CV19 - Cure worse than the disease? (Vol 3)

[anonymous-user]

pneumothorax said:

Condi

It wasn't that there was no nuance, it just did not pass a common sense test. Folk in care homes were always sitting ducks for this.

As was anyone north of 75 yrs old with co-existing conditions.

ALL should have been isolated, self imposed and supported by us. They could have been kept at the Ritz, with hazmat room service.

The June 15th Imperial report suggests that ICU could only have coped with < 20% of critical cases without transfer of staff from electives.

Interested in your take on this? Do you think it was the right decision to suspend elective surgery for 2 months during the peak?

[ORD]

sambucket said:

The June 15th Imperial report suggests that ICU could only have coped with < 20% of critical cases without transfer of staff from electives.

Interested in your take on this? Do you think it was the right decision to suspend elective surgery for 2 months during the peak?

Would that be the peak that lasted about 2 weeks?

[anonymous-user]

ORD said:

Would that be the peak that lasted about 2 weeks?

That's one reason why I'm asking, it's a question not a statement.

[pneumothorax]

sambucket said:

The June 15th Imperial report suggests that ICU could only have coped with < 20% of critical cases without transfer of staff from electives.

Interested in your take on this? Do you think it was the right decision to suspend elective surgery for 2 months during the peak?

Sam

My experience is that elective procedures are the least of our problems.

[hutchst]

grumbledoak said:

Is this the same "top scientists" who said we would have 500,000 deaths if we didn't lockdown?

No, he was busy shagging somebody else's wife that day.

[Carl_Manchester]

isaldiri said:

Sars1 countries (hk/Taiwan/Singapore) have simply reacted much more strongly in trying to isolate and shut down outbreaks. That is the difference not immunity.

The scientist in the article above states:

“It also became known that Sars-CoV-2 had a less significant impact in areas in China where Sars-1 had previously raged. This is clear evidence urgently suggesting that our immune system considers Sars-1 and Sars-Cov-2 at least partially identical and that one virus could probably protect us from the other.
That’s when I realised that the entire world simply claimed that there was no immunity, but in reality, nobody had a test ready to prove such a statement. That wasn’t science, but pure speculation based on a gut feeling that was then parroted by everyone.“

This scientist is therefore implying that there were and still are a set of assumptions being made by other scientists who do not have enough data and then their tweets and TV interviews are being repeated by keyboard warriors as scientific fact.

Good job he doesn’t visit this thread, he might have a funny turn.

[JagLover]

grumbledoak said:

The Spruce Goose said:

Well top scientists said a lockdiwn a week earlier lockdown would have prevented up to 20k deaths, I think that on it's own highlights the back foot approach.

Is this the same "top scientists" who said we would have 500,000 deaths if we didn't lockdown?

Yep that tt Neil Ferguson trying to stay relevant by telling the media what they want to hear.

[anonymous-user]

JagLover said:

Yep that tt Neil Ferguson trying to stay relevant by telling the media what they want to hear.

Funny how he is relevant when it suits huh.

Anyway it was him and John Edmund's said the same and the stats also back it up.

[MikeT66]

pneumothorax said:

Condi

It wasn't that there was no nuance, it just did not pass a common sense test. Folk in care homes were always sitting ducks for this.

As was anyone north of 75 yrs old with co-existing conditions.

ALL should have been isolated, self imposed and supported by us. They could have been kept at the Ritz, with hazmat room service.

Yes... and driven to the Ritz in a fleet of Rolls Royces - it would still have cost us less.

Both nurses I spoke to the other weekend (neither were supporters of lockdown/masks, etc) said similar. Sorry, I know you have mentioned it before - what is your role (I assume in NHS) - it's just that there are some interesting insights from your perspective?

[Newc]

According to my calendar this is the week where we sadly lose 10's of thousands of people to an early death from CV19.

Those rash folk who threw off the safety of lockdown and sheltering behind the sofa and went outside to celebrate VE day or march in a political protest or simply go to the beach on a sunny day. They have been through the incubation period and are even now swamping the care system with their terminal pleas.

Thoughts and prayers, etc.

[bodhi]

The Spruce Goose said:

JagLover said:

Yep that tt Neil Ferguson trying to stay relevant by telling the media what they want to hear.

Funny how he is relevant when it suits huh.

Anyway it was him and John Edmund's said the same and the stats also back it up.

Is that the Professor John Edmunds who was on Channel 4 News in March discussing how the only way to beat this was herd immunity?

Fine if he's changed his mind, but seems a bit harsh to have a go at the Govt for following his initial advice, not his updated advice from a month after the pandemic hit?

Also you say the stats back him up - fancy showing your working?

[ant1973]

More Tory panic at the economy being outwith their control [in response to people who have been told to stay at home not returning to work]:-

Mr Bridgen added: 'The alternative to companies bringing people back in is bankruptcy and bankruptcy of others that rely on them.

'These are very strange decisions for company directors to take.

'Quite apart from that, if companies don't bring people back, they risk other people coming in filling gaps they have left.'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8516723/B...

It's been a while since I Iaughed outloud! The idea that someone is going to steal a march on their competitors in empty city centres is risible. Pure desperation. Doesn't look like the nudge strategy is having an impact...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8516723/B...

Meanwhile

"Councils prepare massive cuts in jobs and services after losing cash on investments in airports, cinemas and offices hit by Covid pandemic"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8516747/C...

Funny time for HMG to go all capitalist on local authorities:-

"But the Government has refused to offer them financial support, with the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government stating councils 'must properly consider the risks and opportunities when they make commercial decisions'.

Luton borough council funds around a quarter of the town's essential services through income from from London Luton airport, which partially closed its terminal building and allowed only a fraction of flights to take place amid the pandemic.

The town is set to hold an emergency meeting on Tuesday to consider a £17 million cuts proposal which will include the loss of 365 jobs.

It will also affect day centres for the vulnerable and elderly, school improvement and parenting support services.

'We were hoping we were coming out of years of austerity when Covid-19 struck,' Hazel Simmons, the leader of Luton council, said. 'It's the worst time of my whole tenure. We don't want to do any of those things.'

[smashing]

ant1973]More Tory panic at the economy being outwith their control [in response to people who have been told to stay at home not returning to work said:

:-

Mr Bridgen added: 'The alternative to companies bringing people back in is bankruptcy and bankruptcy of others that rely on them.

'These are very strange decisions for company directors to take.

'Quite apart from that, if companies don't bring people back, they risk other people coming in filling gaps they have left.'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8516723/B...

It's been a while since I Iaughed outloud! The idea that someone is going to steal a march on their competitors in empty city centres is risible. Pure desperation. Doesn't look like the nudge strategy is having an impact...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8516723/B...

Meanwhile

"Councils prepare massive cuts in jobs and services after losing cash on investments in airports, cinemas and offices hit by Covid pandemic"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8516747/C...

Funny time for HMG to go all capitalist on local authorities:-

"But the Government has refused to offer them financial support, with the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government stating councils 'must properly consider the risks and opportunities when they make commercial decisions'.

Luton borough council funds around a quarter of the town's essential services through income from from London Luton airport, which partially closed its terminal building and allowed only a fraction of flights to take place amid the pandemic.

The town is set to hold an emergency meeting on Tuesday to consider a £17 million cuts proposal which will include the loss of 365 jobs.

It will also affect day centres for the vulnerable and elderly, school improvement and parenting support services.

'We were hoping we were coming out of years of austerity when Covid-19 struck,' Hazel Simmons, the leader of Luton council, said. 'It's the worst time of my whole tenure. We don't want to do any of those things.'

I've kind of given up now and just going to sit back and watch it burn.

From the above and other economic issues to the screaming mob baying for additional legislation on people who dare not wear masks i just can't be fked anymore.

[Condi]

Oh, the country is fked. The pandemic has/will result in huge structural change to how the UK economy works, and the government tax take due to those changes. It has happened overnight and now everyone from the Government to local town councils are having to rip up their plans and look at literally what is possible with the funds they expect to receive. While central Government can borrow to buy time, smaller organisations cannot and so changes have to be more immediate.

Those words above that companies will go bust without bringing their people back to the offices are simple desperation. Companies are saving huge amounts on office costs (rent, rates, energy costs, tea and biscuits), while many have seen little or no change to the output of their employees. To somehow claim that these companies are more likely than those dragging all their staff back in to the office to go bust is obviously nonsense. The hey-days of Pret, Starbucks and Costa are over. As is a large proportion of the business rate tax income that local authorities rely on.

[monkfish1]

smashing said:

ant1973]More Tory panic at the economy being outwith their control [in response to people who have been told to stay at home not returning to work said:

:-

Mr Bridgen added: 'The alternative to companies bringing people back in is bankruptcy and bankruptcy of others that rely on them.

'These are very strange decisions for company directors to take.

'Quite apart from that, if companies don't bring people back, they risk other people coming in filling gaps they have left.'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8516723/B...

It's been a while since I Iaughed outloud! The idea that someone is going to steal a march on their competitors in empty city centres is risible. Pure desperation. Doesn't look like the nudge strategy is having an impact...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8516723/B...

Meanwhile

"Councils prepare massive cuts in jobs and services after losing cash on investments in airports, cinemas and offices hit by Covid pandemic"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8516747/C...

Funny time for HMG to go all capitalist on local authorities:-

"But the Government has refused to offer them financial support, with the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government stating councils 'must properly consider the risks and opportunities when they make commercial decisions'.

Luton borough council funds around a quarter of the town's essential services through income from from London Luton airport, which partially closed its terminal building and allowed only a fraction of flights to take place amid the pandemic.

The town is set to hold an emergency meeting on Tuesday to consider a £17 million cuts proposal which will include the loss of 365 jobs.

It will also affect day centres for the vulnerable and elderly, school improvement and parenting support services.

'We were hoping we were coming out of years of austerity when Covid-19 struck,' Hazel Simmons, the leader of Luton council, said. 'It's the worst time of my whole tenure. We don't want to do any of those things.'

I've kind of given up now and just going to sit back and watch it burn.

From the above and other economic issues to the screaming mob baying for additional legislation on people who dare not wear masks i just can't be fked anymore.

yes this ^^^^

Lots of hand wringing about the economic collapse, then decide to make it compulsory to wear masks in shops.

You couldnt make it up. Just hammer the last few nails into the coffin of the economy. Good works chaps.

And who is the Mr Brigden chap? If you have no income and no cash flow to bring people back, NOT bringing them back IS the only alternative to bankruptcy!

Edited by monkfish1 on Monday 13th July 14:02

[Elysium]

The Spruce Goose said:

JagLover said:

Yep that tt Neil Ferguson trying to stay relevant by telling the media what they want to hear.

Funny how he is relevant when it suits huh.

Anyway it was him and John Edmund's said the same and the stats also back it up.

Where exactly are the stats that back up the idea an earlier lockdown would have saved more lives?

I don't think they exist. There is no evidence that the lockdown itself provided any benefit.

[Elysium]

So Johnson is back on the masks in shops bandwagon today:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/13/bori...

Which makes you wonder why the fk they sent Gove out to tell everyone they would not be mandatory over the weekend.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53381000

This Govt seems to delight in briefing conflicting messages to the public. Somone clearly thinks this is some clever behavioural science stuff.

I am sick and tired of their bullst.

For what it is worth, I think compulsory masks are coming now. This Govt is the lowest of the low. They are beneath contempt.

[Condi]

Elysium said:

This Govt seems to delight in briefing conflicting messages to the public. Somone clearly thinks this is some clever behavioural science stuff.

You think its as clever as that? I think that there is so little co-ordination, and Johnson/Cummings are so keen that decisions are centralised while admitting he is not a details man, that his opinion changes with the wind and he will say something to the press before it is discussed internally. How often has he contradicted his own Parliament, whether that be Hancock, Gove, or whoever? He is a populist politician elected on 1 policy now totally stuck because there is no overwhelming public opinion about the virus.

[johnboy1975]

JagLover said:

Howard- said:

I've been following this thread for a long time now, and in general I agree with the rhetoric that we're overreacting as a nation. However there are certain things that make me wonder, mainly the death figures - our death toll and how it's the third highest in the world (why is that?), and the fact that almost 600,000 people round the world have died which appears to be much higher than the usual seasonal flu numbers.

Surely these deaths aren't all wrongly put down as being caused by Covid?

Up to 650,000 deaths a year from Seasonal Flu

https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/14-12-2017-up...

As a healthy adult when Flu hits you it can leave you bedridden for a week or more. If you are elderly and frail, or a young child, it can be lethal.

I am not saying that Covid-19 is only as dangerous as seasonal Flu. But if it is "only" 2-3 times as dangerous then perhaps a more rational response would be to bring in sensible measures to preserve lives rather than economic shutdown.

Edited by JagLover on Monday 13th July 08:37

Is covid19 more dangerous than flu because its more powerful (for want of a better word) or more dangerous because there's no vaccine?

Actually, *IF* you could vaccinate, wouldn't the GFR be a hell of a lot lower than flu?

[smashing]

johnboy1975 said:

Is covid19 more dangerous than flu because its more powerful (for want of a better word) or more dangerous because there's no vaccine?

Actually, *IF* you could vaccinate, wouldn't the GFR be a hell of a lot lower than flu?

Depends on a lot of factors for example Flu is really quite dangerous to children...Covid, not so much.