Teacher decapitated in Paris by enraged parent.
Discussion
Kent Border Kenny said:
One way to look at this is to ask what are the risk factors around a person turning to serious criminality, or this sort of random murder.
On the first point, being Muslim is a major factor. It is around ten times more likely that you will serve a prison sentence for a serious crime if you are Muslim than if you are not.
In the second case there is pretty much no probability that you will carry out this sort of attack if not Muslim.
I find it strange, knowing this, that parents would not choose to stop making their children Muslim.
They say the removal of nuance is tyranny.On the first point, being Muslim is a major factor. It is around ten times more likely that you will serve a prison sentence for a serious crime if you are Muslim than if you are not.
In the second case there is pretty much no probability that you will carry out this sort of attack if not Muslim.
I find it strange, knowing this, that parents would not choose to stop making their children Muslim.
The nuance here is that Muslim means many different things
Islam
Muslim
The Umma
Salafism
Wahabism
Sunni
Shia
Ahmedi
etc etc
It would behoove anyone wishing to have this conversation to learn these phrases and what they mean.
I don't doubt the stats you've presented, but I wonder if there is more granularity to be had in the description of "Muslim" in those stats.
s1962a said:
Kent Border Kenny said:
s1962a said:
Thats really interesting - which social settings did you meet the people that told you these?
Homosexuality - i've heard this many times, and not only from muslims. My Jamaican friends are quite vocal about this topic.
Drinking? I know muslims that drink - not sure who told you to stop drinking, as it's only forbidden for muslims not to drink, not for others
Going to Hell - that one sounds like BS
Terrorism - can you expand on what you mean by 'only have ourselves to blame'?
I think it’d be worth your time browsing the articles from Pew research.Homosexuality - i've heard this many times, and not only from muslims. My Jamaican friends are quite vocal about this topic.
Drinking? I know muslims that drink - not sure who told you to stop drinking, as it's only forbidden for muslims not to drink, not for others
Going to Hell - that one sounds like BS
Terrorism - can you expand on what you mean by 'only have ourselves to blame'?
It’s generally very high quality work, and does show that a surprisingly large fraction of Muslims hold views that we in the West generally view as problematic. The death penalty for adultery or homosexuality for example, or the need for a wife to always obey her husband.
The acceptance of suicide bombing is the big one. It’s at around 20% of Muslims who feel that it is sometimes acceptable.
In light of the data, it’s not really sensible to express incredulity when someone reports coming across the attitudes that we know to be prevalent.
Wife to always obey her husband?? Have you met any muslim ladies from the UK?
Suicide bombing - 20%? i've never met anyone with those views. Ever
I think most muslims would be happy being able to pray, wear the hijab (ladies) and have a mosque to attend.
Sam.M said:
Kent Border Kenny said:
One way to look at this is to ask what are the risk factors around a person turning to serious criminality, or this sort of random murder.
On the first point, being Muslim is a major factor. It is around ten times more likely that you will serve a prison sentence for a serious crime if you are Muslim than if you are not.
In the second case there is pretty much no probability that you will carry out this sort of attack if not Muslim.
I find it strange, knowing this, that parents would not choose to stop making their children Muslim.
They say the removal of nuance is tyranny.On the first point, being Muslim is a major factor. It is around ten times more likely that you will serve a prison sentence for a serious crime if you are Muslim than if you are not.
In the second case there is pretty much no probability that you will carry out this sort of attack if not Muslim.
I find it strange, knowing this, that parents would not choose to stop making their children Muslim.
The nuance here is that Muslim means many different things
Islam
Muslim
The Umma
Salafism
Wahabism
Sunni
Shia
Ahmedi
etc etc
It would behoove anyone wishing to have this conversation to learn these phrases and what they mean.
I don't doubt the stats you've presented, but I wonder if there is more granularity to be had in the description of "Muslim" in those stats.
As I say above, we are seeing a disproportionate amount of heinous deeds coming from one particular ideology. Why? You can get more granular perhaps, but it doesn't alter that sad and worrying fact.
Sam.M said:
They say the removal of nuance is tyranny.
The nuance here is that Muslim means many different things
Islam
Muslim
The Umma
Salafism
Wahabism
Sunni
Shia
Ahmedi
etc etc
It would behoove anyone wishing to have this conversation to learn these phrases and what they mean.
I don't doubt the stats you've presented, but I wonder if there is more granularity to be had in the description of "Muslim" in those stats.
Yes, I’m aware of the differences, and the reasons for the original schism, but, for example, Wahhabism is not only an influence in ostensibly Wahhabist mosques, Saudi has been pushing to have guest speakers far wider than that.The nuance here is that Muslim means many different things
Islam
Muslim
The Umma
Salafism
Wahabism
Sunni
Shia
Ahmedi
etc etc
It would behoove anyone wishing to have this conversation to learn these phrases and what they mean.
I don't doubt the stats you've presented, but I wonder if there is more granularity to be had in the description of "Muslim" in those stats.
If we look at the Islamist conspiracy in Tower Hamlets under Lutfur Rahman, which sect do you want to blame that on?
The arguments presented here are edging very close to the No True Scotsman fallacy with suggestions that only extremists are the problem, and that any moderate Muslim who beheads anyone was clearly an extremist all along.
Very few men are rapists, but we don’t claim that the issue is not nearly exclusively a problem of males. Why do we react so differently to an issue that is nearly exclusively a problem amongst Muslims?
The granularity and sorting of sub-types may help in the identification of those likely to commit these types of act.
I'd be surprised if the likes of Palantir weren't already attempting to do this with governments using social media data.
And yes, Saudi is a right fly in the ointment with the wholesale export of Wahabist ideology through the madrassas they fund the world over.
I also agree with "moderates" having sympathy for extremists being a huge problem. I mean at that point they may as well be extremist.
It's hard for me to say this, especially as someone who is a dual national, but I'm finding it hard to argue against rescinding citizenship for those who stand so firmly against the western way of life.
We've failed to heed Karl Popper in that respect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
I'd be surprised if the likes of Palantir weren't already attempting to do this with governments using social media data.
And yes, Saudi is a right fly in the ointment with the wholesale export of Wahabist ideology through the madrassas they fund the world over.
I also agree with "moderates" having sympathy for extremists being a huge problem. I mean at that point they may as well be extremist.
It's hard for me to say this, especially as someone who is a dual national, but I'm finding it hard to argue against rescinding citizenship for those who stand so firmly against the western way of life.
We've failed to heed Karl Popper in that respect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 29th October 16:09
Sam.M said:
The granularity and sorting of sub-types may help in the identification of those likely to commit these types of act.
I'd be surprised if the likes of Palantir weren't already attempting to do this with governments using social media data.
Yes, but what if say you find that perpetrators are more likely to be, say, Sunni? You would then have to granulise that. You have to also address ingrained beliefs, passed from generation to generation, and how these support the top of the pyramid, the top of which contains the terrorism and murder. I cannot see how Western countries/governments can, in the next 500 years, ever grapple successfully with this. How can you grapple with it when Muslim communities themselves refuse to acknowledge the issue in their own midst. I have no idea. Just saying "these nutters don't represent Islam" is a meaningless sound byte. As far as the perpetrators are concerned, they DO represent it. I'd be surprised if the likes of Palantir weren't already attempting to do this with governments using social media data.
Sorry, been busy with work so haven't had time to respond in which time more atrocities have occurred.
Regarding Islam and the western world, does it fit? No.
Can you adapt to live in the western world whilst being a muslim? Yes.
My view on the matter is if you're not willing to accept what you deem "bad" of a country you move to (in this case free speech), you don't have much of an argument to sit there and take what you feel to be "good" (economic prospects, quality of life etc.), you should move on to somewhere that fits your ideals.
Regarding my "lit a fuse" comment, its in the context of the situation of France with the previous CH attacks and tensions amongst muslims and others currently occurring there. The guy lost his life for showing a picture. How ridiculous is that sentence.
A quote from the quran: "whoever takes a life—unless as a punishment for murder or mischief in the land—it will be as if they killed all of humanity; and whoever saves a life, it will be as if they saved all of humanity"
Now may I highlight that islam says you must respect the laws of the land you are in, so those killing people in the name of islam such as the teacher who sadly perished, that doesn't fly. He was following the laws of the land, in this case France and wasnt causing mischief.
I can almost guarantee there's a preacher or similar encouraging this with the USP of you will die a martyr and go to heaven, to which I say please see the quote above and actually understand it to which the whole going to heaven becomes null and void.
I'm just fed up tbh, whether it be an anders brevik, a muslim, a white supremacist in the US there is so much hate perpetuated in the world, I now struggle to see the good in it any more.
Regarding Islam and the western world, does it fit? No.
Can you adapt to live in the western world whilst being a muslim? Yes.
My view on the matter is if you're not willing to accept what you deem "bad" of a country you move to (in this case free speech), you don't have much of an argument to sit there and take what you feel to be "good" (economic prospects, quality of life etc.), you should move on to somewhere that fits your ideals.
Regarding my "lit a fuse" comment, its in the context of the situation of France with the previous CH attacks and tensions amongst muslims and others currently occurring there. The guy lost his life for showing a picture. How ridiculous is that sentence.
A quote from the quran: "whoever takes a life—unless as a punishment for murder or mischief in the land—it will be as if they killed all of humanity; and whoever saves a life, it will be as if they saved all of humanity"
Now may I highlight that islam says you must respect the laws of the land you are in, so those killing people in the name of islam such as the teacher who sadly perished, that doesn't fly. He was following the laws of the land, in this case France and wasnt causing mischief.
I can almost guarantee there's a preacher or similar encouraging this with the USP of you will die a martyr and go to heaven, to which I say please see the quote above and actually understand it to which the whole going to heaven becomes null and void.
I'm just fed up tbh, whether it be an anders brevik, a muslim, a white supremacist in the US there is so much hate perpetuated in the world, I now struggle to see the good in it any more.
TheGreatDane said:
Sorry, been busy with work so haven't had time to respond in which time more atrocities have occurred.
Regarding Islam and the western world, does it fit? No.
Can you adapt to live in the western world whilst being a muslim? Yes.
My view on the matter is if you're not willing to accept what you deem "bad" of a country you move to (in this case free speech), you don't have much of an argument to sit there and take what you feel to be "good" (economic prospects, quality of life etc.), you should move on to somewhere that fits your ideals.
Regarding my "lit a fuse" comment, its in the context of the situation of France with the previous CH attacks and tensions amongst muslims and others currently occurring there. The guy lost his life for showing a picture. How ridiculous is that sentence.
A quote from the quran: "whoever takes a life—unless as a punishment for murder or mischief in the land—it will be as if they killed all of humanity; and whoever saves a life, it will be as if they saved all of humanity"
Now may I highlight that islam says you must respect the laws of the land you are in, so those killing people in the name of islam such as the teacher who sadly perished, that doesn't fly. He was following the laws of the land, in this case France and wasnt causing mischief.
I can almost guarantee there's a preacher or similar encouraging this with the USP of you will die a martyr and go to heaven, to which I say please see the quote above and actually understand it to which the whole going to heaven becomes null and void.
I'm just fed up tbh, whether it be an anders brevik, a muslim, a white supremacist in the US there is so much hate perpetuated in the world, I now struggle to see the good in it any more.
I'm always amazed when this quote is wheeled out. Massive caveat on that one. You can kill people if they create mischief in the land. Other sections refer to what this mischief is, and rejecting the prophet is one of them (but what is "the land"?). This one aside, there is plenty of other verses in that book to be concerned about. 17:33 is a peach. Regarding Islam and the western world, does it fit? No.
Can you adapt to live in the western world whilst being a muslim? Yes.
My view on the matter is if you're not willing to accept what you deem "bad" of a country you move to (in this case free speech), you don't have much of an argument to sit there and take what you feel to be "good" (economic prospects, quality of life etc.), you should move on to somewhere that fits your ideals.
Regarding my "lit a fuse" comment, its in the context of the situation of France with the previous CH attacks and tensions amongst muslims and others currently occurring there. The guy lost his life for showing a picture. How ridiculous is that sentence.
A quote from the quran: "whoever takes a life—unless as a punishment for murder or mischief in the land—it will be as if they killed all of humanity; and whoever saves a life, it will be as if they saved all of humanity"
Now may I highlight that islam says you must respect the laws of the land you are in, so those killing people in the name of islam such as the teacher who sadly perished, that doesn't fly. He was following the laws of the land, in this case France and wasnt causing mischief.
I can almost guarantee there's a preacher or similar encouraging this with the USP of you will die a martyr and go to heaven, to which I say please see the quote above and actually understand it to which the whole going to heaven becomes null and void.
I'm just fed up tbh, whether it be an anders brevik, a muslim, a white supremacist in the US there is so much hate perpetuated in the world, I now struggle to see the good in it any more.
You say it doesn't fly, but it DOES for a number of people it would seem.
coffeebreath said:
It's almost like forced multiculturalism is a failed project of the relentless globalisation of the 20th century, and people would be a lot happier/safer if homogeneity had never been propagandised as a dirty concept.
On the BBC website there are 2 stories running1) Security guard afraid to report manchester bomber who looked suspicious for fear of being branded a racist
2) 2 balck men suing the Met for stop & search after they did a fist bump that was mistaken for a drug deal
Honestly, what a mess the whole situation is
markcoznottz said:
It would take some digging out, but the survey amongst U.K. Muslims re sympathies for suicide bombings was done by I think the ons or similar.
This one?Highlights include;
38% blame Western policy for attacks by ISIS
28% have sympathy with British Muslims leaving the UK to fight for ISIS
24% agree with the use of violence to defend their religion
22% agree with the use of the violence against “injustice” by the police
18% agree with the use of violence against those who mock Mohammed
11% agreed that those who publish pictures of Mohammed should be attacked.
Biggy Stardust said:
This Mohammed dude must be a bit of a wuss if he can't handle a little bit of piss-taking.
Here’s a list of the incidents in 2020 so far which are mainly by his adherents.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_...
coffeebreath said:
It's almost like forced multiculturalism is a failed project of the relentless globalisation of the 20th century, and people would be a lot happier/safer if homogeneity had never been propagandised as a dirty concept.
The EU has destroyed Europe with it's mass immigration / free movement policies.
Kent Border Kenny said:
Biggy Stardust said:
This Mohammed dude must be a bit of a wuss if he can't handle a little bit of piss-taking.
Here’s a list of the incidents in 2020 so far which are mainly by his adherents.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_...
TheGreatDane said:
A quote from the quran: "whoever takes a life—unless as a punishment for murder or mischief in the land—it will be as if they killed all of humanity; and whoever saves a life, it will be as if they saved all of humanity"
Mischief in the land?I guess it depends on the definition of mischief, the perception appears to be that showing cartoons is several stages above mischief.
It pains me to say it but the only solution I can see to the problem of Islam in Europe is to ban it and extinguish it from Europe. Whether or not that is achievable at this point is up for debate. The religion is simply poison and incompatible. A poor 70 year old woman decapitated...what I would do to get the s
t bag alone in a room.
Slovakia have the right idea. Good on them. The rest of us are completely fked. It doesn't shock me any more at all, it's expected even. We allowed this to happen unchallenged.
t bag alone in a room.Slovakia have the right idea. Good on them. The rest of us are completely f
ked. It doesn't shock me any more at all, it's expected even. We allowed this to happen unchallenged.danllama said:
It pains me to say it but the only solution I can see to the problem of Islam in Europe is to ban it and extinguish it from Europe. Whether or not that is achievable at this point is up for debate.
Slovakia have the right idea. Good on them. The rest of us are completely fked. It doesn't shock me any more at all, it's expected even. We allowed this to happen unchallenged.
In the 2001 census, 1 in 10 school kids in the UK were muslim. Guess what the figure will be for the census in 2021? Slovakia have the right idea. Good on them. The rest of us are completely f
ked. It doesn't shock me any more at all, it's expected even. We allowed this to happen unchallenged.shock horror
maybe you should leave whilst you still can without getting circumcised and having to pray 5 times a day.
amgmcqueen said:
coffeebreath said:
It's almost like forced multiculturalism is a failed project of the relentless globalisation of the 20th century, and people would be a lot happier/safer if homogeneity had never been propagandised as a dirty concept.
The EU has destroyed Europe with it's mass immigration / free movement policies.
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