Tesla most valuable automaker in the world

[Electro1980]

The product is ok. It has some good points and many big issues around quality, support and supply. Tesla need to do something to improve as the big manufacturers are catching them fast. At the moment they are trading on image and the general population not realising the other options.

[RobDickinson]

Electro1980 said:

the big manufacturers are catching them fast.

Total nonsense, they are years behind in the satin red shorts market.

[Byker28i]

Murph7355 said:

RobDickinson said:

rodericb said:

The Taycan and the model 3 aren't really in the same space are they Rob? The Porsche is a larger car, has near twice the power, is a Porsche (for all the good and bad that entails). The Taycan charging is 270kW and that's marginally higher than what a Long Range model 3 can take (250kW).

Its a larger car on the outside, smaller car on the inside. only 4 seater, smaller boot etc. it can charge at a higher KW but through poorer efficiency gains range slower.

It's not targeted at anywhere near the same market. So comparison are irrelevant. I agree with some of the points you make, but this sort of comparison undermines other elements.

Where do we put equivilants? Jaguar iPace for the expensive end, got the brand name, performance and range. Mustange Mach-E?
Hyundai Kona for the cheap end with the 64Kw pack gives it Tesla 3 range for much less money?

Is this Teslas upcoming problem, when the mainstream manufactures seriously enter the market?

[p1stonhead]

Byker28i said:

Murph7355 said:

RobDickinson said:

rodericb said:

The Taycan and the model 3 aren't really in the same space are they Rob? The Porsche is a larger car, has near twice the power, is a Porsche (for all the good and bad that entails). The Taycan charging is 270kW and that's marginally higher than what a Long Range model 3 can take (250kW).

Its a larger car on the outside, smaller car on the inside. only 4 seater, smaller boot etc. it can charge at a higher KW but through poorer efficiency gains range slower.

It's not targeted at anywhere near the same market. So comparison are irrelevant. I agree with some of the points you make, but this sort of comparison undermines other elements.

Where do we put equivilants? Jaguar iPace for the expensive end, got the brand name, performance and range. Mustange Mach-E?
Hyundai Kona for the cheap end with the 64Kw pack gives it Tesla 3 range for much less money?

Is this Teslas upcoming problem, when the mainstream manufactures seriously enter the market?

It’s always been Tesla’s problem. Everyone is behind them, for now. But no one has actually bothered to really try and challenge them yet.

[RobDickinson]

MachE is smaller than the Y, slower and uses a third more battery for less range even though 2wd and that's before its out at tested by epa etc.

Porsche managed half the model S range, and failed to get close to the 2012 tesla.

The Koreans are doing OK on efficiency though

[pquinn]

RobDickinson said:

Porsche managed half the model S range, and failed to get close to the 2012 tesla.

Isn't the Porsche EPA number really low next to what people get in real life, and the Tesla EPA number is really hard to get? And the Porsche much much more consistent?

[Murph7355]

Byker28i said:

Where do we put equivilants? Jaguar iPace for the expensive end, got the brand name, performance and range. Mustange Mach-E?
Hyundai Kona for the cheap end with the 64Kw pack gives it Tesla 3 range for much less money?

Is this Teslas upcoming problem, when the mainstream manufactures seriously enter the market?

That is exactly Tesla's problem. And it's not "when" as the mainstream guys are coming on stream.

The Porsche is meant to be way ahead dynamically. This, and brand cachet (developed over decades) is why people buy them. Tesla could give the model S away for free and it would have no material impact on Taycan sales IMO.

If Tesla get the Roadster out there and it meets the claims, and if they can sort out the quality issues, then maybe that valuation will prove warranted at some point. But I'm still not convinced it isn't a lot harder for Tesla to do that sort of thing than it is for mainstream manufacturers to electrify their ranges once they have a real desire to do so (as seems to be starting).

Who knows. But will be interesting to see and will hopefully lead to better product across the board.

(There is also the issue of the changing car market generally - that's going to hurt them all eventually...).

[dukeboy749r]

You absolutely cannot argue with Elon Musk RobDickinson. He sees no one else, there is no one else - what others?

[Jau808]

dukeboy749r said:

You absolutely cannot argue with Elon Musk RobDickinson. He sees no one else, there is no one else - what others?

You can't argue with any of Elon's flying monkeys - they always come out with the same old lines, and any time there are awkward questions either divert to stupid memes or just spout 'facts' that aren't. Or screech 'Short & Distort!!!' They're also some of the biggest haters of EVs around - anything electric that isn't a Tesla is total junk in their eyes.

The rabid fanbois are one of the worst bits of the brand, and far too happy to eat any of their own that step out of line. Rich Rebuilds (interesting DIY video stuff about Teslas) was just the latest this week.


Either way the simple fact is that Tesla is rapidly getting to a point where they're somehow valued at more than the rest of the car industry put together. Even if you do believe their products are perfect, that pure electric is the future of all transport and that God King Genius Elon is the sole saviour of humanity the valuation is still bks.

[dukeboy749r]

Jau808 said:

dukeboy749r said:

You absolutely cannot argue with Elon Musk RobDickinson. He sees no one else, there is no one else - what others?

You can't argue with any of Elon's flying monkeys - they always come out with the same old lines, and any time there are awkward questions either divert to stupid memes or just spout 'facts' that aren't. Or screech 'Short & Distort!!!' They're also some of the biggest haters of EVs around - anything electric that isn't a Tesla is total junk in their eyes.

The rabid fanbois are one of the worst bits of the brand, and far too happy to eat any of their own that step out of line. Rich Rebuilds (interesting DIY video stuff about Teslas) was just the latest this week.


Either way the simple fact is that Tesla is rapidly getting to a point where they're somehow valued at more than the rest of the car industry put together. Even if you do believe their products are perfect, that pure electric is the future of all transport and that God King Genius Elon is the sole saviour of humanity the valuation is still bks.

I think this is what I should have said (see above)

[Murph7355]

dukeboy749r said:

Jau808 said:

dukeboy749r said:

You absolutely cannot argue with Elon Musk RobDickinson. He sees no one else, there is no one else - what others?

You can't argue with any of Elon's flying monkeys - they always come out with the same old lines, and any time there are awkward questions either divert to stupid memes or just spout 'facts' that aren't. Or screech 'Short & Distort!!!' They're also some of the biggest haters of EVs around - anything electric that isn't a Tesla is total junk in their eyes.

The rabid fanbois are one of the worst bits of the brand, and far too happy to eat any of their own that step out of line. Rich Rebuilds (interesting DIY video stuff about Teslas) was just the latest this week.


Either way the simple fact is that Tesla is rapidly getting to a point where they're somehow valued at more than the rest of the car industry put together. Even if you do believe their products are perfect, that pure electric is the future of all transport and that God King Genius Elon is the sole saviour of humanity the valuation is still bks.

I think this is what I should have said (see above)

I'd suggest not fighting fire with fire is the only sensible way forwards.

If some people want to see nothing but good, let them. Counter with balanced, sensible argument and leave it out there. Let people make their own minds up after that.

Anyone neutral will be able to read the replies and decide which way to lean. If everyone simple perpetuates the spat, all of it gets dismissed.

[dukeboy749r]

Murph7355 said:

I'd suggest not fighting fire with fire is the only sensible way forwards.

If some people want to see nothing but good, let them. Counter with balanced, sensible argument and leave it out there. Let people make their own minds up after that.

Anyone neutral will be able to read the replies and decide which way to lean. If everyone simple perpetuates the spat, all of it gets dismissed.

Sage words

[phil4]

It's well over a year away, but my plan for my current car's replacement (currently a mk7.5 Golf R), is a Tesla Model 3.

Why?
Overall, I like the idea of going EV. Not having to go to a petrol station to fill up, but do it at home etc.

So why a Tesla?
A few reasons:

- Firstly, the performance/0-60 for the price. Yes, I could spend less on a VW ID3, but they're middling performance. Ideally I'd like something more like my Golf, but in EV form.

- Tech, I don't just mean the EV tech, I mean the whole OTA software updates, dash display with great interface, Sat Nav that looks great, and geared to getting you where you need. Autopilot cruise control (or self drive which I wasn't planning on getting). etc.

- The warranty that's not automatically voided by not servicing it.

- The way they can be bought without going near a dealer.

I'm not saying other manufacturers can't do the same, they can and do, but usually only one aspect from the list above, and usually more expensive... but no one seems to be able to achieve all the above, as well as Tesla does, for the price.

[Jau808]

I can see the arguments, but then again you can get the Polestar 2 now instead of a Model 3.

That said it's still early days for those so all sorts of horror stories might come out about the Polestar.

[RobDickinson]

Mkay pat yourselves on the back for figuring it all out and it's totally fanbois who've pushed the share price so high, totally not institutions. Oh no.

There also not going to be in the sp500 soon either and that totally won't affect anything.

Also the rest of the industry has totally caught them up just look at the polestar 2, I mean its almost as quick, costs more, needs a larger battery, weighs 300kg more, doesn't go as far, and is 4 years newer..

[p1stonhead]

RobDickinson said:

Mkay pat yourselves on the back for figuring it all out and it's totally fanbois who've pushed the share price so high, totally not institutions. Oh no.

There also not going to be in the sp500 soon either and that totally won't affect anything.

Also the rest of the industry has totally caught them up just look at the polestar 2, I mean its almost as quick, costs more, needs a larger battery, weighs 300kg more, doesn't go as far, and is 4 years newer..

Comments like this is exactly why people suspect it’s fanboys pushing the price up

There is no rational thinking behind it at all. They can’t be reasoned with.

[RobDickinson]

I tried reasoning it doesn't work here.

Look, tesla are making 20% gross on USA made cars, looking at up to 40% on their Chinese made ones. How much do you think geely are making on the polestar 2 right now?

[gregs656]

RobDickinson said:

I tried reasoning it doesn't work here.

Look, tesla are making 20% gross on USA made cars, looking at up to 40% on their Chinese made ones. How much do you think geely are making on the polestar 2 right now?

How much were they making on USA made cars in March when the shares were $360?

What has changed since yesterday even?

[p1stonhead]

gregs656 said:

RobDickinson said:

I tried reasoning it doesn't work here.

Look, tesla are making 20% gross on USA made cars, looking at up to 40% on their Chinese made ones. How much do you think geely are making on the polestar 2 right now?

How much were they making on USA made cars in March when the shares were $360?

What has changed since yesterday even?

Also at $900 a few weeks before it crashed to $360?

Lots of fanboys thought $750-800 was the new ‘support’ when it was at $900 and it wouldn’t drop back.

Then it went to a third of its price.

It’s all over the place.

Similar obsessive fans were once saying Bitcoin wouldn’t fall below its $20k peak a couple years back.

I

[NRS]

gregs656 said:

RobDickinson said:

I tried reasoning it doesn't work here.

Look, tesla are making 20% gross on USA made cars, looking at up to 40% on their Chinese made ones. How much do you think geely are making on the polestar 2 right now?

How much were they making on USA made cars in March when the shares were $360?

What has changed since yesterday even?

Lots of big name companies had massive falls like that to March. Not a fanboi, and no idea where the real value of Tesla is, but it's a very specific date to try and prove a point when you ignore you're picking a date at the bottom of probably an economic cycle when there was huge amounts of uncertainty. The price reflects a certain view of expansion - if that comes true it's likely a bit low. If it fails then it'll drop. People have been saying for years that Tesla will be caught - so far it's not true. I also presume one benefit to Tesla is they won't inherit large costs from a long running company - no employees on DB pensions etc. So although they have been burning money to catch up and have a range of cars people don't view this as wasted money in the same way. And yes, there is a bunch of money from fanbois - but that just means Tesla is perhaps safer, as they'll keep pumping any money into it to keep it going - great for a company that is guzzling money in an expansion stage.