Teacher decapitated in Paris by enraged parent.

[mcdjl]

Type R Tom said:

The topic of head coverings types came up at work once and my colleague said his wife was free to wear whatever head covering she likes, I asked what if she decided to wear none, she would be a sinner was his reply. Now I don't know if this is an extreme view or not but I was amazed that he would call someone he loves a sinner, it made me feel a little uncomfortable.

Met many Christians, particularly Catholics? Every single one of them is a sinner: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

[s1962a]

Kent Border Kenny said:

s1962a said:

Thats really interesting - which social settings did you meet the people that told you these?

Homosexuality - i've heard this many times, and not only from muslims. My Jamaican friends are quite vocal about this topic.

Drinking? I know muslims that drink - not sure who told you to stop drinking, as it's only forbidden for muslims not to drink, not for others

Going to Hell - that one sounds like BS

Terrorism - can you expand on what you mean by 'only have ourselves to blame'?

I think it’d be worth your time browsing the articles from Pew research.

It’s generally very high quality work, and does show that a surprisingly large fraction of Muslims hold views that we in the West generally view as problematic. The death penalty for adultery or homosexuality for example, or the need for a wife to always obey her husband.

The acceptance of suicide bombing is the big one. It’s at around 20% of Muslims who feel that it is sometimes acceptable.

In light of the data, it’s not really sensible to express incredulity when someone reports coming across the attitudes that we know to be prevalent.

I would actually value my own experience of being a muslim my whole life and knowing a lot of different people, as a bit more relevant.

Wife to always obey her husband?? Have you met any muslim ladies from the UK?

Suicide bombing - 20%? i've never met anyone with those views. Ever

I think most muslims would be happy being able to pray, wear the hijab (ladies) and have a mosque to attend.

[s1962a]

mcdjl said:

Type R Tom said:

The topic of head coverings types came up at work once and my colleague said his wife was free to wear whatever head covering she likes, I asked what if she decided to wear none, she would be a sinner was his reply. Now I don't know if this is an extreme view or not but I was amazed that he would call someone he loves a sinner, it made me feel a little uncomfortable.

Met many Christians, particularly Catholics? Every single one of them is a sinner: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

That bloke sounds like an idiot. And you had this discussion at work? Tell HR - mysogny has no place in the workplace.

[AJL308]

mcdjl said:

Type R Tom said:

The topic of head coverings types came up at work once and my colleague said his wife was free to wear whatever head covering she likes, I asked what if she decided to wear none, she would be a sinner was his reply. Now I don't know if this is an extreme view or not but I was amazed that he would call someone he loves a sinner, it made me feel a little uncomfortable.

Met many Christians, particularly Catholics? Every single one of them is a sinner: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

Which is why religion is utterly outdated bks which is not compatible with modern society. The great hope I have for the 21st Century is that by the end of it most of the world will be non religious and will see it for the ludicrous idea that it is.

[Murph7355]

s1962a said:

El stovey said:

...
I’d hoped the fall of isis and decrease in operations in the Middle East would help end all this madness but it seems like it doesn’t take much for radical Muslims to start beheading again.

It seems like many western countries have recognised that radicalisation was happening at certain mosques and targeted those leaders, maybe now there’s still problems with ghettos and groups being attracted to radical Islam due to socio economic issues like lack of father figures and poor economic outcomes etc.

These are very good points. I can see that we either try and tackle extremist Islam together, or we try and tackle the supposed 'islamification of europe' and rise in muslim population. As a muslim i'd like to focus on extremism, as it's much as my enemy as it is yours. Long beards or the Hijab is not your enemy (not the niqab, that we all seem to be wearing nowadays anyway when we go for a shop), but extremist islam is.

The issue Western (for want of a better term - it's likely not accurate to split it on these grounds) governments have with these challenges is that they continually think like Westerners about them. You can't fight ideologies that way.

ISIS didn't just spring up out of nowhere. That they broke cover and went for the whole Caliphate thing, wore the black garb and waved black flags around just gave us a traditional "target" but fighting that conventionally just pushed the ideology underground once more.

Equally, whilst I totally agree we should keep well away from further interventions in that region, at least without local powers being materially and very visibly at the forefront of any action and definitely if there is no sensible exit strategy, I'm not sure it matters any more. I'm not entirely sure it's what the current extremists have a beef about. Whether we'd intervened or not in the last few decades, I doubt it would change the Taliban being the nuggets they are, or for the extremists generally to believe it's their way or the highway.

Immigration policies and objectives were never properly thought through 50-60yrs ago. Again, the whole outlook was a "Western" one and it would have been unthinkable that this sort of st could be the outcome. Better consideration about how far integration of immigrants needed to be done a long time ago, but was ignored (I'd suggest for very selfish reasons on the part of national governments). Enoch Powell's motivations may well have been highly suspect, but I'm not convinced he was wrong on everything.

I agree that tackling the extremist angle is now the best approach. But am struggling with how that could be done. As noted, ideologies cannot be tackled through traditional means, and things like closing down the more extreme mosques etc would surely risk driving more people into their grasp. There are some interpretations of religion being pushed that are simply mutually exclusive with traditional "Western" values/beliefs. How do you cover that now without risking creating more underground tensions?

The rise in the muslim population can't be stopped when large numbers are second, third and fourth generation being born here. We could stop further immigration but that again is likely to lead to further tensions with the population already here.

Quite possibly a problem without a solution. Much like Covid is likely to end up being, it's going to become a problem we simply have to live with. Ultimately people are s. We like to get our own way. Most people just have a little boo about it when we don't and get over it. But it seems some of every colour, creed and religion will always find a way to go that step too far. Currently it's extremist muslims. Give it a decade and it'll be someone else.

[anonymous-user]

Murph7355 said:

But it seems some of every colour, creed and religion will always find a way to go that step too far. Currently it's extremist muslims. Give it a decade and it'll be someone else.

I wish I had your optimism.

[Kent Border Kenny]

s1962a said:

I would actually value my own experience of being a muslim my whole life and knowing a lot of different people, as a bit more relevant.

Wife to always obey her husband?? Have you met any muslim ladies from the UK?

Suicide bombing - 20%? i've never met anyone with those views. Ever

I think most muslims would be happy being able to pray, wear the hijab (ladies) and have a mosque to attend.

You are wrong, of course, your own anecdotal knowledge is worthless compared to high quality research involving face-to-face interviews with tens of thousands of participants.

It’s not surprising that you refuse to actually read the research, but it’s typical, and disappointing.

[JagLover]

Sam.M said:

Murph7355 said:

But it seems some of every colour, creed and religion will always find a way to go that step too far. Currently it's extremist muslims. Give it a decade and it'll be someone else.

I wish I had your optimism.

Indeed

Currently the best bet is that the problem will be exactly the same a generation from now, just larger.

[voyds9]

s1962a said:

voyds9 said:

s1962a said:

Agreed. I've never met a muslim that has expressed any extremist views, publicly or privately. Have you?

Meet a couple who told me homosexuality should be illegal
Another one who told me I should stop drinking as it was forbidden
And final I would live eternally in Hell as only Muslims go to heaven.

And quite a few who although they didn't specifically condone terrorism thought 'we' only had ourselves to blame.

Thats really interesting - which social settings did you meet the people that told you these?

Homosexuality - i've heard this many times, and not only from muslims. My Jamaican friends are quite vocal about this topic.

Drinking? I know muslims that drink - not sure who told you to stop drinking, as it's only forbidden for muslims not to drink, not for others

Going to Hell - that one sounds like BS

Terrorism - can you expand on what you mean by 'only have ourselves to blame'?

Work colleges
Taxi driver
Taxi driver/friend, to be fair he said he would be joining me as he wasn't a good Muslim

And social occasions, people who I would consider to be practising Muslims, that age where they have stopped drinking and womanising but not yet graduated to an older man of the community

[anonymous-user]

JagLover said:

Sam.M said:

Murph7355 said:

But it seems some of every colour, creed and religion will always find a way to go that step too far. Currently it's extremist muslims. Give it a decade and it'll be someone else.

I wish I had your optimism.

Indeed

Currently the best bet is that the problem will be exactly the same a generation from now, just larger.

That's certainly my take, especially if we continue to assert our cultural values over those of Islamists, Salafists and Wahabists.

By "we" I mean those who hold democratic, secular, liberal enlightenment values as primary over anything else.

[Fundoreen]

s1962a said:

voyds9 said:

s1962a said:

I'd have to disagree with you there.

How many muslims have sympathies for these acts? I've never met even one. Any normal human being would be sickened by these acts.

It's also difficult to find Trump lawn banners. Doesn't mean he won't get 230 million votes next week
What is said in public and private can be very different

Agreed. I've never met a muslim that has expressed any extremist views, publicly or privately. Have you?

There was that footage of the isrealis hi fiving on a rooftop in new york while 9/11 was going on but it got buried real quick.
Probably led to all the far fetched conspiracy theories after that.
A lot of people are pretty ignorant of world affairs so would just see some footage on a tv and react.
Its interesting that a lot of the nations like syria and iran that reacted with sympathy and offers of help were then targeted
later on as it would just confuse our policy going forward as we helped the saudis cover up their complicity.

[s1962a]

Kent Border Kenny said:

s1962a said:

I would actually value my own experience of being a muslim my whole life and knowing a lot of different people, as a bit more relevant.

Wife to always obey her husband?? Have you met any muslim ladies from the UK?

Suicide bombing - 20%? i've never met anyone with those views. Ever

I think most muslims would be happy being able to pray, wear the hijab (ladies) and have a mosque to attend.

You are wrong, of course, your own anecdotal knowledge is worthless compared to high quality research involving face-to-face interviews with tens of thousands of participants.

It’s not surprising that you refuse to actually read the research, but it’s typical, and disappointing.

Thats fair - post a link of the research and findings, and i'll take a read. I'm very much about logical and rational discussion, as you are obviously.

[s1962a]

voyds9 said:

s1962a said:

voyds9 said:

s1962a said:

Agreed. I've never met a muslim that has expressed any extremist views, publicly or privately. Have you?

Meet a couple who told me homosexuality should be illegal
Another one who told me I should stop drinking as it was forbidden
And final I would live eternally in Hell as only Muslims go to heaven.

And quite a few who although they didn't specifically condone terrorism thought 'we' only had ourselves to blame.

Thats really interesting - which social settings did you meet the people that told you these?

Homosexuality - i've heard this many times, and not only from muslims. My Jamaican friends are quite vocal about this topic.

Drinking? I know muslims that drink - not sure who told you to stop drinking, as it's only forbidden for muslims not to drink, not for others

Going to Hell - that one sounds like BS

Terrorism - can you expand on what you mean by 'only have ourselves to blame'?

Work colleges
Taxi driver
Taxi driver/friend, to be fair he said he would be joining me as he wasn't a good Muslim

And social occasions, people who I would consider to be practising Muslims, that age where they have stopped drinking and womanising but not yet graduated to an older man of the community

Fair enough. I dont know many taxi drivers so maybe thats why i haven't heard these backwards views.

[Kent Border Kenny]

s1962a said:

Thats fair - post a link of the research and findings, and i'll take a read. I'm very much about logical and rational discussion, as you are obviously.

I already mentioned that it was by Pew research, but you said that you’d not read it as you knew better from being a Muslim, which of course makes no sense.

If you are willing to try to put your bias aside though then this is the stepping off point;

https://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-mus...

[s1962a]

Kent Border Kenny said:

s1962a said:

Thats fair - post a link of the research and findings, and i'll take a read. I'm very much about logical and rational discussion, as you are obviously.

I already mentioned that it was by Pew research, but you said that you’d not read it as you knew better from being a Muslim, which of course makes no sense.

If you are willing to try to put your bias aside though then this is the stepping off point;

https://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-mus...

This is from 2013? I'll go through it

One thing though, the sample sizes are tiny. Also nothing from France or the UK?

[WinkleHoff]

Kent Border Kenny said:

s1962a said:

Thats fair - post a link of the research and findings, and i'll take a read. I'm very much about logical and rational discussion, as you are obviously.

I already mentioned that it was by Pew research, but you said that you’d not read it as you knew better from being a Muslim, which of course makes no sense.

If you are willing to try to put your bias aside though then this is the stepping off point;

https://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-mus...

There is so much data available to demonstrate the problems in the Islamic world that its hard to know what to pick out. For example, what is the excuse/reason for the persecution of the coptic Christians in Egypt? Other than bare religious persecution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Copts

Or the persecution of the Ahmadi Muslims? The infighting between Shi and Sunni?

The reality is that there isn't a single religion in the present day that has so many issues. All of the evidence is there. We can't just keep saying its down to a few religions "nutters". If there are 209m muslims world wide, and 15% have radical views, then that is a tremendous amount. The vociferous nature of the radicals is far more potent than the apathetic wider peaceful majority. But then of course we have the shades in between the two.

I have two muslim friends that aren't really considered Muslims by their peers. One is gay and had to flea his home country for fear of death. The other has to pretend she is more devout than she actually is, or her mother will disown here (said mother brought her up to believe that the rest of us infidels are all going to the hellfire. Said mother never blew anybody up etc, but had a healthy disdain for Western culture).

[s1962a]

WinkleHoff said:

Kent Border Kenny said:

s1962a said:

Thats fair - post a link of the research and findings, and i'll take a read. I'm very much about logical and rational discussion, as you are obviously.

I already mentioned that it was by Pew research, but you said that you’d not read it as you knew better from being a Muslim, which of course makes no sense.

If you are willing to try to put your bias aside though then this is the stepping off point;

https://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-mus...

There is so much data available to demonstrate the problems in the Islamic world that its hard to know what to pick out. For example, what is the excuse/reason for the persecution of the coptic Christians in Egypt? Other than bare religious persecution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Copts

Or the persecution of the Ahmadi Muslims? The infighting between Shi and Sunni?

The reality is that there isn't a single religion in the present day that has so many issues. All of the evidence is there. We can't just keep saying its down to a few religions "nutters". If there are 209m muslims world wide, and 15% have radical views, then that is a tremendous amount. The vociferous nature of the radicals is far more potent than the apathetic wider peaceful majority. But then of course we have the shades in between the two.

I have two muslim friends that aren't really considered Muslims by their peers. One is gay and had to flea his home country for fear of death. The other has to pretend she is more devout than she actually is, or her mother will disown here (said mother brought her up to believe that the rest of us infidels are all going to the hellfire. Said mother never blew anybody up etc, but had a healthy disdain for Western culture).

Did you mean to say that 2 billion muslims worldwide are not one homogenous bunch, and in fact have divisions, disagreements, and factions just like the rest of society?

[anonymous-user]

s1962a said:

Did you mean to say that 2 billion muslims worldwide are not one homogenous bunch, and in fact have divisions, disagreements, and factions just like the rest of society?

That would be unarguable, however the worst aspects of the Islamic codebase are running and that's the issue.

How do we, Muslims and non-Muslims overcome that? How can you update the code when those who are willing to kill for a cartoon see the Koran, Hadith and Sunnah as the unchangeable words of Allah and Mo?

[WinkleHoff]

Sam.M said:

s1962a said:

Did you mean to say that 2 billion muslims worldwide are not one homogenous bunch, and in fact have divisions, disagreements, and factions just like the rest of society?

That would be unarguable, however the worst aspects of the Islamic codebase are running and that's the issue.

How do we, Muslims and non-Muslims overcome that? How can you update the code when those who are willing to kill for a cartoon see the Koran, Hadith and Sunnah as the unchangeable words of Allah and Mo?

100% correct. Of course the rest of society has divisions, but they don't result in the severity and frequency of what we are seeing here. Strewth....

[Kent Border Kenny]

Sam.M said:

That would be unarguable, however the worst aspects of the codebase are running and that's the issue.
How do we, Muslims and non-Muslims overcome that?

One way to look at this is to ask what are the risk factors around a person turning to serious criminality, or this sort of random murder.

On the first point, being Muslim is a major factor. It is around ten times more likely that you will serve a prison sentence for a serious crime if you are Muslim than if you are not.
In the second case there is pretty much no probability that you will carry out this sort of attack if not Muslim.
I find it strange, knowing this, that parents would not choose to stop making their children Muslim.