Boris Johnson- Prime Minister (Vol. 4)
Discussion
El stovey said:
Red 4 said:
Anyone seen Van Tam lately ?
Maybe his very public criticism of Cummings was a strategic move on his part to distance himself from government/ be kept out of the limelight because he knows what is coming.
He seems quite principled. Maybe he got fed up of the dishonesty and lack of accountability going on in government regarding the Cummings issue. Maybe his very public criticism of Cummings was a strategic move on his part to distance himself from government/ be kept out of the limelight because he knows what is coming.
One thing is for certain though, Boris set his stall out very early on. It was odd that government advisors were at odds with most of the other experts concerning the timing of lockdown and the lacklustre approach (following business rather than leading the way, etc etc).
I wonder how much political pressure Whitty and Vallance were really under.
Tuna said:
A significant portion of the regular posters on this thread are critics of Boris, and quite rightly, a significant portion of the posts on here are critical of Boris. What do you want me to do, chime in with "good post" whenever anyone says he's done a bad job? 
It’s just that you’re constantly doing the opposite and actually supporting him, which makes it look like look like you’re trying to stop criticism of him and his government’s handling of the pandemic. b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: Absolutely right the population and density is different.
What difference does that make on why we don't have a working app?
Please note not a perfect app just a working and available one.
Like Germany for example.
It is indeed inexplicable why the head of NHSX has not been hung drawn and quartered at this stage, but Germany is not getting any results from their app at the moment. The reasons for ours being delayed was insufficient take up when they trialled it (the chosen tech stack making it a terrible user experience on Apple phones in particular). However, Germany cannot claim that their app has solved the take-up problem (yes it works, but people are still not using it in sufficient numbers), and the fact that Singapore are looking at pushing the use of physical tracker devices suggests they're having the same issues despite being much more socially aware of disease prevention.What difference does that make on why we don't have a working app?
Please note not a perfect app just a working and available one.
Like Germany for example.
That's why population density is important - the issue is not how much we've spent on cool tech widgets, but whether they're working and appropriate for the situation. Understanding that the situation is different, and what the important outcome we're looking for from these things is a step towards solving the problem. Not understanding that ends up with us trying to chase the wrong solution - which may well be the case in Germany. There is difference between 'working' and 'solving the problem' - heavens know I've suffered enough engineers who deliver 'working' solutions.
Tuna said:
A significant portion of the regular posters on this thread are critics of Boris, and quite rightly, a significant portion of the posts on here are critical of Boris. What do you want me to do, chime in with "good post" whenever anyone says he's done a bad job?
As far as I'm concerned, he's been missing in action for the last six months. Some of that may be down to the pandemic overriding pretty much everything else, and him being ill - but it's concerning. I'm more concerned about his actions over the next six months - or lack of them. I'm broadly happy with the handling of the Brexit negotiations so far, but we're a long way from the finish line yet. The jury remains out.
What you won't find me doing is cheering or deriding every last speech and fart he makes. Partly because he's shambolic and I expect an inconsistent performance, but equally because I've no desire to join the peanut gallery. The weekly review of how PMQs went is utterly pointless from my point of view.
That does tend to mean I have very little patience for the posts on here that fret about every little detail as though the shocking revelation that his hair's a mess is cause for a snap general election. We knew what we were getting into when he was elected, none of this should be news. What should be news is how well his strategy pans out for Brexit, reform of the civil service, provision of government services and infrastructure investment, but this is a long game and whilst I am concerned, I've not got the evidence yet for where this is all going.
No I don't.As far as I'm concerned, he's been missing in action for the last six months. Some of that may be down to the pandemic overriding pretty much everything else, and him being ill - but it's concerning. I'm more concerned about his actions over the next six months - or lack of them. I'm broadly happy with the handling of the Brexit negotiations so far, but we're a long way from the finish line yet. The jury remains out.
What you won't find me doing is cheering or deriding every last speech and fart he makes. Partly because he's shambolic and I expect an inconsistent performance, but equally because I've no desire to join the peanut gallery. The weekly review of how PMQs went is utterly pointless from my point of view.
That does tend to mean I have very little patience for the posts on here that fret about every little detail as though the shocking revelation that his hair's a mess is cause for a snap general election. We knew what we were getting into when he was elected, none of this should be news. What should be news is how well his strategy pans out for Brexit, reform of the civil service, provision of government services and infrastructure investment, but this is a long game and whilst I am concerned, I've not got the evidence yet for where this is all going.
But I also don't expect people to chime in suggesting that the concerns and issues with PPE were some kind of media creation and in focussing on the media and some of their lines of questioning it's easy to give the Government a free pass from the real failings.
You'll notice I don't comment much on Brexit or the Civil Service or other stuff any more because he has a mandate to do that stuff.
I'd still like to think that if he f
ks it up I can criticise him for it and I'd still like to think that if it's a roaring success I'll give him credit for it.Where I massively struggle with Covid-19 is the tone and perception around cliches like "it's only half time" and "Johnson doesn't write apps or personally order and collect PPE so you can't blame him for any failings".
I am of course paraphrasing before you ask me where anyone has said that.
He's literally the Prime Minister of the country.
When you see a s
t show unfolding before your eyes with tens of thousands of dead who else are people supposed to hold accountable?If you don't want to look like you're defending the man maybe just stop writing stuff that looks like you're defending the man.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I was just reading about how Singapore are looking at wearables to complement their app.
Coronavirus: Why Singapore turned to wearable contact-tracing tech
Meanwhile given the head-start from looking at other countries and the toolset from Apple and Google what do we have?
Ironic that you post "toolset from Apple and Google". While posting a link to an article showing a government abandoning mobile phone based app tracing as it doesn't work given the constraints imposed by Apple.Coronavirus: Why Singapore turned to wearable contact-tracing tech
Meanwhile given the head-start from looking at other countries and the toolset from Apple and Google what do we have?
BBC said:
owners of Apple's devices are likely to be among others asked to use the dongles in the near future.
Almost as if all you can do is post criticism without understanding what it is you are citing. Tuna said:
It is indeed inexplicable why the head of NHSX has not been hung drawn and quartered at this stage, but Germany is not getting any results from their app at the moment. The reasons for ours being delayed was insufficient take up when they trialled it (the chosen tech stack making it a terrible user experience on Apple phones in particular). However, Germany cannot claim that their app has solved the take-up problem (yes it works, but people are still not using it in sufficient numbers), and the fact that Singapore are looking at pushing the use of physical tracker devices suggests they're having the same issues despite being much more socially aware of disease prevention.
That's why population density is important - the issue is not how much we've spent on cool tech widgets, but whether they're working and appropriate for the situation. Understanding that the situation is different, and what the important outcome we're looking for from these things is a step towards solving the problem. Not understanding that ends up with us trying to chase the wrong solution - which may well be the case in Germany. There is difference between 'working' and 'solving the problem' - heavens know I've suffered enough engineers who deliver 'working' solutions.
So why do you think the Government response hasn't been to explain all of those things to us like adults rather than silently kicking it into the long grass where I think a junior minister mentioned at a committee hearing that we "might" have something by winter and it was no longer a priority?That's why population density is important - the issue is not how much we've spent on cool tech widgets, but whether they're working and appropriate for the situation. Understanding that the situation is different, and what the important outcome we're looking for from these things is a step towards solving the problem. Not understanding that ends up with us trying to chase the wrong solution - which may well be the case in Germany. There is difference between 'working' and 'solving the problem' - heavens know I've suffered enough engineers who deliver 'working' solutions.
The point about the head of NHSX might be a fair one as I appreciate that Boris and Hancock probably don't code in their spare time.
But that doesn't excuse yet another podium performance promising us a "world beating" system that appears to be based on (apparently mostly unsuccessful) telephone contact.
It's another one of those where however you try to explain it it doesn't take away from the fact that it just looks like a total massive f
k up from start to finish.Tuna said:
That does tend to mean I have very little patience for the posts on here that fret about every little detail as though the shocking revelation that his hair's a mess is cause for a snap general election.
It's relevant although hardly a cause for an election. He looks like a fat Worzel Gummidge whilst every other MP I have seen looks presentable.Hardly a good look for the leader of the nation. I'm sure he could have sorted his hair out with a bit of thought.
While he's at it he could try and find a suit that actually fits.
El stovey said:
It’s just that you’re constantly doing the opposite and actually supporting him, which makes it look like look like you’re trying to stop criticism of him and his government’s handling of the pandemic.
That's a fair point. I am... rather direct in saying things 
When I remember to, I do occasionally apologise (and I'm sure I owe enough people on here a beer to start a brewery!). However, don't confuse that abrasiveness for trying to stop criticism. Heli's version of that was that I was trying to "silence debate" when I disagreed with him. I've got a different view, that's all. Tell me where I'm wrong, or what I'm missing.
Thinking about it. every one of the leaders I've voted for in the last three decades have turned out to be terrible individuals. They still got my vote at the start though... maybe listen to what I do, and do the opposite.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: We all know there is an issue with the Apple tech.
So where's the Android app?
Everybody focuses on the iPhone issues but the point is we have nothing.
The problem is it has to be an all or nothing thing. So where's the Android app?
Everybody focuses on the iPhone issues but the point is we have nothing.
If I produce an app that only works on half of the phones out there, it will never deliver sufficient coverage to give me the necessary information for track and trace to work.
Tuna said:
The problem is it has to be an all or nothing thing.
If I produce an app that only works on half of the phones out there, it will never deliver sufficient coverage to give me the necessary information for track and trace to work.
I'd imagine some of that comes down to whether you're relying on phones or wearables as a nirvana or as a supplement to other technologies.If I produce an app that only works on half of the phones out there, it will never deliver sufficient coverage to give me the necessary information for track and trace to work.
At face value this appears a pretty reasonable take on it.
Coronavirus: Does anyone have a working contact-tracing app
Are apps perfect? No.
Are they a functioning and a useful supplement to post-it notes? Apparently so.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: No I don't.
But I also don't expect people to chime in suggesting that the concerns and issues with PPE were some kind of media creation and in focussing on the media and some of their lines of questioning it's easy to give the Government a free pass from the real failings.
.
Where have I ever said PPE wasn't an issue? The problem is we've not actually got a proper picture of what (and where, and when) provision of PPE has been an issue. So we get rumour and claim and counter claim - I honestly don't know exactly what went wrong, where or why - and that is the media's job. Unless suddenly everyone on Pistonheads is either psychic or an expert, we need people with access to this information to find it out and make sense of it.But I also don't expect people to chime in suggesting that the concerns and issues with PPE were some kind of media creation and in focussing on the media and some of their lines of questioning it's easy to give the Government a free pass from the real failings.
.
Just saying "but it's a problem", is like that nonsense with Starmer saying we should test everyone in the NHS - on the surface it makes sense, but it's not actually helpful and could actually lead to some very bad decisions being made.
I'm absolutely not saying PPE issues were a media creation. I'm saying that I do not know enough to say what should have happened and who should be blamed. And that's when I end up disagreeing with people who lazily point their finger at their favourite bogeyman without having any evidence of where the problem lies.
Tuna said:
El stovey said:
It’s just that you’re constantly doing the opposite and actually supporting him, which makes it look like look like you’re trying to stop criticism of him and his government’s handling of the pandemic.
That's a fair point. I am... rather direct in saying things When I remember to, I do occasionally apologise (and I'm sure I owe enough people on here a beer to start a brewery!). However, don't confuse that abrasiveness for trying to stop criticism. Heli's version of that was that I was trying to "silence debate" when I disagreed with him. I've got a different view, that's all. Tell me where I'm wrong, or what I'm missing.
Thinking about it. every one of the leaders I've voted for in the last three decades have turned out to be terrible individuals. They still got my vote at the start though... maybe listen to what I do, and do the opposite.
If the usuals didn't post such stupid, blinkered nonsense, there'd be a lot less posts from people feeling like they have to challenge or ask questions about those assertions, and that's probably where most of the "defence" of the government comes from. There's very little defence of Boris personally.
Tuna said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Are they a functioning and a useful supplement to post-it notes? Apparently so.
Dancing on the head of a pin there.article said:
How effective they are remains to be seen, but they are certainly functioning
If the information changes I'll change my mind.
What I'm not doing is promising we'll have the bestest world beating system by June and then nothing but tumbleweed and excuses when by June we actually have a pile of post-it notes and a bunch of people from Serco making phone calls.
Tuna said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: We all know there is an issue with the Apple tech.
So where's the Android app?
Everybody focuses on the iPhone issues but the point is we have nothing.
The problem is it has to be an all or nothing thing. So where's the Android app?
Everybody focuses on the iPhone issues but the point is we have nothing.
If I produce an app that only works on half of the phones out there, it will never deliver sufficient coverage to give me the necessary information for track and trace to work.
Tuna said:
Where have I ever said PPE wasn't an issue? The problem is we've not actually got a proper picture of what (and where, and when) provision of PPE has been an issue. So we get rumour and claim and counter claim - I honestly don't know exactly what went wrong, where or why - and that is the media's job. Unless suddenly everyone on Pistonheads is either psychic or an expert, we need people with access to this information to find it out and make sense of it.
Boris' untold £millions that he was going to give to the NHS following his Brexit victory never arrived.Remember the slogan on the big bus ?
They prioritised other stuff over stocks of PPE.
Tuna said:
Where have I ever said PPE wasn't an issue? The problem is we've not actually got a proper picture of what (and where, and when) provision of PPE has been an issue. So we get rumour and claim and counter claim - I honestly don't know exactly what went wrong, where or why - and that is the media's job. Unless suddenly everyone on Pistonheads is either psychic or an expert, we need people with access to this information to find it out and make sense of it.
How do you see that happening when the way Boris and his team are speaking is one of "lessons learned" and "now is not the time" and when people on here give the perception of an easy ride with trite phrases like "it's only half time" when people suggest we need to know answers to those questions sooner than later?I'm a rando on the internet my opinion counts for s
t.But the idea that we should be waiting 5 years or until there's an inquiry to understand why we had nurses being told to re-use single use PPE is for the birds.
Red 4 said:
Tuna said:
Where have I ever said PPE wasn't an issue? The problem is we've not actually got a proper picture of what (and where, and when) provision of PPE has been an issue. So we get rumour and claim and counter claim - I honestly don't know exactly what went wrong, where or why - and that is the media's job. Unless suddenly everyone on Pistonheads is either psychic or an expert, we need people with access to this information to find it out and make sense of it.
Boris' untold £millions that he was going to give to the NHS following his Brexit victory never arrived.Remember the slogan on the big bus ?
They prioritised other stuff over stocks of PPE.
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