CV19 - Cure worse than the disease? (Vol 10)

CV19 - Cure worse than the disease? (Vol 10)

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Jasandjules

69,825 posts

228 months

Saturday 6th March 2021
quotequote all
FlabbyMidgets said:
Seeing in the news I'll likely need a vaccine to go on holiday with my mates in the summer means I'll get it begrudgingly.
And this is why the nation is so pathetic. People have no desire to stand up for what is right they simply roll over and accept anything.

Ntv

5,177 posts

122 months

Saturday 6th March 2021
quotequote all
i4got said:
981C said:
Ntv said:
Yes. And on top of the rate on the RHS, one has to remember a larger % of the pop are aged 60 plus now than 20-30 years ago

I assume the pandemic ran for the 13 years up tot 2003
And then came back a bit, but not as bad, last year?
It's age-corrected, is it not?
yes
I haven’t read the notes, but no I don’t think it is

It is simply number of deaths per capita. Third column arrived at by dividing first column by second column

danny tattersall

731 posts

255 months

Saturday 6th March 2021
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
FlabbyMidgets said:
Seeing in the news I'll likely need a vaccine to go on holiday with my mates in the summer means I'll get it begrudgingly.
And this is why the nation is so pathetic. People have no desire to stand up for what is right they simply roll over and accept anything.
I wholeheartedly agree. In my opinion the introduction of vaccine passports shouldn't even be up for discussion. Unfortunately, people don't seem to be able to see further than the end of their noses, so despite disagreeing with the principle of it they take the easy option and roll over.

Taylor James

3,111 posts

60 months

Saturday 6th March 2021
quotequote all
danny tattersall said:
Jasandjules said:
FlabbyMidgets said:
Seeing in the news I'll likely need a vaccine to go on holiday with my mates in the summer means I'll get it begrudgingly.
And this is why the nation is so pathetic. People have no desire to stand up for what is right they simply roll over and accept anything.
I wholeheartedly agree. In my opinion the introduction of vaccine passports shouldn't even be up for discussion. Unfortunately, people don't seem to be able to see further than the end of their noses, so despite disagreeing with the principle of it they take the easy option and roll over.
Yep, some serious protesting might be the only way to put a stop to it.

Boringvolvodriver

8,619 posts

42 months

Saturday 6th March 2021
quotequote all
danny tattersall said:
Jasandjules said:
FlabbyMidgets said:
Seeing in the news I'll likely need a vaccine to go on holiday with my mates in the summer means I'll get it begrudgingly.
And this is why the nation is so pathetic. People have no desire to stand up for what is right they simply roll over and accept anything.
I wholeheartedly agree. In my opinion the introduction of vaccine passports shouldn't even be up for discussion. Unfortunately, people don't seem to be able to see further than the end of their noses, so despite disagreeing with the principle of it they take the easy option and roll over.
Correct - self interest will always come first and the psychologists know that which is why they present the narrative the way they do.

I sent an email to my Tory MP about the Covid Status Certification review (aka vaccine passports) and his reply was as follows

“ Thank you for your email, comments and concerns.

First of all can I say that they government aren't considering these actions. They have asked for a review on the subject to fully understand what implications of a vaccination passport/certification will have on the UK citizens.

The reasons for this is because we need to fully understand what ramifications not having some form of proof of vaccine will have on the general public.

For example, the insurance industry has already indicated that not having a vaccine will effect insurance premiums on a personal level. Insurance is a risk based business so it is thought that premiums for personal insurance will be higher for those who are higher risk - similar to life insurance of those who smoke compared to those who don't. Similarly, travel insurance is based on personal risk so it is envisaged higher premiums there for people who don't vaccinate. The aim of the review is to establish the best way for people in circumstances like these to prove they have been vaccinated.
We have already also heard that Care companies are starting to insist that carers going into care home must be vaccinated to continue working for them to reduce the risk of death to the clients - something NHS workers already have to sign up to and have always had to.

You've also mentioned international travel. Whilst the aim is for us not to insist on a vaccination passport, due to the success of our vaccination programme compared to many countries, it may have to become a necessity to protect UK citizens from those who come here who are a much higher risk. This is also the aim of the review.

We also know that many countries, including the EU have expressed the desire for visitors to their countries to have proof of vaccination before entry. The challenge becomes of how we implement that for the many millions of trips UK citizens make to those countries - a bit like the requirement for Yellow Fever vaccination certificate if you travel to many African countries.

I don't think you need to fear the loss of liberties by need such documentation to visit the pub for example but as you can see from the instances above there will be 'natural' loss by those who chose to not take the vaccine.

That’s why the review is taking place. Nobody is taking away people's right to refuse the vaccine but like everything in life, there will be ramifications which will happen as a matter of course

I hope this clarifies”

Make of that what you will - I am not convinced - if they were adamant they weren’t going to have them, then why mention them? Or am I being too cynical?

Toyoda

1,557 posts

99 months

Saturday 6th March 2021
quotequote all
danny tattersall said:
Jasandjules said:
FlabbyMidgets said:
Seeing in the news I'll likely need a vaccine to go on holiday with my mates in the summer means I'll get it begrudgingly.
And this is why the nation is so pathetic. People have no desire to stand up for what is right they simply roll over and accept anything.
I wholeheartedly agree. In my opinion the introduction of vaccine passports shouldn't even be up for discussion. Unfortunately, people don't seem to be able to see further than the end of their noses, so despite disagreeing with the principle of it they take the easy option and roll over.
+1. It's amazing how subservient many people in this country are these days. If you genuinely want the vaccine then have it but if you don't then don't bloody have it. The coercion to have it in the world of work should be met with the same refusal although I'm sure many will fall in line for fear of any repercussions.

alangla

4,723 posts

180 months

Saturday 6th March 2021
quotequote all
Newc said:
Seeing (uncorroborated) reports about the initial impacts of the school testing.

It seems that if the child has a positive LF test, but follows up with a PCR which is negative, then track+trace will try and insist that the entire household still has to isolate.

That's going to go well.
Nick Triggle seems to have picked up on this:
https://twitter.com/nicktriggle/status/13682066746...

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 6th March 2021
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
FlabbyMidgets said:
Seeing in the news I'll likely need a vaccine to go on holiday with my mates in the summer means I'll get it begrudgingly.
And this is why the nation is so pathetic. People have no desire to stand up for what is right they simply roll over and accept anything.
Getting vaccinated is the right thing to do.

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 6th March 2021
quotequote all
Toyoda said:
danny tattersall said:
Jasandjules said:
FlabbyMidgets said:
Seeing in the news I'll likely need a vaccine to go on holiday with my mates in the summer means I'll get it begrudgingly.
And this is why the nation is so pathetic. People have no desire to stand up for what is right they simply roll over and accept anything.
I wholeheartedly agree. In my opinion the introduction of vaccine passports shouldn't even be up for discussion. Unfortunately, people don't seem to be able to see further than the end of their noses, so despite disagreeing with the principle of it they take the easy option and roll over.
+1. It's amazing how subservient many people in this country are these days. If you genuinely want the vaccine then have it but if you don't then don't bloody have it. The coercion to have it in the world of work should be met with the same refusal although I'm sure many will fall in line for fear of any repercussions.
I expect vaccine passports/tests will ultimately be down to commercials. If most young families don’t want their kids injected, and themselves, to go on holiday, the holiday firms and airlines will soon drop the idea, as will those countries like Cyprus wanting it. Tourism can’t survive off pensioners alone, the family market is huge.

The alternative of a pcr test is a massive pain in the arse. You can’t take it until 72 hours before your flight, so the risk of having a positive and losing your holiday is very real. Plus you wont know immediately what the result is, maybe 24 hours before you fly. LFT isn’t much better, rock up at the airport, take a test and find you’re positive would be a bit of an issue if it’s your family 2 weeks summer holiday... this is all geared around people who can mess about with holiday changes, work schedules and test results, not families with school age children.

isaldiri

18,411 posts

167 months

Saturday 6th March 2021
quotequote all
Ntv said:
i4got said:
981C said:
Ntv said:
Yes. And on top of the rate on the RHS, one has to remember a larger % of the pop are aged 60 plus now than 20-30 years ago

I assume the pandemic ran for the 13 years up tot 2003
And then came back a bit, but not as bad, last year?
It's age-corrected, is it not?
yes
I haven’t read the notes, but no I don’t think it is

It is simply number of deaths per capita. Third column arrived at by dividing first column by second column
Er there is a column called 'age standardised mortality rate?

Boringvolvodriver

8,619 posts

42 months

Saturday 6th March 2021
quotequote all
ruprechtmonkeyboy said:
Jasandjules said:
FlabbyMidgets said:
Seeing in the news I'll likely need a vaccine to go on holiday with my mates in the summer means I'll get it begrudgingly.
And this is why the nation is so pathetic. People have no desire to stand up for what is right they simply roll over and accept anything.
Getting vaccinated is the right thing to do.
Please explain to me why the NHS leaflet I received says that I don’t need it then?

Ntv

5,177 posts

122 months

Saturday 6th March 2021
quotequote all
isaldiri said:
Ntv said:
i4got said:
981C said:
Ntv said:
Yes. And on top of the rate on the RHS, one has to remember a larger % of the pop are aged 60 plus now than 20-30 years ago

I assume the pandemic ran for the 13 years up tot 2003
And then came back a bit, but not as bad, last year?
It's age-corrected, is it not?
yes
I haven’t read the notes, but no I don’t think it is

It is simply number of deaths per capita. Third column arrived at by dividing first column by second column
Er there is a column called 'age standardised mortality rate?
Lol.- my phone only showed the first three columns and I’ve just swiped right to see a fourth!

You’ll see my comments are in reference to the first three columns

Biker 1

7,693 posts

118 months

Saturday 6th March 2021
quotequote all
I won't even bother leaving the country this year & will defer the vaccine invitation for as long as is possible, as I don't see it as necessary given my personal risk assessment.
Holidaying in this country this summer is going to be over priced, oversubscribed & rammed to the rafters with chavs. Thank fk I have a motorcycle & a boat to escape it all with. 2 weeks with total radio silence: no phone or internet. And no PH!!

isaldiri

18,411 posts

167 months

Saturday 6th March 2021
quotequote all
Boringvolvodriver said:
Correct - self interest will always come first and the psychologists know that which is why they present the narrative the way they do.
But perhaps it is self interest that makes people feel that's not the hill worth dying on. The element of coercion is rather distasteful i fully agree (and I'd be much more willing to get it without that very crude messaging) but for me, i can understand why a lot of people, even here with perhaps a slightly different view on the virus think it's not worth the hassle. I am clearly one of that bunch - jab vs no travel or pcr test that i have to pay for pre travel? Bugger that just jab up and leave me in peace especially as we've as a country paid for the damn things many times over and I'm not having to spend more directly.

Now there's obviously the slippery slope aspect that one could argue which is entirely relevant I admit but for now, jab and get on with it? It's not a difficult decision. I'll ponder what to do if we become required to be constantly doing so every few months for all eternity but that's a problem for the future.

JuanCarlosFandango

7,787 posts

70 months

Saturday 6th March 2021
quotequote all
Alucidnation said:
i4got said:
sl0wlane said:
What does everyone make of this, certainly adds weight to the “dry tinder” theory:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgove...
Thats a really interesting set of figures. So every year from 1990 to 2010 had a higher death per 100k rate than 2020.
But what happened for it to suddenly drop off 2004> ?
Back of a mask packet, but:

If you look the age adjusted figure it isn't such a big drop. It's a steady decline.

If you look at the crude rate it may have bottomed out in the early 2010s and been creeping up, probably reflecting that the baby boomers were getting into their 70s and more likely to die.

If you average out the exceptionally low 2019 number and exceptionally high 2020 number it gets a lot closer to average.

Boringvolvodriver

8,619 posts

42 months

Saturday 6th March 2021
quotequote all
isaldiri said:
Boringvolvodriver said:
Correct - self interest will always come first and the psychologists know that which is why they present the narrative the way they do.
But perhaps it is self interest that makes people feel that's not the hill worth dying on. The element of coercion is rather distasteful i fully agree (and I'd be much more willing to get it without that very crude messaging) but for me, i can understand why a lot of people, even here with perhaps a slightly different view on the virus think it's not worth the hassle. I am clearly one of that bunch - jab vs no travel or pcr test that i have to pay for pre travel? Bugger that just jab up and leave me in peace especially as we've as a country paid for the damn things many times over and I'm not having to spend more directly.

Now there's obviously the slippery slope aspect that one could argue which is entirely relevant I admit but for now, jab and get on with it? It's not a difficult decision. I'll ponder what to do if we become required to be constantly doing so every few months for all eternity but that's a problem for the future.
I can understand that logic although are you happy to have a vaccine that hasn’t been given full approval yet and where the manufacturers have not yet accepted liability for any potential issues that may arise during what is, in my opinion, effectively an extended trial period until 2023?

I am very low risk for having serious covid, even the NHS leaflet says I don’t need it as I am not in any of the criteria they state - if I were then I would take a different view.

If it means I don’t get abroad this year, then so be it - by next year, there will be more data available on the vaccine to help me make my decision.

Jasandjules

69,825 posts

228 months

Saturday 6th March 2021
quotequote all
Boringvolvodriver said:
Make of that what you will - I am not convinced - if they were adamant they weren’t going to have them, then why mention them? Or am I being too cynical?
The last proper sentence makes it clear this is going ahead.

Boringvolvodriver

8,619 posts

42 months

Saturday 6th March 2021
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
Boringvolvodriver said:
Make of that what you will - I am not convinced - if they were adamant they weren’t going to have them, then why mention them? Or am I being too cynical?
The last proper sentence makes it clear this is going ahead.
That was my reading of it as well! There will no doubt be some weasel words around the implementation designed to make it look like it is voluntary whilst effectively making it as good as compulsory.

JuanCarlosFandango

7,787 posts

70 months

Saturday 6th March 2021
quotequote all
Boringvolvodriver said:
I can understand that logic although are you happy to have a vaccine that hasn’t been given full approval yet and where the manufacturers have not yet accepted liability for any potential issues that may arise during what is, in my opinion, effectively an extended trial period until 2023?

I am very low risk for having serious covid, even the NHS leaflet says I don’t need it as I am not in any of the criteria they state - if I were then I would take a different view.

If it means I don’t get abroad this year, then so be it - by next year, there will be more data available on the vaccine to help me make my decision.
I think you're half way down the slippery slope already.

Once you've had it and you're due another one you might as well just have it again so you can carry on as normal.

What might be interesting when (and I do mean when) there's a vaccine resistant version and we're all in lockdown again will people still take the vaccine that doesn't work anymore?


Not having a go at you. I can fully understand wanting desperately to get back to normal and would consider it myself too. But I know it will ultimately not work.

Alucidnation

16,810 posts

169 months

Saturday 6th March 2021
quotequote all
Boringvolvodriver said:
ruprechtmonkeyboy said:
Jasandjules said:
FlabbyMidgets said:
Seeing in the news I'll likely need a vaccine to go on holiday with my mates in the summer means I'll get it begrudgingly.
And this is why the nation is so pathetic. People have no desire to stand up for what is right they simply roll over and accept anything.
Getting vaccinated is the right thing to do.
Please explain to me why the NHS leaflet I received says that I don’t need it then?
How come you got a leaflet saying that?

I have members of my household that don't need it, but they certainly haven't received any leaflets about it.

Kinda goes against the plan IMO.
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