46th President of the United States, Joe Biden

[Gameface]

Like many on here I'm a right leaning voter from the UK.

But it's not about right or left is it. Certainly not for me.

It's about recognising a when I see one.

It really is as simple as that.

[captain_cynic]

I've said for a while now, there isn't a conflict between right and left, by and large these concepts as political dividers have fallen by the wayside. The conflict is between extremists and moderates. The extremists want to try to draw people away from moderate politics by creating an "us vs them" scenario and the only way they know how is to accuse you of being something they hate.

Limsip and his ilk are prime examples of this.

Don't bother trying to reason with them, they left reason behind long ago. Don't even bother replying, they aren't even worth the wind of your fart.

[GroundZero]

McGee_22 said:

LimSlip said:

paulguitar said:

It's a totally ridiculous comparison, nobody on the planet could possibly come close to trump's iness. He divided the USA probably beyond repair and left an entire party in tatters and a significant part of the population literally unable or unwilling to separate fact from fiction, living in a self/trump-created land of fantasy.

The damage trump did to the USA is immeasurable.

And he's still living in the spacious brain cavity of lefty's. Do you think you'll get over him during your life?

You should genuinely be ashamed of yourself for writing this - America is probably at it's most divided since the Civil War and it is down to Trump - and all you want to do is make childish comments about lefties - you are part of the brain-dead and blinkered who cannot see beyond making a cheap and petty insult when all around you is in disarray and in many cases burning down.

It is a strange argument to put forward that it is all Trump though.
What about the large numbers of people who simply have a common political outlook that doesn't align with the left wing over in the USA? They may simply see Trump as the only 'vehicle' in which to change existing policies and to introduce new ones that cater for their viewpoint on where the USA should be?

I don't think our 'outside' UK viewpoint can override the 'native' viewpoint that many americans live day in and day out.

To say Trump is a mastermind of a leader and is feeding everything from the top down is giving Trump a massive bonus, placing him seemingly as one of history's great leader, in the sense that he can lead a vast number of people so adoringly. But I don't think those that oppose Trump would go anywhere near that accreditation for him.
Instead, it is more likely that Trump basically voices a common held set of narratives that many who are not on the left wing in America also feel. So there is a strong following from the bottom up rather than a great leader from the top down.

[Gameface]

[quote=GroundZero]
It is more likely that Trump basically voices a common held set of narratives that many who are not on the left wing in America also feel. /quote]

Racism being the primary one.

[GroundZero]

Gameface said:

GroundZero said:

It is more likely that Trump basically voices a common held set of narratives that many who are not on the left wing in America also feel.

Racism being the primary one.

Then what you will have to accept, under your argument, is that many (if not all) americans who voted for Trump are racist. That is over 74 million votes for Trump, does that make over 74 million racists?
If that is your intended reply to the situation then the argument both for Trump or for Biden is lost which ever way you look at it.

[Gameface]

GroundZero said:

Gameface said:

GroundZero said:

It is more likely that Trump basically voices a common held set of narratives that many who are not on the left wing in America also feel.

Racism being the primary one.

Then what you will have to accept, under your argument, is that many (if not all) americans who voted for Trump are racist. That is over 74 million votes for Trump, does that make over 74 million racists?
If that is your intended reply to the situation then the argument both for Trump or for Biden is lost which ever way you look at it.

I don't have to accept that at all.

[Crafty_]

I agree to a point that Trump didn't suddenly create all of his followers, just like all the people that agree with Sanders (for example) didn't just suddenly appear.

What Trump has done is to appeal to the wannabe outlaw/rebel "No-ones gonna tell me what to do/take my guns" and governmental/"dark" conspiracy theorists and make them believe their world is going to come crashing down if "the far left" retain/take control. Some people have been radicalised, no doubt of that.
Those who are right leaning go with it, because whilst their own beliefs may be more moderate they're still closer to the far right than the left.

As for Biden, he's a career politician - he'll get stuff wrong and screw things up like they all do. In public at least, he's middle of the road and has already been criticised by the far left.

At the moment the GOP is going down the far right route, because the likes of McConnell and McCarthy because (at least at state/local level) they believe they can paint the Democrats and the current administration in a bad light and regain control of the Senate. While Trump is bringing money in to the party, they're not going to stop embracng him.
People like Hawley, and Cruz are riding the coat tails for now, but sooner or later they'll make a bid for themselves and then the squabbling will break out and Cru'z wife will probably get called ugly again..

[Not-The-Messiah]

Crafty_ said:

I agree to a point that Trump didn't suddenly create all of his followers, just like all the people that agree with Sanders (for example) didn't just suddenly appear.

What Trump has done is to appeal to the wannabe outlaw/rebel "No-ones gonna tell me what to do/take my guns" and governmental/"dark" conspiracy theorists and make them believe their world is going to come crashing down if "the far left" retain/take control. Some people have been radicalised, no doubt of that.
Those who are right leaning go with it, because whilst their own beliefs may be more moderate they're still closer to the far right than the left.

As for Biden, he's a career politician - he'll get stuff wrong and screw things up like they all do. In public at least, he's middle of the road and has already been criticised by the far left.

At the moment the GOP is going down the far right route, because the likes of McConnell and McCarthy because (at least at state/local level) they believe they can paint the Democrats and the current administration in a bad light and regain control of the Senate. While Trump is bringing money in to the party, they're not going to stop embracng him.
People like Hawley, and Cruz are riding the coat tails for now, but sooner or later they'll make a bid for themselves and then the squabbling will break out and Cru'z wife will probably get called ugly again..

He not middle of the road though is he? he as just agreed government spending the likes the US as ever seen. He's trying to turn the US is to a European style welfare state and will probably bankrupt the country doing it.
The democrats in terms of traditional US politics are off the rails. Trump policies where far more centrist in American terms but people where blinded by is character to see it.

I keep seeing people saying Trump was the worse president in history but by what metric?
The biggest argument they have he divided the nation. But only in the same way Brexit divided ours. By people not excepting a decision that went against them.

[amgmcqueen]

McGee_22 said:

LimSlip said:

paulguitar said:

It's a totally ridiculous comparison, nobody on the planet could possibly come close to trump's iness. He divided the USA probably beyond repair and left an entire party in tatters and a significant part of the population literally unable or unwilling to separate fact from fiction, living in a self/trump-created land of fantasy.

The damage trump did to the USA is immeasurable.

And he's still living in the spacious brain cavity of lefty's. Do you think you'll get over him during your life?

You should genuinely be ashamed of yourself for writing this - America is probably at it's most divided since the Civil War and it is down to Trump - and all you want to do is make childish comments about lefties - you are part of the brain-dead and blinkered who cannot see beyond making a cheap and petty insult when all around you is in disarray and in many cases burning down.

Sorry i can't agree that. The division in American along with the rest of the western world has been brewing for decades.

Globalization, job losses, wage stagnation, wealth inequality, political correctness, big brother, social media, climate extremism, wokism, racism, Marxism, nationalism, mass immigration etc, etc.

The seeds of division were sown many moons ago, Trump(and Brexit)was a symptom of that imo not the cause. In fairness he didn't start the fire but he did fan the flames!

[paulguitar]

Not-The-Messiah said:

I keep seeing people saying Trump was the worse president in history but by what metric?

You don't have to go too much further than two impeachments, trying to steal the lost election and inciting a deadly insurrection.


There's a lot more, but that seems to seal up the accolade of the worst president in history without more being required.

[thewarlock]

Not-The-Messiah said:

I keep seeing people saying Trump was the worse president in history but by what metric?

He lost the pop vote twice.
He lied, constantly.
He incited an insurrection.
He voilated the emoulements clause of the US Constitution.
He tols us that windmills caused cancer.
He told us for years, that his new healthcare proposal was coming. It never did.
He told us repeatedly that COVID wasn't a problem, that it would just go away.

I mean, do you really need me to go on?

[HM-2]

Not-The-Messiah said:

The democrats in terms of traditional US politics are off the rails.

Not-The-Messiah said:

Trump policies where far more centrist in American

I'm not sure which of these two statements is the more ridiculous.

[Crafty_]

Not-The-Messiah said:

he as just agreed government spending the likes the US as ever seen. He's trying to turn the US is to a European style welfare state and will probably bankrupt the country doing it.
The democrats in terms of traditional US politics are off the rails. Trump policies where far more centrist in American terms but people where blinded by is character to see it.

At the same time as ignoring calls to write of all student debt and make college education free for everyone.

Money for infrastructure - electric supply and distribution, supply of drinking water, aiding affordable housing, helping small businesses - in particular in terms of workforce development. Money to provide care for disabled and eldery people. Credits for pre-school places and child care. Support to feed kids in low incomes families during school holidays etc.

Hardly a welfare state is it ? At worst its more like the USA is some decades behind the rest of the world and this catches up a bit.

Yes its a lot of money, but it reaches out 15 years. No, I don't expect absolutely everything will get through either.

It might seem some sort of socialist hellhole to you, but for most people it looks pretty normal.

[GroundZero]

Crafty_ said:

At the moment the GOP is going down the far right route, ...

Wondering what "far right" means here?
What policies or actions are the GOP proposing for their current government opposition or even their future campaign that would place them as far-right?

[Crafty_]

GroundZero said:

Wondering what "far right" means here?
What policies or actions are the GOP proposing for their current government opposition or even their future campaign that would place them as far-right?

How about imposing vioter restrictions, based on unproven allegations of fraud? https://www.politico.com/news/2021/02/28/trump-gop...

Arizona is currently under going an audit, part of which is looking for fibres of bamboo on the basis that someone alleged thusands of voter slips had been imported from China.
No, this isn't an theonion article, its real.

[HM-2]

GroundZero said:

Crafty_ said:

At the moment the GOP is going down the far right route, ...

Wondering what "far right" means here?
What policies or actions are the GOP proposing for their current government opposition or even their future campaign that would place them as far-right?

This report published in Foreign Policy a couple of months ago makes for an interesting read.

[conkerman]

amgmcqueen said:

Sorry i can't agree that. The division in American along with the rest of the western world has been brewing for decades.

Globalization, job losses, wage stagnation, wealth inequality, political correctness, big brother, social media, climate extremism, wokism, racism, Marxism, nationalism, mass immigration etc, etc.

The seeds of division were sown many moons ago, Trump(and Brexit)was a symptom of that imo not the cause. In fairness he didn't start the fire but he did fan the flames!

You make a st Billy Joel.

[anonymous-user]

thewarlock said:

He lost the pop vote twice.
He lied, constantly.
He incited an insurrection.
He voilated the emoulements clause of the US Constitution.
He tols us that windmills caused cancer.
He told us for years, that his new healthcare proposal was coming. It never did.
He told us repeatedly that COVID wasn't a problem, that it would just go away.

I mean, do you really need me to go on?

Wow!

Is that what you believe?

[JeffreyD]

digimeistter said:

Wow!

Is that what you believe?

Which bits are wrong?

[dvs_dave]

digimeistter said:

thewarlock said:

He lost the pop vote twice.
He lied, constantly.
He incited an insurrection.
He voilated the emoulements clause of the US Constitution.
He tols us that windmills caused cancer.
He told us for years, that his new healthcare proposal was coming. It never did.
He told us repeatedly that COVID wasn't a problem, that it would just go away.

I mean, do you really need me to go on?

Wow!

Is that what you believe?

Care to elaborate on you what you believe to be true instead?