Tesla most valuable automaker in the world
Discussion
TheRainMaker said:
Tesla the most unreliable car manufacture according to JD Power
250 faults per 100 cars well above the industry average of 166.
https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/25/21302804/tesla-...
Shame really as they have done a massive amount of good to make EV cars more mainstream.
"jbcarioca, Monday at 9:14 AM250 faults per 100 cars well above the industry average of 166.
https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/25/21302804/tesla-...
Shame really as they have done a massive amount of good to make EV cars more mainstream.
My comments are based on having worked with JD Power on behalf of a major OEM luxury vehicles.
In this and other JD Power related comments nobody seems to be understanding what the 233 question initial quality survey (IQS) really is. It includes all items with equal weight and specifically includes:
U.S. Initial Quality Study (IQS)
By survey definition, 'problems' are defined to explicitly include 'learning curve' issues, and weighs any learning curve issues as 'problems. Four of the nine categories are ones that make into problems anything at all that requires reading or learning anything to [use] the vehicle. For that reason, and no other, the rankings reflect vehicle differences from generic simple vehicles. That means that cheap simple vehicles are the ones with the best ratings and complex or unusual ones have poor ratings. Check out the rankings and you'll see that is the major influencer of rankings.
Thus almost no highly ranked vehicle ever can have high ratings and the most unusual and/or most technologically advanced one will be at the bottom. A Tesla is the definitive unusual and technologically advanced vehicle so it will be at the bottom of the IQS.
Similarly the vehicles with highest loyalty measured by any reputable surveys tend to be inversely correlated with their IQS ratings.
For years Porsche, Mercedes Benz and BMW higher end models held the relative positions similar to those of Tesla today.
Starting in the early 1990's that began to change, although the general relationships have not. Why? The answer is simple: manufacturers began to design vehicles to optimize IQS. Thus brands such as Lexus, the first to design for IQS, made controls as simple as possible and did everything they could to eliminate anything unusual in any way. Others did not, and sought distinction and increased functions. Those, like BMW and Porsche, suffered in IQS but gained in owner loyalty.
For understandable but misguided reasons JD Power retained the name IQS and continued to represent it as something related to actual manufacturing quality or defects. Those are included, but all the ranking differences tend to relate to the four categories of Climate, Driving Assistance, features/controls/displays and Infotainment. Again, why?
Simply stated the actual quality of vehicle construction has risen by orders of magnitude in the last two decades because increased quality control and increased cost efficiency are closely related and have been assisted by increased automation and other quality control techniques. So, the differentiating factors have essentially nothing to do with actual quality.
Why, then all the endless complaints about poor Tesla quality? I think there are four principal factors: 1) until about 2014 Tesla Model S had quite a few problems, until ~2017 Model X had FWD etc, in 2017 Model 3 had 'production hell'. That sequence of manufacturing and technology learning curves was true. 2) Operating a Tesla is different than other vehicles and many of our prized features, like FSD, are Beta; nobody else has the willingness to allow customers to use something before ti is 'bulletproof'
3) The Fudsters and other negative people seek to magnify anything at all and create negatives if they can. 4) Tesla eschews the dealer system. That makes customer service odd and unconventional as does the online initiation for nearly all encounters.
Those four have nothing much to do with the actual vehicles which is why Tesla has the highest customer satisfaction and owner enthusiasm in the industry. Of course, because owners are passionate about their Tesla vehicles, owners are also very critical, obsessively so. Thus we all complain incessantly, as do I. again, of course, most of us buy more Tesla vehicles after our first ones and then gripe about delivery issues, upgrade sequences, etc. Probably we'll all keep doing that as will the increasing numbers of new Tesla drivers. Yet again, of course, the new drivers will complain because their new Tesla does not get the 'promised range', even when the new 'P' owners are doing repeated launches in the dead of winter.
In conclusion, we ought to stop thinking the JD Power IQS has anything to do with panel gaps etc. It doesn't."
Heartily proving that there doesn't seem to be a single thread on this forum, or topic in life where the desire isn't to polarise the debate fully. Totally black or totally white, nothing else is allowed 
(Tesla seems to be being priced like a modern tech company - Facebook, Twitter etc. Whether that's a sensible thing time will tell. .com or longevity? Who knows. The only guaranteed way will be for me to invest or not. If I stick 10k into their stock, it will be gone tomorrow. If I don't, it will be worth a million times p/e
).
(Tesla seems to be being priced like a modern tech company - Facebook, Twitter etc. Whether that's a sensible thing time will tell. .com or longevity? Who knows. The only guaranteed way will be for me to invest or not. If I stick 10k into their stock, it will be gone tomorrow. If I don't, it will be worth a million times p/e
).Murph7355 said:
(Tesla seems to be being priced like a modern tech company - Facebook, Twitter etc.
Exactly. for some on here they cant understand that cars are just technology, more so now.Tesla is also battery research and manufacturing, chip design,AI/self drive, grid energy and energy supply, solar, engineering, they are building RNA microfactories in Germany.
kingofdbrits said:
It's their battery tech & factory where the value is, in the long term the Tesla car will disappear but they're betting on all manufacturers having electric cars, most people owning them and then Sheik Musk will lead the battery supply & manufacture across most, if not all car brands. Same for his plans to store enough power with batteries for large scale developments and perhaps even for part of the national grid.
Infrastructure will catch up. Some big oil companies are looking to build "giga-factories" to build batteries in order to :a) diversify revenue streams
b) decarbonise
c) capture a growth market
RobDickinson said:
Murph7355 said:
(Tesla seems to be being priced like a modern tech company - Facebook, Twitter etc.
Exactly. for some on here they cant understand that cars are just technology, more so now.Tesla is also battery research and manufacturing, chip design,AI/self drive, grid energy and energy supply, solar, engineering, they are building RNA microfactories in Germany.
Sure, a company dealing in new technology can have a high valuation despite lack of profit due to optimistic projections. But Tesla have been going 10 years now and haven't mastered the ability to make a profit. I don't care how glamorous they are, to quote Duncan Ballintine, I'm ooot.
Well people like the cars for some reason, fair enough, and everyone else has build faults and can have crappy customer service.
But the paint on the 3/Y is terrible and the build quality (alignment and assembly) is pretty notorious. Also they've looked the other way when it came to some nasty design errors - faulty Model S battery cooling tubes leaking and causing fires is the latest investigation.
I know people like to sell them as something other than a car company but their business is making and selling cars. They don't design or make batteries - they buy cells from Panasonic (Giga Nevada JV) and CATL (China), even the latest 'million mile' stuff is off the shelf CATL that anyone wanting that cell format can buy. And their self driving tech while available early and well known is still stuck at Level 2 and generally considered to be lagging at the tail end of the development curve compared to the competition. They've had some interesting ideas (OTA updates being one) but nothing that gives them control of the market.
Yes they have a charger network - you have to when you're first on the market - but that isn't an advantage when the rest of the market moves on and they become a commodity, or if they don't generate a profit.
Ultimately the stock price is disconnected from the business and has nothing to do with what they make now, the vague promises of the future or their actual financial performance. It's a bubble stock. You have retail buyers jumping in based on enthusiasm, and you have big holders like ARK talking up the price while busy selling.
However much you might love the car you can't honestly look at Tesla today and tell me it really is worth over $200 billion dollars.
But the paint on the 3/Y is terrible and the build quality (alignment and assembly) is pretty notorious. Also they've looked the other way when it came to some nasty design errors - faulty Model S battery cooling tubes leaking and causing fires is the latest investigation.
I know people like to sell them as something other than a car company but their business is making and selling cars. They don't design or make batteries - they buy cells from Panasonic (Giga Nevada JV) and CATL (China), even the latest 'million mile' stuff is off the shelf CATL that anyone wanting that cell format can buy. And their self driving tech while available early and well known is still stuck at Level 2 and generally considered to be lagging at the tail end of the development curve compared to the competition. They've had some interesting ideas (OTA updates being one) but nothing that gives them control of the market.
Yes they have a charger network - you have to when you're first on the market - but that isn't an advantage when the rest of the market moves on and they become a commodity, or if they don't generate a profit.
Ultimately the stock price is disconnected from the business and has nothing to do with what they make now, the vague promises of the future or their actual financial performance. It's a bubble stock. You have retail buyers jumping in based on enthusiasm, and you have big holders like ARK talking up the price while busy selling.
However much you might love the car you can't honestly look at Tesla today and tell me it really is worth over $200 billion dollars.
RobDickinson said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Just imagine how valuable they might become if they ever turn a profit.
Imagine if you were not so out of touch and out of date?That's a bulls
t comment by you Rob. Tesla has more losses than profits over time.Shut up with these dumb put downs given history.
hyphen said:
pquinn said:
RobDickinson said:
Its also missing the point of why tesla is worth so much. Its not (just) a car company.
True, the cars bit is just a sideline. All the profit comes from selling emissions credits to actual car companies.
Fiat Chrysler helping Tesla out and making them get a small profit
People saying Tesla is not just a car making company gets my goat.
They have a car making part that almost makes money and an energy making part from roofs that looks like dead man walking after Elon paid too much on Solar City to bale his relations out. Which is still under criminal investigation
They have a car making part that almost makes money and an energy making part from roofs that looks like dead man walking after Elon paid too much on Solar City to bale his relations out. Which is still under criminal investigation
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Making a one off 3 month profit in a year with another 3 quarters of losses is not making a profit.
They've never had a year without making a loss.
Quite, and one of their ‘profit’ quarters was due to selling regulatory credits. It’s Solar Panel business dipped to its lowest ever point while it put all its efforts into the Model 3. My friend has a 3 and the tech is mightily impressive but it’s build quality is appalling and surely that will catch up on it eventually....?They've never had a year without making a loss.
Bobtherallyfan said:
Quite, and one of their ‘profit’ quarters was due to selling regulatory credits. It’s Solar Panel business dipped to its lowest ever point while it put all its efforts into the Model 3. My friend has a 3 and the tech is mightily impressive but it’s build quality is appalling and surely that will catch up on it eventually....?
As they go more mainstream they will be branching out from the technology enthusiasts, and early adopters, to those who will expect similar build quality in a £50K Tesla than they would be in any other car at that price point. Bobtherallyfan said:
Quite, and one of their ‘profit’ quarters was due to selling regulatory credits.
Which is just a form of rent-seeking.For a company that is supposed to be disruptive tech and all very clever it does seem to be just manipulating markets and living off government money (see SpaceEx). Plenty have done that before without all the smoke and mirrors (literally, in some cases), and when things like the Cybertruck roll into view I just think that Elon Musk is the worlds biggest troller.
I'm absolutely not dissing EVs, but as their vanguard I personally think Tesla and Musk are a double-edged sword.
Edited by Evercross on Thursday 2nd July 12:56
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