14 days?
A good reason not to go if that’s the case
Or there will be a lot of Mr M Mouse etc on the list

[Mr E]

Should, not must?

[Zirconia]

Jimboka said:

I wonder what it’ll mean in reality
Go to a pub. A few days later, someone has batflu
Pub hands over the details of who was there that night. All have to isolate for 14 days?
A good reason not to go if that’s the case
Or there will be a lot of Mr M Mouse etc on the list

As you say but I expect there be a lot of Mr Johnson, No10 Downing Street on the records with false phone numbers or the number of someone you hate? Proof of ID? Blond wig?

Mr E said:

Should, not must?

Yeah, clocked that, there have been a lot of should rather than must, it is how Cummings wormed out of it.

[markcoznottz]

Zirconia said:

Jimboka said:

I wonder what it’ll mean in reality
Go to a pub. A few days later, someone has batflu
Pub hands over the details of who was there that night. All have to isolate for 14 days?
A good reason not to go if that’s the case
Or there will be a lot of Mr M Mouse etc on the list

As you say but I expect there be a lot of Mr Johnson, No10 Downing Street on the records with false phone numbers or the number of someone you hate? Proof of ID? Blond wig?

Mr E said:

Should, not must?

Yeah, clocked that, there have been a lot of should rather than must, it is how Cummings wormed out of it.

Yea exactly, who has time for all this. What if your handwriting is poor, assuming someone else doesn’t take down your details. The end point would be like some dystopian red dwarf episode, where you scan your phone on entry, and it stops you buying any more beer, (cashless by then remember).

[pip t]

Zirconia said:

Jimboka said:

I wonder what it’ll mean in reality
Go to a pub. A few days later, someone has batflu
Pub hands over the details of who was there that night. All have to isolate for 14 days?
A good reason not to go if that’s the case
Or there will be a lot of Mr M Mouse etc on the list

As you say but I expect there be a lot of Mr Johnson, No10 Downing Street on the records with false phone numbers or the number of someone you hate? Proof of ID? Blond wig?

Mr E said:

Should, not must?

Yeah, clocked that, there have been a lot of should rather than must, it is how Cummings wormed out of it.

As far as I'm aware 'should' rather than 'must' has a similar status in these kind of guidelines as in the Highway Code. It's not law, you don't have to do it in that sense, but if anything happens the fact that you weren't doing it can very much be used against you.

[M4cruiser]

markcoznottz said:

https://youtu.be/hCjzBqMrjcU

Rarely have I seen a senior minister flap as bad as this, if anyone who watches this doesn’t think the virus is a data grab scam then there is no hope at all. It’s a long interview, absolutely painful, skip to 4.10 for the pub stuff. Interviewer very good.

^^ Correct. There was going to be only one winner between Sophy Cringe and Matt Haircut.

[Zirconia]

Interesting article via https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/12764895131...
https://www.ft.com/content/9446192a-aff1-4e95-93fb...
Not paywall at first reading, clear cookies or something?

Nugget regarding distances.
NHSX detected 4% iPhones. Apple google system detected 99%. Government testing figures according to the article. Wonder if that is a correct statement.

Anon interviews with those involved for the info.

[pip t]

Zirconia said:

Interesting article via https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/12764895131...
https://www.ft.com/content/9446192a-aff1-4e95-93fb...
Not paywall at first reading, clear cookies or something?

Yes, interesting article. Though not really a surprising one. As other people pointed out way back when this first appeared on the scene, this was a government IT project, which don't have particularly good track records of success. Seeing a snippet of what was going on behind the scenes from this article, they were correct.

Zirconia said:

Nugget regarding distances.
NHSX detected 4% iPhones. Apple google system detected 99%. Government testing figures according to the article. Wonder if that is a correct statement.

Anon interviews with those involved for the info.

Those percentages aren't related to distances. They're a symptom of the protections built into iOS, which can only be properly worked around by using the Apple/ Google API.

There's two 'points of failure' if you like around these apps. Actually there's more, but the two most relevant here are:

1 - The ability to register other handsets within bluetooth range (The actual exchange of tokens). This is hampered in apps not using the A/G API by the privacy protections built into the operating systems. This is more of an issue with iOS than Android, though the full figures were 4% of iPhones, 75% of Android phones, so the problem is not entirely absent in Android. This is probably caused by later versions of Android adopting some of the protections built into iOS. Also only fair to point out, the 4% of iPhones were 4% of iPhones where the device was locked and the app in the background, not 4% of total iPhones.

2 - The ability of Bluetooth to accurately judge distances. Bluetooth was never designed as a method of measuring distance. It's not great at it. The NHSX app appears to have been better at this than apps based on the A/G API, possibly because in the NHSX app the devices inform each other what type of device they are (Eg an iPhone 8 or a Samsung Galaxy S10 etc), so it can take into account the characteristics of the bluetooth radio stacks in those devices. The A/G API doesn't allow this, so those characteristics can't be taken into account. The surrounding environment can also affect how well bluetooth transmits (Bluetooth is just radio waves like any others), for example the metal in a train carriage can cause anomalies. The argument is just how bad the distance detection is, and whether it's better to have a system that works to a degree, but may give anomalous results, or just not to have a system.


Other interesting news is the fact that Northern Ireland is working towards releasing a A/G based app, and thinks it can release it in a matter of weeks. If they manage it, that could cause a degree of embarrassment in Downing Street....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53200521

[bitchstewie]

Interesting

Coronavirus: Why Singapore turned to wearable contact-tracing tech

Meanwhile I presume we're just crossing our fingers and hoping post-it notes in pubs and restaurants and hairdressers will do the job.

[Welshbeef]

pip t said:

Those percentages aren't related to distances. They're a symptom of the protections built into iOS, which can only be properly worked around by using the Apple/ Google API.

There's two 'points of failure' if you like around these apps. Actually there's more, but the two most relevant here are:

1 - The ability to register other handsets within bluetooth range (The actual exchange of tokens). This is hampered in apps not using the A/G API by the privacy protections built into the operating systems. This is more of an issue with iOS than Android, though the full figures were 4% of iPhones, 75% of Android phones, so the problem is not entirely absent in Android. This is probably caused by later versions of Android adopting some of the protections built into iOS. Also only fair to point out, the 4% of iPhones were 4% of iPhones where the device was locked and the app in the background, not 4% of total iPhones.

2 - The ability of Bluetooth to accurately judge distances. Bluetooth was never designed as a method of measuring distance. It's not great at it. The NHSX app appears to have been better at this than apps based on the A/G API, possibly because in the NHSX app the devices inform each other what type of device they are (Eg an iPhone 8 or a Samsung Galaxy S10 etc), so it can take into account the characteristics of the bluetooth radio stacks in those devices. The A/G API doesn't allow this, so those characteristics can't be taken into account. The surrounding environment can also affect how well bluetooth transmits (Bluetooth is just radio waves like any others), for example the metal in a train carriage can cause anomalies. The argument is just how bad the distance detection is, and whether it's better to have a system that works to a degree, but may give anomalous results, or just not to have a system.


Other interesting news is the fact that Northern Ireland is working towards releasing a A/G based app, and thinks it can release it in a matter of weeks. If they manage it, that could cause a degree of embarrassment in Downing Street....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53200521

Sod embarrassment (well the actual U.K. developers should hang their heads in shame) politicians don’t develop apps developers do.

We should be cheering them on then if it works take it on for the U.K. if suitable.


God what a joke people here seem to love bashing anyone and everyone stand up for our country or if you think you can do better step forward and hop onto the development team. Armchair bashing is a sign of weakness.

[grumbledoak]

Welshbeef said:

God what a joke people here seem to love bashing anyone and everyone stand up for our country or if you think you can do better step forward and hop onto the development team. Armchair bashing is a sign of weakness.

I don't think refusing to work on an Orwellian tracking system is "weakness". I think failing to see these things for what they are is rank stupidity.

[pequod]

bhstewie said:

Interesting

Coronavirus: Why Singapore turned to wearable contact-tracing tech

Meanwhile I presume we're just crossing our fingers and hoping post-it notes in pubs and restaurants and hairdressers will do the job.

A lot of elderly folk already wear a fall detector which has an inbuilt gps tracker so that in the event of a fall, or other emergency, your contacts can be alerted and assistance dispatched. Something like this;

https://www.buddi.co.uk/faq/general

I can't imagine too many complaints from that age group if they were issued with a wearable contact tracer foc and would overcome the need for everyone to have an up to date smartphone that many don't want or need.

I did suggest this solution a while back!

[RSTurboPaul]

pequod said:

bhstewie said:

Interesting

Coronavirus: Why Singapore turned to wearable contact-tracing tech

Meanwhile I presume we're just crossing our fingers and hoping post-it notes in pubs and restaurants and hairdressers will do the job.

A lot of elderly folk already wear a fall detector which has an inbuilt gps tracker so that in the event of a fall, or other emergency, your contacts can be alerted and assistance dispatched. Something like this;

https://www.buddi.co.uk/faq/general

I can't imagine too many complaints from that age group if they were issued with a wearable contact tracer foc and would overcome the need for everyone to have an up to date smartphone that many don't want or need.

I did suggest this solution a while back!

Voluntary uptake of an offer that may benefit the individual is one thing.

Mandatory tracking of every single person on pain of punishment is another thing.

[bitchstewie]

RSTurboPaul said:

Voluntary uptake of an offer that may benefit the individual is one thing.

Mandatory tracking of every single person on pain of punishment is another thing.

Right now the issue is one of availability rather than whether it's voluntary or not.