Sold clocked car by franchise dealer
Discussion
Hi again,
The original post has now been removed. I’ve had some very helpful responses, thanks to those people.
I expected a few less than helpful, sarcastic, and smart-arse responses and got them. This is PistonHeads after all. That’s fine.
It can be difficult to know what to expect as recompense in these situations, especially when you’re the person involved. I posted here to help gauge what might be reasonable, because I don’t want to be unreasonable with the dealer. However, at the same time, I want to get the best outcome possible.
I told enough of the story to get what I was after, I think.
Thanks again.
The original post has now been removed. I’ve had some very helpful responses, thanks to those people.
I expected a few less than helpful, sarcastic, and smart-arse responses and got them. This is PistonHeads after all. That’s fine.
It can be difficult to know what to expect as recompense in these situations, especially when you’re the person involved. I posted here to help gauge what might be reasonable, because I don’t want to be unreasonable with the dealer. However, at the same time, I want to get the best outcome possible.
I told enough of the story to get what I was after, I think.
Thanks again.
Edited by Username... on Tuesday 14th July 23:24
The issue has come to light after 2 years? How? Could the dealer have reasonably identified the discrepancy at the time they acquired it?
They’ve offered you a refund - is this in full or partial? If it was a full refund What does that cash buy you now? A non-molested example or are you some way short of that?
They’ve offered you a refund - is this in full or partial? If it was a full refund What does that cash buy you now? A non-molested example or are you some way short of that?
Keeping in mind that 2 years have elapsed. (If discovered at the outset as the dealer I would have taken the car back)
I think if I were the dealer I'd make you an offer for the difference between the retail value now of your car with the mileage differential.
i.e. value of your car at current real mileage, less the value of your car at the higher mileage.
(as at today)
I think if I were the dealer I'd make you an offer for the difference between the retail value now of your car with the mileage differential.
i.e. value of your car at current real mileage, less the value of your car at the higher mileage.
(as at today)
Can you not just come to a financial arrangement ?
Say the difference in value between what you paid and what the car would have been worth with the real mileage ?
Plus whatever loss of value to a tainted history which will probably surface for any future buyer
Add a bit of goodwill say a couple of services.
You obviously like the car so surely keeping it will be the best option.
The dealer seems to be up front and honest, but realistically if it's a particular spec you want there may not be another out there for sale.
Say the difference in value between what you paid and what the car would have been worth with the real mileage ?
Plus whatever loss of value to a tainted history which will probably surface for any future buyer
Add a bit of goodwill say a couple of services.
You obviously like the car so surely keeping it will be the best option.
The dealer seems to be up front and honest, but realistically if it's a particular spec you want there may not be another out there for sale.
JulianHJ said:
The issue has come to light after 2 years? How? Could the dealer have reasonably identified the discrepancy at the time they acquired it?
They’ve offered you a refund - is this in full or partial? If it was a full refund What does that cash buy you now? A non-molested example or are you some way short of that?
Hi Julian,They’ve offered you a refund - is this in full or partial? If it was a full refund What does that cash buy you now? A non-molested example or are you some way short of that?
Part of the dealers used car promise is a guarantee on the cars history and a mileage check. They certainly should have picked up on the mileage discrepancy prior to the sale; selling the car means the dealer has broken the law and has undermined the brands own policy.
If I was refunded it would be very difficult to find a replacement. It seems silly, but it's a car I'd only own if bought from a main dealer and with a warranty - something I paid for during my ownership. The cost of out of warranty repairs can be high.
For me if the car is otherwise what you want and all good then I might be inclined to get an extended warranty or servicing free deal.
When you say it came to light, do you think they knew or that they were duped to a degree? Not ultimately that it matters but principle wise it might impact how I played it out.
Or if the evidence is concrete perhaps you can do a small claims court thing for the price you paid vs what you should have paid with 20K more miles on it (I've no idea if this is possible/advisable)
I personally don't think the car swap sounds like it's going to work and will likely cost you more money but the sounds of it.
These things are always exceptionally annoying and frankly you go to a dealer to avoid this, and no doubt you paid for that sort of dealer experience/reassurance but I think it's rare to find a dealer that satisfies the buyer in this case, whether that's unreasonable expectations from the buyer, or the dealer reluctance or that they got stung and so don't want to take the hit.
When you say it came to light, do you think they knew or that they were duped to a degree? Not ultimately that it matters but principle wise it might impact how I played it out.
Or if the evidence is concrete perhaps you can do a small claims court thing for the price you paid vs what you should have paid with 20K more miles on it (I've no idea if this is possible/advisable)
I personally don't think the car swap sounds like it's going to work and will likely cost you more money but the sounds of it.
These things are always exceptionally annoying and frankly you go to a dealer to avoid this, and no doubt you paid for that sort of dealer experience/reassurance but I think it's rare to find a dealer that satisfies the buyer in this case, whether that's unreasonable expectations from the buyer, or the dealer reluctance or that they got stung and so don't want to take the hit.
Username... said:
Hi Julian,
Part of the dealers used car promise is a guarantee on the cars history and a mileage check. They certainly should have picked up on the mileage discrepancy prior to the sale; selling the car means the dealer has broken the law and has undermined the brands own policy.
If I was refunded it would be very difficult to find a replacement. It seems silly, but it's a car I'd only own if bought from a main dealer and with a warranty - something I paid for during my ownership. The cost of out of warranty repairs can be high.
If they didn't intentionally sell the car with dodgy mileage (i.e. if the information available to them at the time was exactly what you were told), then I'm not sure they've broken the law.Part of the dealers used car promise is a guarantee on the cars history and a mileage check. They certainly should have picked up on the mileage discrepancy prior to the sale; selling the car means the dealer has broken the law and has undermined the brands own policy.
If I was refunded it would be very difficult to find a replacement. It seems silly, but it's a car I'd only own if bought from a main dealer and with a warranty - something I paid for during my ownership. The cost of out of warranty repairs can be high.
Was it a very low mileage where 20k made a huge difference, or a high mileage (for a 3 year old car) where 20k isn't that great a difference? Did you do any investigation yourself or get an independent HPI report? Although if fraud was involved (by the original owner, not the dealer) then you'd have very little way of getting true mileage - and the HPI warranty would be void too.
If they've offered a partial refund and you don't want that; you don't want anything they've got at the value they're offering, and want rid of the car, then what result are you actually expecting from this, a newer/better car at no cost to you - or just to completely unwind the deal to 2 years ago and get all your money back (minus an amount for 2 years use).
Is the the 430/435D you were looking at originally, or did you end up going another route?
Edited by mmm-five on Tuesday 14th July 17:33
sunbeam alpine said:
If you've had the car a couple of years and you're happy with it, wouldn't it be better to negotiate either a cash settlement to reflect the true milage, or a deal involving free servicing, or a combination of both?
A fair suggestion, but there's a number of problems with this approach. Firstly, BMW want the car back; the matter has been raised with the police and they're pursuing the original owner. Secondly, the car has likely travelled at least 40k miles without a service and oil change. There's history missing now and potentially severe wear and tear to engine internals, turbos, etc. Lastly, the car will clearly be difficult for me to sell later on. As much as I like it, I just want rid.
Username... said:
If I was refunded it would be very difficult to find a replacement. It seems silly, but it's a car I'd only own if bought from a main dealer and with a warranty - something I paid for during my ownership. The cost of out of warranty repairs can be high.
Definitely push for the warranty extension, sounds like you need it and frankly it's easier for them to provide I'd think?20K miles on top = 2 years extra warranty?
I feel for you as it brings out feelings of being stitched up despite doing the right thing/proper process!
But go back to how you felt about the car before you found this out, loads of people will have had this and never known. Assess all your options, try and fix on a reasonable to you (and it'll have to be to the dealer too unfortunately) solution and push for it and then move on.
mmm-five said:
If they didn't intentionally sell the car with dodgy mileage (i.e. if the information available to them at the time was exactly what you were told), then I'm not sure they've broken the law.
What was the difference between the claimed mileage and the actual mileage? Did you do no due diligence yourself and get an independent HPI report?
If they've offered a partial refund and you don't want that, then what result are you actually expecting from this, a newer/better car at no cost to you?
It's the dealers responsibility to carry out due diligence on vehicles they sell. Whether they knew about the alteration is irrelevant. They mis-sold a vehicle. What was the difference between the claimed mileage and the actual mileage? Did you do no due diligence yourself and get an independent HPI report?
If they've offered a partial refund and you don't want that, then what result are you actually expecting from this, a newer/better car at no cost to you?
Edited by mmm-five on Tuesday 14th July 17:26
I have always bought cars privately in the past, in which case I've always done an HPI report. However, this should not be required when buying an approved used car from a main dealer. The HPI report would likely have not picked up on the mileage alteration anyway.
I expect a replacement vehicle. I was clear where I stood financially, so were they - and they offered me a solution, now the franchise group is preventing what the local dealer was apparently prepared to do for me.
Edited by Username... on Tuesday 14th July 17:47
mmm-five said:
If they didn't intentionally sell the car with dodgy mileage (i.e. if the information available to them at the time was exactly what you were told), then I'm not sure they've broken the law.
Was it a very low mileage where 20k made a huge difference, or a high mileage (for a 3 year old car) where 20k isn't that great a difference? Did you do any investigation yourself or get an independent HPI report? Although if fraud was involved (by the original owner, not the dealer) then you'd have very little way of getting true mileage - and the HPI warranty would be void too.
If they've offered a partial refund and you don't want that; you don't want anything they've got at the value they're offering, and want rid of the car, then what result are you actually expecting from this, a newer/better car at no cost to you - or just to completely unwind the deal to 2 years ago and get all your money back (minus an amount for 2 years use).
Is the the 430/435D you were looking at originally, or did you end up going another route?
It wasn't this car.Was it a very low mileage where 20k made a huge difference, or a high mileage (for a 3 year old car) where 20k isn't that great a difference? Did you do any investigation yourself or get an independent HPI report? Although if fraud was involved (by the original owner, not the dealer) then you'd have very little way of getting true mileage - and the HPI warranty would be void too.
If they've offered a partial refund and you don't want that; you don't want anything they've got at the value they're offering, and want rid of the car, then what result are you actually expecting from this, a newer/better car at no cost to you - or just to completely unwind the deal to 2 years ago and get all your money back (minus an amount for 2 years use).
Is the the 430/435D you were looking at originally, or did you end up going another route?
Edited by mmm-five on Tuesday 14th July 17:33
The mileage discrepancy meant that the car had over double the miles than the advert suggested.
Are BMW UK aware of this? This could be somewhat embarassing them...
As you said the the BMW used approved scheme is there to avoid these type of issues and should give you piece of mind and security on the purchase, thats why you pay a premium to buy from a dealer, and more for used approved.
Curious to know how you found out the car was clocked?
As you said the the BMW used approved scheme is there to avoid these type of issues and should give you piece of mind and security on the purchase, thats why you pay a premium to buy from a dealer, and more for used approved.
Curious to know how you found out the car was clocked?
2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:
So, why isn't the answer as above?
Because I don't want to be left without a vehicle. I want the dealer to resolve the problem by supplying me with a vehicle as a replacement. This was their own suggestion and was apparently something they were prepared to do, even bearing the additional cost, until "group" were involved.Essentially, I've been led on and now they're backtracking on what was a deal - in principle.
Username... said:
2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:
So, why isn't the answer as above?
Because I don't want to be left without a vehicle. I want the dealer to resolve the problem by supplying me with a vehicle as a replacement. This was their own suggestion and was apparently something they were prepared to do, even bearing the additional cost, until "group" were involved.There's an element of leading me on and backtracking on a deal in principle.
100% if I were the dealer I'd say sorry & buy the car back from you at the value of the unclocked car.. That way there's been no harm done.
The other alternative is for you to keep the car with a discount.
For me (as a previous franchised dealer) I'd think that was very reasonable.
Sometimes in life things don't go 100% to plan.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff