Cummings and goings...
Discussion
citizensm1th said:
Interestingly on the BBC news this morning they are reporting that UK gov is bringing forward the ban on new car sales of internal combustion engines by ten years.
Linked?
Lots of interesting theories flying around.Linked?
- Trump
- Biden
- Carrie
- Populism
- Brexit
Unknown_User said:
2 good posts, thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts & observations.
A couple of things jump out with the above though, 1 - why did the tory party allow itself to enable Dom Cum with so much influence and power in the first place? 2 - This has been going on for months now, at a time when the United Kingdom needed good leadership and a steady hand at the helm.
Moving forwards, my concerns are that the tories are playing catch up at the absolute worse possible moment and have they learnt from this period of ineptitude? Only time will tell......
To your second point, I think this is why too large a group of cabinet to ignore lost patience and pushed hard for him to go. Pretty much since the election and certainly since Covid a centre-right group has emerged in cabinet who have been at odds with the the more radical elements of the PMs agenda and, particularly, the foreign and domestic policy agendas of Raab and Patel. A couple of things jump out with the above though, 1 - why did the tory party allow itself to enable Dom Cum with so much influence and power in the first place? 2 - This has been going on for months now, at a time when the United Kingdom needed good leadership and a steady hand at the helm.
Moving forwards, my concerns are that the tories are playing catch up at the absolute worse possible moment and have they learnt from this period of ineptitude? Only time will tell......
Up until recently, that group hasn't hasn't really had the teeth to challenge anything but the combination of some very badly thought-through and received policies in recent months, coupled to the cut-through that Sunak has had on the economy means that they are raising their voice somewhat on issues like Cummings' role.
Edited by ClaphamGT3 on Saturday 14th November 10:19
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hstewie said:
hstewie said:citizensm1th said:
Interestingly on the BBC news this morning they are reporting that UK gov is bringing forward the ban on new car sales of internal combustion engines by ten years.
Linked?
Lots of interesting theories flying around.Linked?
- Trump
- Biden
- Carrie
- Populism
- Brexit
ClaphamGT3 said:
To your second point, I think this is why too large a group of cabinet to ignore list patience and pushed hard for him to go. Pretty much since the election and certainly since Covid a centre-right group has emerged in cabinet who have been at odds with the the more radical elements of the PMs agenda .
So pretty much since the election which they won with this "radical agenda" they have been agitating to change it. Some things never change, and politicians thinking the manifestos they stand on are a series of lies to fool the electorate is one of them it appears.
andy_s said:
El stovey said:
AC43 said:
That's an interesting analysis. I think it makes sense to get Cummings out. He sounds like a divisive little st. He's hated acorss the country becuse of his appalling lockdown behaviour (which also needlessly burned a massive amount of BJ's political capital).
Understandably, moderate Tories will find a lot of his policies pretty repugnant. But over, and above all that, it's the way he goes about things that seems to piss everone off.
I know a reasonably senior civil servant who accepts that Downing Street will sometime try to figure things out on their own but hates it when some initiative or other gets handed over to Cummings and his pals. They just disappear into their bunker and emerge with some idea or other, often completely unworkable because they never consult people who actually have to deliver things and who often have very useful intel from the front line.
I've seen Cummings-type people try to pull similar stunts in the private sector and it rarely, if ever works. It's all swagger and bravado at the beginning. Laughing at the "stupid" people. Then making a whole string of operational mistakes, failing, getting fired and leaving a horrible stench behind.
Exactly, it’s the inevitable end result of empathy lacking narcissist types being given too much influence. They don’t understand the need for cooperation and relationships and selling their ideas to people and getting them onside. All they know about is ideology and superforcasting and data and threatening people who don’t see it their way.t. He's hated acorss the country becuse of his appalling lockdown behaviour (which also needlessly burned a massive amount of BJ's political capital).Understandably, moderate Tories will find a lot of his policies pretty repugnant. But over, and above all that, it's the way he goes about things that seems to piss everone off.
I know a reasonably senior civil servant who accepts that Downing Street will sometime try to figure things out on their own but hates it when some initiative or other gets handed over to Cummings and his pals. They just disappear into their bunker and emerge with some idea or other, often completely unworkable because they never consult people who actually have to deliver things and who often have very useful intel from the front line.
I've seen Cummings-type people try to pull similar stunts in the private sector and it rarely, if ever works. It's all swagger and bravado at the beginning. Laughing at the "stupid" people. Then making a whole string of operational mistakes, failing, getting fired and leaving a horrible stench behind.
Then they’re surprised when it all falls apart because everyone hates them, doesn’t see their vision and those that hired them wonder what all went wrong and how they’re going to clean up the mess.
People like Cummings definitely have their uses in certain departments or parts of an organisation but should be kept in a box, brought out to answer specific questions about something and then put back in, not given free reign to cause widespread damage like he has. They definitely shouldn’t be managing people or overall policies.
A rationalist has no place in politics. It's too uncomfortable.
He is an odious little bully who was toxic to our government and country.
JagLover said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
To your second point, I think this is why too large a group of cabinet to ignore list patience and pushed hard for him to go. Pretty much since the election and certainly since Covid a centre-right group has emerged in cabinet who have been at odds with the the more radical elements of the PMs agenda .
So pretty much since the election which they won with this "radical agenda" they have been agitating to change it. Some things never change, and politicians thinking the manifestos they stand on are a series of lies to fool the electorate is one of them it appears.
Bill said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I mean if only there was a way you could have guessed at his character and judgement before voting for him 
Would Boris ever have won if brexit wasn’t happening or if Corbyn wasn’t the alternative? Same with Trump.
As things are returning to the historic, more moderate norm in America and the U.K. and more traditional western liberal democracy is reappearing, it’s easy to say common sense won or take it as a victory for your own politics but these outliers are the result of something.
Boris/Cummings or Trump would never have happened in the first place if people were more content with the status quo or hadn’t been led to believe they were unhappy with the status quo.
To me the appearance of this kind of politics is indicative of something underlying being wrong, or perceived to be wrong, somewhere else.
Or maybe in the future people will be happier with more western liberal democracy after they’ve now seen some of the alternatives?
No type of government is perfect but I’d much prefer a return to Cameron May Blair type government than this dystopian experiment we’ve had in the U.K. over the last year. Hopefully the USA will be less polarised under Biden than trump and his divisive politics too.
Boris/Cummings and trump aren’t the same but there are definite parallels with populist policies differentiating the people and elites and painting the judiciary the media and other government institutions as the enemies of the people. A focus on foreigners, railing against wokism, bypassing or trying to bypass government checks and balances and change traditional government institutions.
Both Trump and Boris/Cummings governments discouraged dissenting views and the resulting echo chambers and group think led to poor decisions and alienated the core government decision makers from the rest of government and the population.
Bill said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I mean if only there was a way you could have guessed at his character and judgement before voting for him
They voted for a man who is a known and proven liar and who has absolutely no discernible moral compass and somehow expected that he would do the right thing by them and appear genuinely surprised when he doesn't.
Better for Johnson to realise he's made a mistake now which is still too late and attempt to fix it than later which is much too late and can't be fixed.
don'tbesilly said:
768 said:
I can't keep up with who people think is Boris' puppet master from one hour to the next at the moment.
The names of those people change as often as the hours as well, although Larry the cat has as yet not been mentioned, so I'll get in first Looks like Cummings was Boris’s puppet master since the brexit campaign and now Carrie has finally got rid of him and is the main one influencing Boris.
It can’t be a new concept to either of you that Cummings has had too much influence in government recently?
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:Bill said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I mean if only there was a way you could have guessed at his character and judgement before voting for him
They voted for a man who is a known and proven liar and who has absolutely no discernible moral compass and somehow expected that he would do the right thing by them and appear genuinely surprised when he doesn't.
Better for Johnson to realise he's made a mistake now which is still too late and attempt to fix it than later which is much too late and can't be fixed.
‘It’s different THIS time because he’s promising what I want’
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me 17 times.....
anonymoususer said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: But he's still got his pass so he's coming back isn't he? Isn't he? Isn't he? Dom?
Funnily enough there was a genuine pop up thing on one of the mainstream news sites that he hadnt left and would be in employment till mid December.So I pondered the possibility he was working from home
ClaphamGT3 said:
JagLover said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
To your second point, I think this is why too large a group of cabinet to ignore list patience and pushed hard for him to go. Pretty much since the election and certainly since Covid a centre-right group has emerged in cabinet who have been at odds with the the more radical elements of the PMs agenda .
So pretty much since the election which they won with this "radical agenda" they have been agitating to change it. Some things never change, and politicians thinking the manifestos they stand on are a series of lies to fool the electorate is one of them it appears.
On the future relationship with the EU
2019Manifesto said:
There will be no political alignment with the EU. We will keep the UK out of the single market, out of any
form of customs union, and end the role of the European Court of Justice.
This future relationship will be one that
allows us to:
 Take back control of our laws.
 Take back control of our money.
 Control our own trade policy.
 Introduce an Australian-style points based immigration system.
 Raise standards in areas like workers’
rights, animal welfare, agriculture and
the environment.
 Ensure we are in full control of our
fishing waters.
On immigrationform of customs union, and end the role of the European Court of Justice.
This future relationship will be one that
allows us to:
 Take back control of our laws.
 Take back control of our money.
 Control our own trade policy.
 Introduce an Australian-style points based immigration system.
 Raise standards in areas like workers’
rights, animal welfare, agriculture and
the environment.
 Ensure we are in full control of our
fishing waters.
Conservative2019manifesto said:
Only by establishing immigration controls and ending freedom of movement will we be able to attract
the high-skilled workers we need to contribute to our economy, our communities and our public services.
There will be fewer lower-skilled migrants and overall numbers will come down. And we will ensure that the British
people are always in control.
the high-skilled workers we need to contribute to our economy, our communities and our public services.
There will be fewer lower-skilled migrants and overall numbers will come down. And we will ensure that the British
people are always in control.
El stovey said:
don'tbesilly said:
768 said:
I can't keep up with who people think is Boris' puppet master from one hour to the next at the moment.
The names of those people change as often as the hours as well, although Larry the cat has as yet not been mentioned, so I'll get in first Looks like Cummings was Boris’s puppet master since the brexit campaign and now Carrie has finally got rid of him and is the main one influencing Boris.
It can’t be a new concept to either of you that Cummings has had too much influence in government recently?
p1stonhead said:
‘It’s different THIS time because he’s promising what I want’
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me 17 times.....
I've nothing against Cummings.
I think he's the equivalent of one of those dogs that gets let off the leash and goes nuts and mauls someone and everyone looks at the owner and asks "what were you thinking?".
Alistair Campbell on LBC now and whatever he did during office my god he sounds like the grown up in the room right now.
As he says they now have an opportunity to show what they can do by themselves which sounds bloody obvious in the context of ministers and secretaries of state but it seems to be where we're at.
don'tbesilly said:
El stovey said:
don'tbesilly said:
768 said:
I can't keep up with who people think is Boris' puppet master from one hour to the next at the moment.
The names of those people change as often as the hours as well, although Larry the cat has as yet not been mentioned, so I'll get in first Looks like Cummings was Boris’s puppet master since the brexit campaign and now Carrie has finally got rid of him and is the main one influencing Boris.
It can’t be a new concept to either of you that Cummings has had too much influence in government recently?
The names changing “as often as the hours” etc seems to me like there’s only been two main influences.
You two were attempting to negate criticism of Boris by joking about other posters and them saying he’s a puppet.
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