CV19 - Cure worse than the disease? (Vol 10)

CV19 - Cure worse than the disease? (Vol 10)

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johnboy1975

8,355 posts

107 months

Tuesday 2nd March 2021
quotequote all
R Mutt said:
If they have managed to track this Manaus variant to a few hundred people via the test batch numbers where did the patient get the test in the first place?
Presumably a home PCR kit?

Vantagemech..

5,728 posts

214 months

Tuesday 2nd March 2021
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Alucidnation said:
Colonel Cupcake said:
Alucidnation said:
Biker 1 said:
amgmcqueen said:
If you believe that, you'll believe anything.
Hands up how many here actually wear a bloody mask in order to protect others?
Fair enough if visiting some old dear in a care home, & I can understand why hospitals might require them, but Joe Public in Asda? Really?
Why not?

If they are that ineffective, why wear one when visiting ‘some old dear’?
Doesn't the fact that hospital acquired infection is so high prove that masks don't work?

Everyone in hospital is masked up.
I agree, however, the one place that you would hope you are safe, is turning out to be one of the worst places.

Does not compute!
Over the years I've done a fair amount of car body refinishing. When spraying I'd often buy a few of the 3m double canister masks that are reusable.
Now and again I'd have to use a more inferior mask but still far greater filtration than say an old t-shirt or curtains.
Post painting I would always have nostrils colour coded to the car. Not so bad with the 3m masks but you could still tell you'd been painting, perhaps a little light headed from the fumes.

Considering some of the things that pass as a face covering, I cannot see how some of them would stop anything at all. Along with the images of someone coughing with/without masks and the % it reduces. How do they know that? Geoff Capes could inflate a bloody hot water bottle, his lungs would have blown the mask off, whereas little old granny would probably need a sit down after a sneeze...





R Mutt

5,882 posts

71 months

Tuesday 2nd March 2021
quotequote all
Thin White Duke said:
Adventure Island UK which I believe is in Southend on Sea has told talkradio that they will not require staff to have the covid vaccine. Your body, your choice is what they have said.

I'm glad that this is happening. Common sense may yet prevail.
That shouldn't have to be an exception to the rule. It's only 1 firm who have said they are mandating it so far...

R Mutt

5,882 posts

71 months

Tuesday 2nd March 2021
quotequote all
johnboy1975 said:
R Mutt said:
If they have managed to track this Manaus variant to a few hundred people via the test batch numbers where did the patient get the test in the first place?
Presumably a home PCR kit?
Yeah and how did it get to their home?! Nurses etc who are given them in bulk have tests which also generate a result at home.

Edited by R Mutt on Tuesday 2nd March 20:08

R Mutt

5,882 posts

71 months

Tuesday 2nd March 2021
quotequote all
Vantagemech.. said:
Over the years I've done a fair amount of car body refinishing. When spraying I'd often buy a few of the 3m double canister masks that are reusable.
Now and again I'd have to use a more inferior mask but still far greater filtration than say an old t-shirt or curtains.
Post painting I would always have nostrils colour coded to the car. Not so bad with the 3m masks but you could still tell you'd been painting, perhaps a little light headed from the fumes.

Considering some of the things that pass as a face covering, I cannot see how some of them would stop anything at all. Along with the images of someone coughing with/without masks and the % it reduces. How do they know that? Geoff Capes could inflate a bloody hot water bottle, his lungs would have blown the mask off, whereas little old granny would probably need a sit down after a sneeze...




Surely the fact that they are now suggesting double masking makes a mockery of the 'face covering' mandate. They should have mandated KN95s or not bothered. Clearly surgical masks as worn by 99% of the population are useless. Although I recently discovered Bavaria recently mandated N95 specifically which had no difference to the infection rates compared to Germany as a whole.

monkfish1

10,874 posts

223 months

Tuesday 2nd March 2021
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Maybe becausae it cant, in any practical sense, be contained? All the evidence says it cant. No one has succeded.

Aside from completely eliminating human to human contact, id suggest its impossible.

Thin White Duke

2,333 posts

159 months

Tuesday 2nd March 2021
quotequote all
R Mutt said:
Thin White Duke said:
Adventure Island UK which I believe is in Southend on Sea has told talkradio that they will not require staff to have the covid vaccine. Your body, your choice is what they have said.

I'm glad that this is happening. Common sense may yet prevail.
That shouldn't have to be an exception to the rule. It's only 1 firm who have said they are mandating it so far...
Indeed but the way things have been progressing with the "vaccine everyone brigade" we need more people to go against that narrative.

R Mutt

5,882 posts

71 months

Tuesday 2nd March 2021
quotequote all
monkfish1 said:
Maybe becausae it cant, in any practical sense, be contained? All the evidence says it cant. No one has succeded.

Aside from completely eliminating human to human contact, id suggest its impossible.
A lot of examples cited as gold standards of lockdown, but usually just used as a comparison to undermine our response and I'm not sure they're comparable. Did any country really limit contact of the general public much more than we did? Many hold up APAC countries as success stories but seem to conflate early lockdown and quarantine with long hard lockdowns, which are still in force, which hardly points to prior success, rather adherence to a 'Zero COVID' strategy which such British commentators endorse for reasons I can't quite grasp

R Mutt

5,882 posts

71 months

Tuesday 2nd March 2021
quotequote all
Thin White Duke said:
R Mutt said:
Thin White Duke said:
Adventure Island UK which I believe is in Southend on Sea has told talkradio that they will not require staff to have the covid vaccine. Your body, your choice is what they have said.

I'm glad that this is happening. Common sense may yet prevail.
That shouldn't have to be an exception to the rule. It's only 1 firm who have said they are mandating it so far...
Indeed but the way things have been progressing with the "vaccine everyone brigade" we need more people to go against that narrative.
Well this really hinges on vaccine passports, so many businesses will sadly sign up to such a policy when there is a means to enforce is. Which is why that must never happen

pocty

1,117 posts

278 months

Tuesday 2nd March 2021
quotequote all
isaldiri said:
pocty said:
No just old people dying of old age. Just like they did before corona. Imagine if you could give 80 year old people a vaccine that could make them all live for 16 years more.

Pocty
Odd how 'old age' suddenly killed far more people in the last 12months than in previous years though isn't it.....?
Is this still the case? old people will still keep on dying of old age. No doubt covid is real but to think that a lot of old frail people wont die after taking the vaccine is bonkers.

Pocty

Jasandjules

69,825 posts

228 months

Tuesday 2nd March 2021
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Ah but whom do they want to be scared? One person, or one nation?

Square Leg

14,673 posts

188 months

Tuesday 2nd March 2021
quotequote all
R Mutt said:
Vantagemech.. said:
Over the years I've done a fair amount of car body refinishing. When spraying I'd often buy a few of the 3m double canister masks that are reusable.
Now and again I'd have to use a more inferior mask but still far greater filtration than say an old t-shirt or curtains.
Post painting I would always have nostrils colour coded to the car. Not so bad with the 3m masks but you could still tell you'd been painting, perhaps a little light headed from the fumes.

Considering some of the things that pass as a face covering, I cannot see how some of them would stop anything at all. Along with the images of someone coughing with/without masks and the % it reduces. How do they know that? Geoff Capes could inflate a bloody hot water bottle, his lungs would have blown the mask off, whereas little old granny would probably need a sit down after a sneeze...




Surely the fact that they are now suggesting double masking makes a mockery of the 'face covering' mandate. They should have mandated KN95s or not bothered. Clearly surgical masks as worn by 99% of the population are useless. Although I recently discovered Bavaria recently mandated N95 specifically which had no difference to the infection rates compared to Germany as a whole.
Might be a pretend picture, but...
Sure I heard, right at the beginning of all this, someone say it’s like stopping a gnat with sheep netting.

I wear one though, as I need to get my Chorizo Thins from Waitrose.


Otispunkmeyer

12,555 posts

154 months

Tuesday 2nd March 2021
quotequote all
Vantagemech.. said:
Over the years I've done a fair amount of car body refinishing. When spraying I'd often buy a few of the 3m double canister masks that are reusable.
Now and again I'd have to use a more inferior mask but still far greater filtration than say an old t-shirt or curtains.
Post painting I would always have nostrils colour coded to the car. Not so bad with the 3m masks but you could still tell you'd been painting, perhaps a little light headed from the fumes.

Considering some of the things that pass as a face covering, I cannot see how some of them would stop anything at all. Along with the images of someone coughing with/without masks and the % it reduces. How do they know that? Geoff Capes could inflate a bloody hot water bottle, his lungs would have blown the mask off, whereas little old granny would probably need a sit down after a sneeze...




I haven’t got them too hand but there are lab studies showing their efficacy. These are controlled lab experiments in fume cupboards with manikin heads. They can show reduction both in and out. Good efficacy. Though it’s quite literally curtains for the home made masks, haha, that old t-shirt really isn’t up to much when you can see daylight between the fibres.

Home made ones are of course poor even in the lab tests, but the blue surgical masks and N95 types do well…IF worn properly. More on that later.

Quick Note: efficacy denotes performance in controlled conditions. Effectiveness denotes performance once applied to real world. In short I think efficacy and effectiveness of masks are quite different.

The problem i see, is there seems to be a bit of a dearth of real world study that really backs mask effectiveness up beyond a maybe. I mean fine, I accept the lab results but it’s no good it working there but not out in the real world. Part of the issue, I think, is background noise: many more uncontrolled variables at play. And part will be that proper mask wearing guidelines seem to have been poorly delivered, if at all, so no one is using them in the best way possible.

I mean how many people know you should be disposing of the blue masks after 4-6hrs of use? (there are a few papers showing their effectiveness degrades after this time, and it’s PHE advice), That you should be washing those cloth reusable ones at least once a day? That you should be storing the mask folded neatly inside a ziplock bag? (Some of this is PHE advice, some CDC etc).

Almost no one I know is doing this. It’s the same blue mask they picked up from somewhere, for free, 4 weeks ago and they’re crumpling it into their coat pocket with hanky and old sweet wrappers. I see guys at work with snazzy, but increasingly manky looking home made cloth numbers.

I suspect, that masks do have an effect as proven by lab results. But the combination of real world and poor practice really can’t help their case. Maybe to the extent that their effectiveness is just reduced to being lost in the noise.




Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Tuesday 2nd March 20:35

Jasandjules

69,825 posts

228 months

Tuesday 2nd March 2021
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Well as we know pandemics die out in 12-24 months as a rule, so they will now hail their vaccine a success (and crow how they beat nasty Europe to get it - two birds with one lie) and then show a dropping mortality rate (as it will drop in any event over the coming months).. Hey presto our Govt saved us.



anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 2nd March 2021
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
No doubt. Yet everybody accepts we intern tens of thousands of grannies at any one time, who've forgetten who they, or we are. This is seen as caring and looking after society. Yet if it was your dog it'd be less food bills on Winalot and an enriched vet.

But no, we need to keep these frail vessels alive at all costs, lest they don't get chance to prolonge the suffering.

Vantagemech..

5,728 posts

214 months

Tuesday 2nd March 2021
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Sorry, my post wasn't saying masks don't work, just the ones worn as protection allow breath out of every direction ( steamed up glasses anyone? smile ) So little use.
I still think it's spread because a carrier looks more like this than someone coughing up a kidney.

gazapc

1,319 posts

159 months

Tuesday 2nd March 2021
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Bavaria mandated N95 masks.
If it is clear proper masks work how do we explain this graph. If they work so well surely we should see a material difference in infections.

Otispunkmeyer

12,555 posts

154 months

Tuesday 2nd March 2021
quotequote all
Square Leg said:
Might be a pretend picture, but...
Sure I heard, right at the beginning of all this, someone say it’s like stopping a gnat with sheep netting.

I wear one though, as I need to get my Chorizo Thins from Waitrose.

I might be wrong here, and I am applying some of my DPF knowledge, but I’m sure the filtration efficiency curves for masks are like a U shape or V shape but skewed over a bit toward the smaller particles.

Essentially, stops big particles whole sale (impaction) and then as you get smaller the efficiency drops, but it still catches a majority, through collision. The larger particles can get trapped by their momentum stopping them from changing direction and as you go smaller still, you get interception collision: particles travelling on flow lines that pass by the filter obstruction at a distance that is less than the particle radius.

As you go lower, you go past a minimum efficiency and then it starts to go back up again. I think this is because Really really small stuff undergoes Brownian motion (randomly walking all over the place) otherwise known as diffusion, and that means that they have more chance of getting stuck on the filter surface.

I don’t know how they rate masks though, I assume they have to specify that efficacy at the inflection point?

But anyway, just to point out that just because a particle can pass through the filter material gaps, doesn’t mean the filter material doesn’t do anything.

Elysium

13,755 posts

186 months

Tuesday 2nd March 2021
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Texas is open for business. Yeehaw!

https://twitter.com/gregabbott_tx/status/136684690...

RSTurboPaul

10,219 posts

257 months

Tuesday 2nd March 2021
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140 mothers go for a walk in Wantage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRGCVYMVWlQ


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