Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 2)
Discussion
crankedup said:
The other aspect of this particular element is where the work is, this brings me onto such matters as travelling to work, accommodation costs, living expenses. Oh look it’s come back to where it started now.
My daughter lives in London, as Blue states, it is difficult and expensive to find good trades for domestic jobs. She had a roof extension built, not so bad as little businesses seem set up to do that work. But any repairs required is another matter. She suggested to her brother that he lives in London as there was/is plenty of well paid work, but worked out the added costs and it didn’t pay enough.That’s the point he decided to up his skills.
Can’t you see that it’s hard to get repairs etc done as you’ve voted to get rid of the swarms of invading workers that would likely be doing that kind of work? My daughter lives in London, as Blue states, it is difficult and expensive to find good trades for domestic jobs. She had a roof extension built, not so bad as little businesses seem set up to do that work. But any repairs required is another matter. She suggested to her brother that he lives in London as there was/is plenty of well paid work, but worked out the added costs and it didn’t pay enough.That’s the point he decided to up his skills.
crankedup said:
Same reason that you continue to post in here perhaps?
Yes the EU is still causing problems, those same problems that you have been moaning about. So we seem to agree the EU is a PIA.
When our Country finally smooths out the trading problems with the EU my complaining will stop.
I’m not sure that the EU will fail completely, but I think it’s more likely then not.
What is your pov on the possible collapse of the EU, do you see it surviving given all of the problems it has stacking up?
I don’t think it will collapse, I think it will likely continue towards an increasingly federalised unit. The same phenomenon will likely happen in other parts of the world and as time goes on, the sovereignty of individual nations will continue to reduce as the concept of a nation state becomes less important to each new generation. Yes the EU is still causing problems, those same problems that you have been moaning about. So we seem to agree the EU is a PIA.
When our Country finally smooths out the trading problems with the EU my complaining will stop.
I’m not sure that the EU will fail completely, but I think it’s more likely then not.
What is your pov on the possible collapse of the EU, do you see it surviving given all of the problems it has stacking up?
crankedup said:
blueg33 said:
crankedup said:
Now that most of the immigrants have gone home I would agree that trades are now again reasonably paid. 
Except that they have been well paid for the 30 years I have been in the industry. When I was a student I used to labour on building sites, unskilled no trade just some youthful energy, I earned more than many of my school mates who went and got better regarded jobs.
During my time in the industry I have seen no evidence that qualified trades from the EU have depressed rates.
What I see now though is reduced volumes in construction because the reduction in the availability of trades is causing issues. That’s why we are moving investment and jobs out of the UK.
Reduced construction volumes will flow through to an increasing housing crisis, increasing costs result in increasing prices and less money available through s106 for community etc.
Do you run training schemes or rely upon others to train workers in the skills required. My lad was employed as an apprentice by a self employed electrician who paid him and permitted day release to learn the technical side of the job.
We run national training schemes and local schemes where we have developments, its one of our core principles along with modern slavery, health and safety and integrity. These are tested and challenged frequently all the way to the Group main board. We also run training schemes around the world (much of our Group is global) and upskill and pay locals properly. We also ensure that ALL of our contractors and subcontractors apply the same principles. They are contractually obliged to and it is followed up and checked.
Its a sad situation but we also find in the UK that many young people don't want to work in the construction industry and don't take up the training and apprenticeship opportunities.
The Living Wage Foundation in the UK has named us as an accredited Real Living Wage employer.
There was a lack of skilled labour before Brexit and there is even more of a lack now. However, there are many tradesmen who seem reluctant to work, have no pride in the job and deliver poor quality (as many new homes attest). These are the ones who find it difficult to get work or who get paid less. Just like any job, if you are good at it and have the right attitude you tend to be better paid than if you don't, whether you are an electrician, an architect, a doctor or an accountant.
We have some superb British tradesmen and some superb Europeans and some superb ones from all corners of the planet. They are all paid the same rates wherever they come from. Likewise we have crap ones with attitude problems, unfortunately for the industry these are predominantly home grown. (note this last point that this is observation rather than data driven).
So in my experience and that of my colleagues in all of the construction sectors we have worked in, FOM of labour is not a thing that has reduced pay rates. Being s
t at the job reduces payrates for individuals.If there are people who are good at their job and feel they are being underpaid, well in construction its the easiest thing ever to move to a different employer. If you have the skills and the attitude you have a well paid job for life. If you haven't you might just slip into blaming immigration "they're taking our jobs" is the cry of those that need to look closer to home as to why they are not being well rewarded in the construction industry.
blueg33 said:
The business I have managed for the last 12 years covers all of the UK with developments as far north and Aberdeen as far south and west as Plymouth, as far east as Norwich. Prior to that my responsibility was midlands through to the South West. Of course the market fluctuates, but not due to immigrant workers it fluctuates due to demand. Eg When Heathrow Terminal 5 was being built we couldn't get brickies, sparkies, chippies or plasterers as far north as Birmingham. This pushed rates up to levels that were unsustainable in the long terms and for us impacted the cost of the homes we built and the time it took to build them. When terminal 5 was complete the rates returned to the normal and still very good rate. HS2 is now starting to have a similar impact, as Crossrail also did.
We run national training schemes and local schemes where we have developments, its one of our core principles along with modern slavery, health and safety and integrity. These are tested and challenged frequently all the way to the Group main board. We also run training schemes around the world (much of our Group is global) and upskill and pay locals properly. We also ensure that ALL of our contractors and subcontractors apply the same principles. They are contractually obliged to and it is followed up and checked.
Its a sad situation but we also find in the UK that many young people don't want to work in the construction industry and don't take up the training and apprenticeship opportunities.
The Living Wage Foundation in the UK has named us as an accredited Real Living Wage employer.
There was a lack of skilled labour before Brexit and there is even more of a lack now. However, there are many tradesmen who seem reluctant to work, have no pride in the job and deliver poor quality (as many new homes attest). These are the ones who find it difficult to get work or who get paid less. Just like any job, if you are good at it and have the right attitude you tend to be better paid than if you don't, whether you are an electrician, an architect, a doctor or an accountant.
We have some superb British tradesmen and some superb Europeans and some superb ones from all corners of the planet. They are all paid the same rates wherever they come from. Likewise we have crap ones with attitude problems, unfortunately for the industry these are predominantly home grown. (note this last point that this is observation rather than data driven).
So in my experience and that of my colleagues in all of the construction sectors we have worked in, FOM of labour is not a thing that has reduced pay rates. Being st at the job reduces payrates for individuals.
If there are people who are good at their job and feel they are being underpaid, well in construction its the easiest thing ever to move to a different employer. If you have the skills and the attitude you have a well paid job for life. If you haven't you might just slip into blaming immigration "they're taking our jobs" is the cry of those that need to look closer to home as to why they are not being well rewarded in the construction industry.
Another take away from that is that FOM has also helped push up quality expectations across the board - I can see how that might irk the lazy and sloppy trades. Suspect some would even blame such workers for them no longer being able to get away with sloppy work.We run national training schemes and local schemes where we have developments, its one of our core principles along with modern slavery, health and safety and integrity. These are tested and challenged frequently all the way to the Group main board. We also run training schemes around the world (much of our Group is global) and upskill and pay locals properly. We also ensure that ALL of our contractors and subcontractors apply the same principles. They are contractually obliged to and it is followed up and checked.
Its a sad situation but we also find in the UK that many young people don't want to work in the construction industry and don't take up the training and apprenticeship opportunities.
The Living Wage Foundation in the UK has named us as an accredited Real Living Wage employer.
There was a lack of skilled labour before Brexit and there is even more of a lack now. However, there are many tradesmen who seem reluctant to work, have no pride in the job and deliver poor quality (as many new homes attest). These are the ones who find it difficult to get work or who get paid less. Just like any job, if you are good at it and have the right attitude you tend to be better paid than if you don't, whether you are an electrician, an architect, a doctor or an accountant.
We have some superb British tradesmen and some superb Europeans and some superb ones from all corners of the planet. They are all paid the same rates wherever they come from. Likewise we have crap ones with attitude problems, unfortunately for the industry these are predominantly home grown. (note this last point that this is observation rather than data driven).
So in my experience and that of my colleagues in all of the construction sectors we have worked in, FOM of labour is not a thing that has reduced pay rates. Being s
t at the job reduces payrates for individuals.If there are people who are good at their job and feel they are being underpaid, well in construction its the easiest thing ever to move to a different employer. If you have the skills and the attitude you have a well paid job for life. If you haven't you might just slip into blaming immigration "they're taking our jobs" is the cry of those that need to look closer to home as to why they are not being well rewarded in the construction industry.
DeepEnd said:
Another take away from that is that FOM has also helped push up quality expectations across the board - I can see how that might irk the lazy and sloppy trades. Suspect some would even blame such workers for them no longer being able to get away with sloppy work.
That’s the great thing about increased competition in the market, it forces people to raise their game. You’d see the same improvements in other industries with lower barriers to entry like hospitality and hard working Eastern Europeans coming to the U.K. and improving quality of service throughout the industry with their enthusiasm and work ethic. El stovey said:
crankedup said:
The other aspect of this particular element is where the work is, this brings me onto such matters as travelling to work, accommodation costs, living expenses. Oh look it’s come back to where it started now.
My daughter lives in London, as Blue states, it is difficult and expensive to find good trades for domestic jobs. She had a roof extension built, not so bad as little businesses seem set up to do that work. But any repairs required is another matter. She suggested to her brother that he lives in London as there was/is plenty of well paid work, but worked out the added costs and it didn’t pay enough.That’s the point he decided to up his skills.
Can’t you see that it’s hard to get repairs etc done as you’ve voted to get rid of the swarms of invading workers that would likely be doing that kind of work? My daughter lives in London, as Blue states, it is difficult and expensive to find good trades for domestic jobs. She had a roof extension built, not so bad as little businesses seem set up to do that work. But any repairs required is another matter. She suggested to her brother that he lives in London as there was/is plenty of well paid work, but worked out the added costs and it didn’t pay enough.That’s the point he decided to up his skills.
Now I know that the FOM filled the hole left in our lack of trades, but this came at a price. I’ve done that to death now!
Apprentice schemes are now resurrected, better late than never, and slowly slowly the trickle of good trades will return once more, but it will take time to rectify mistakes of the past.
Remaining in the EU and encouraging East Europeans to plug the trades hole was a short term
unsustainable policy. Effectively it was creating the race to the bottom which suited employers but ultimately damaged employees.
It is far better to fill the gaps using the new U.K. immigration system which will help protect the quality of trades and their wages.
crankedup said:
El stovey said:
crankedup said:
The other aspect of this particular element is where the work is, this brings me onto such matters as travelling to work, accommodation costs, living expenses. Oh look it’s come back to where it started now.
My daughter lives in London, as Blue states, it is difficult and expensive to find good trades for domestic jobs. She had a roof extension built, not so bad as little businesses seem set up to do that work. But any repairs required is another matter. She suggested to her brother that he lives in London as there was/is plenty of well paid work, but worked out the added costs and it didn’t pay enough.That’s the point he decided to up his skills.
Can’t you see that it’s hard to get repairs etc done as you’ve voted to get rid of the swarms of invading workers that would likely be doing that kind of work? My daughter lives in London, as Blue states, it is difficult and expensive to find good trades for domestic jobs. She had a roof extension built, not so bad as little businesses seem set up to do that work. But any repairs required is another matter. She suggested to her brother that he lives in London as there was/is plenty of well paid work, but worked out the added costs and it didn’t pay enough.That’s the point he decided to up his skills.
Now I know that the FOM filled the hole left in our lack of trades, but this came at a price. I’ve done that to death now!
Apprentice schemes are now resurrected, better late than never, and slowly slowly the trickle of good trades will return once more, but it will take time to rectify mistakes of the past.
Remaining in the EU and encouraging East Europeans to plug the trades hole was a short term
unsustainable policy. Effectively it was creating the race to the bottom which suited employers but ultimately damaged employees.
It is far better to fill the gaps using the new U.K. immigration system which will help protect the quality of trades and their wages.
blueg33 said:
crankedup said:
blueg33 said:
crankedup said:
Now that most of the immigrants have gone home I would agree that trades are now again reasonably paid.
Except that they have been well paid for the 30 years I have been in the industry. When I was a student I used to labour on building sites, unskilled no trade just some youthful energy, I earned more than many of my school mates who went jand got better regarded jobs.
During my time in the industry I have seen no evidence that qualified trades from the EU have depressed rates.
What I see now though is reduced volumes in construction because the reduction in the availability of trades is causing issues. That’s why we are moving investment and jobs out of the UK.
Reduced construction volumes will flow through to an increasing housing crisis, increasing costs result in increasing prices and less money available through s106 for community etc.
Do you run training schemes or rely upon others to train workers in the skills required. My lad was employed as an apprentice by a self employed electrician who paid him and permitted day release to learn the technical side of the job.
We run national training schemes and local schemes where we have developments, its one of our core principles along with modern slavery, health and safety and integrity. These are tested and challenged frequently all the way to the Group main board. We also run training schemes around the world (much of our Group is global) and upskill and pay locals properly. We also ensure that ALL of our contractors and subcontractors apply the same principles. They are contractually obliged to and it is followed up and checked.
Its a sad situation but we also find in the UK that many young people don't want to work in the construction industry and don't take up the training and apprenticeship opportunities.
The Living Wage Foundation in the UK has named us as an accredited Real Living Wage employer.
There was a lack of skilled labour before Brexit and there is even more of a lack now. However, there are many tradesmen who seem reluctant to work, have no pride in the job and deliver poor quality (as many new homes attest). These are the ones who find it difficult to get work or who get paid less. Just like any job, if you are good at it and have the right attitude you tend to be better paid than if you don't, whether you are an electrician, an architect, a doctor or an accountant.
We have some superb British tradesmen and some superb Europeans and some superb ones from all corners of the planet. They are all paid the same rates wherever they come from. Likewise we have crap ones with attitude problems, unfortunately for the industry these are predominantly home grown. (note this last point that this is observation rather than data driven).
So in my experience and that of my colleagues in all of the construction sectors we have worked in, FOM of labour is not a thing that has reduced pay rates. Being s
t at the job reduces payrates for individuals.If there are people who are good at their job and feel they are being underpaid, well in construction its the easiest thing ever to move to a different employer. If you have the skills and the attitude you have a well paid job for life. If you haven't you might just slip into blaming immigration "they're taking our jobs" is the cry of those that need to look closer to home as to why they are not being well rewarded in the construction industry.
I can’t change the situation that my family found themselves in but as a result of that situation he upped his skill levels and moved on and up. Having said that he also has recently gained his Electrical Safety Certificate which, as to will know, qualifies him to inspect and Certificate electrical works. For example Landlords premises etc. He earns about £350 inspecting a three bedroom unit
which is about 3 or 4 hours work.
But his main employment is, as I have previously stated, for a Pharma’ Company in Cambridge.
I agree that many of the young people see that getting their hands dirty in a days work is not what they want. They have been indoctrinated it seems to wish for a clean office environment and a computer or two on their desk. The industry has much work to do in helping to dissuade youngsters from this attitude, along with Government.
One area of work that was crap he found was in Carillion, no doubt you have heard of them. Not quite as rosy as your response suggests.
El stovey said:
crankedup said:
Same reason that you continue to post in here perhaps?
Yes the EU is still causing problems, those same problems that you have been moaning about. So we seem to agree the EU is a PIA.
When our Country finally smooths out the trading problems with the EU my complaining will stop.
I’m not sure that the EU will fail completely, but I think it’s more likely then not.
What is your pov on the possible collapse of the EU, do you see it surviving given all of the problems it has stacking up?
I don’t think it will collapse, I think it will likely continue towards an increasingly federalised unit. The same phenomenon will likely happen in other parts of the world and as time goes on, the sovereignty of individual nations will continue to reduce as the concept of a nation state becomes less important to each new generation. Yes the EU is still causing problems, those same problems that you have been moaning about. So we seem to agree the EU is a PIA.
When our Country finally smooths out the trading problems with the EU my complaining will stop.
I’m not sure that the EU will fail completely, but I think it’s more likely then not.
What is your pov on the possible collapse of the EU, do you see it surviving given all of the problems it has stacking up?
El stovey said:
DeepEnd said:
Another take away from that is that FOM has also helped push up quality expectations across the board - I can see how that might irk the lazy and sloppy trades. Suspect some would even blame such workers for them no longer being able to get away with sloppy work.
That’s the great thing about increased competition in the market, it forces people to raise their game. You’d see the same improvements in other industries with lower barriers to entry like hospitality and hard working Eastern Europeans coming to the U.K. and improving quality of service throughout the industry with their enthusiasm and work ethic. crankedup said:
El stovey said:
crankedup said:
The other aspect of this particular element is where the work is, this brings me onto such matters as travelling to work, accommodation costs, living expenses. Oh look it’s come back to where it started now.
My daughter lives in London, as Blue states, it is difficult and expensive to find good trades for domestic jobs. She had a roof extension built, not so bad as little businesses seem set up to do that work. But any repairs required is another matter. She suggested to her brother that he lives in London as there was/is plenty of well paid work, but worked out the added costs and it didn’t pay enough.That’s the point he decided to up his skills.
Can’t you see that it’s hard to get repairs etc done as you’ve voted to get rid of the swarms of invading workers that would likely be doing that kind of work? My daughter lives in London, as Blue states, it is difficult and expensive to find good trades for domestic jobs. She had a roof extension built, not so bad as little businesses seem set up to do that work. But any repairs required is another matter. She suggested to her brother that he lives in London as there was/is plenty of well paid work, but worked out the added costs and it didn’t pay enough.That’s the point he decided to up his skills.
Now I know that the FOM filled the hole left in our lack of trades, but this came at a price. I’ve done that to death now!
Apprentice schemes are now resurrected, better late than never, and slowly slowly the trickle of good trades will return once more, but it will take time to rectify mistakes of the past.
Remaining in the EU and encouraging East Europeans to plug the trades hole was a short term
unsustainable policy. Effectively it was creating the race to the bottom which suited employers but ultimately damaged employees.
It is far better to fill the gaps using the new U.K. immigration system which will help protect the quality of trades and their wages.
Now remind me how flooding the market with a bunch of well trained apprentices is going to protect the wages of the oul' hands
.The main bit of your argument that stands up to scrutiny is that if there are enough locally sourced people to do a job them immigrants won't be needed in that sector. But you also have to stand over the argument that it's worth the government being arsed to do it rather than importing skills. Leaving the EU has not fundamentally changed that equation for the government. I've made suggestions on what would so and can't be arsed doing so again.
crankedup said:
The main problem with finding good trades is the simple fact that we in the U.K. stopped the apprentice schemes in favour of Uni education with a degree at the end. We now are bearing the fruits of that particular bit of Government interference with far to many young people holding worthless degrees and a lack of good qualified trades people.
Now I know that the FOM filled the hole left in our lack of trades, but this came at a price. I’ve done that to death now!
Apprentice schemes are now resurrected, better late than never, and slowly slowly the trickle of good trades will return once more, but it will take time to rectify mistakes of the past.
Remaining in the EU and encouraging East Europeans to plug the trades hole was a short term
unsustainable policy. Effectively it was creating the race to the bottom which suited employers but ultimately damaged employees.
It is far better to fill the gaps using the new U.K. immigration system which will help protect the quality of trades and their wages.
One thing remainers never understood the foreign nurses and drs they wanted to keep coming to the U.K. from poor 3rd or second world countries. Those countries who had trained up nurses and drs at tax payer costs for their own need yet remainers were happy for those countries to be pillaged for U.K. benefit (a bit like colonialism all over again). Now I know that the FOM filled the hole left in our lack of trades, but this came at a price. I’ve done that to death now!
Apprentice schemes are now resurrected, better late than never, and slowly slowly the trickle of good trades will return once more, but it will take time to rectify mistakes of the past.
Remaining in the EU and encouraging East Europeans to plug the trades hole was a short term
unsustainable policy. Effectively it was creating the race to the bottom which suited employers but ultimately damaged employees.
It is far better to fill the gaps using the new U.K. immigration system which will help protect the quality of trades and their wages.
Welshbeef said:
One thing remainers never understood the foreign nurses and drs they wanted to keep coming to the U.K. from poor 3rd or second world countries. Those countries who had trained up nurses and drs at tax payer costs for their own need yet remainers were happy for those countries to be pillaged for U.K. benefit (a bit like colonialism all over again).
What's that go to do with Brexit?crankedup said:
Your full and comprehensive post is appreciated.
I can’t change the situation that my family found themselves in but as a result of that situation he upped his skill levels and moved on and up. Having said that he also has recently gained his Electrical Safety Certificate which, as to will know, qualifies him to inspect and Certificate electrical works. For example Landlords premises etc. He earns about £350 inspecting a three bedroom unit
which is about 3 or 4 hours work.
But his main employment is, as I have previously stated, for a Pharma’ Company in Cambridge.
I agree that many of the young people see that getting their hands dirty in a days work is not what they want. They have been indoctrinated it seems to wish for a clean office environment and a computer or two on their desk. The industry has much work to do in helping to dissuade youngsters from this attitude, along with Government.
One area of work that was crap he found was in Carillion, no doubt you have heard of them. Not quite as rosy as your response suggests.
You may have gathered that I take my job and the construction/development industry very seriously, but I am bot blinkered enough to think that there are no issues. Interestingly you mention Carillion, who failed spectacularly, they are a contractor that I never worked with, but if they had worked for us they would have been contractually obliged to follow our requirements. The reason we apply the contractual obligation is to make sure that things happen.I can’t change the situation that my family found themselves in but as a result of that situation he upped his skill levels and moved on and up. Having said that he also has recently gained his Electrical Safety Certificate which, as to will know, qualifies him to inspect and Certificate electrical works. For example Landlords premises etc. He earns about £350 inspecting a three bedroom unit
which is about 3 or 4 hours work.
But his main employment is, as I have previously stated, for a Pharma’ Company in Cambridge.
I agree that many of the young people see that getting their hands dirty in a days work is not what they want. They have been indoctrinated it seems to wish for a clean office environment and a computer or two on their desk. The industry has much work to do in helping to dissuade youngsters from this attitude, along with Government.
One area of work that was crap he found was in Carillion, no doubt you have heard of them. Not quite as rosy as your response suggests.
As I previously mentioned we are moving much of our production to offsite manufacture, a nice warm factory environment, but we are still struggling with trades and there will always be works needed on site. Brickies have almost priced themselves out of the market and we are moving to systems that have no wet trades like brickies so that we can ensure production continuity and quality.
Your son (depending on his age) is doing ok if he can earn £700 a day, and has taken the right steps to upskill himself.
JeffreyD said:
Welshbeef said:
One thing remainers never understood the foreign nurses and drs they wanted to keep coming to the U.K. from poor 3rd or second world countries. Those countries who had trained up nurses and drs at tax payer costs for their own need yet remainers were happy for those countries to be pillaged for U.K. benefit (a bit like colonialism all over again).
What's that go to do with Brexit?It’s got everything to do with it.
chrispmartha said:
crankedup said:
El stovey said:
crankedup said:
The other aspect of this particular element is where the work is, this brings me onto such matters as travelling to work, accommodation costs, living expenses. Oh look it’s come back to where it started now.
My daughter lives in London, as Blue states, it is difficult and expensive to find good trades for domestic jobs. She had a roof extension built, not so bad as little businesses seem set up to do that work. But any repairs required is another matter. She suggested to her brother that he lives in London as there was/is plenty of well paid work, but worked out the added costs and it didn’t pay enough.That’s the point he decided to up his skills.
Can’t you see that it’s hard to get repairs etc done as you’ve voted to get rid of the swarms of invading workers that would likely be doing that kind of work? My daughter lives in London, as Blue states, it is difficult and expensive to find good trades for domestic jobs. She had a roof extension built, not so bad as little businesses seem set up to do that work. But any repairs required is another matter. She suggested to her brother that he lives in London as there was/is plenty of well paid work, but worked out the added costs and it didn’t pay enough.That’s the point he decided to up his skills.
Now I know that the FOM filled the hole left in our lack of trades, but this came at a price. I’ve done that to death now!
Apprentice schemes are now resurrected, better late than never, and slowly slowly the trickle of good trades will return once more, but it will take time to rectify mistakes of the past.
Remaining in the EU and encouraging East Europeans to plug the trades hole was a short term
unsustainable policy. Effectively it was creating the race to the bottom which suited employers but ultimately damaged employees.
It is far better to fill the gaps using the new U.K. immigration system which will help protect the quality of trades and their wages.
Welshbeef said:
Lots of vote stay banged the drum about FOM and needing Eastern European resources for our beloved NHS.
It’s got everything to do with it.
I presume you are attempting to write in English and I think I understand what you are saying.It’s got everything to do with it.
The EU has 3rd world members now - every day is a school day.
crankedup said:
IIRC major changes were made during 1994 which also linked in, unsurprisingly to the 1992 Maastricht treaty. I do recall much consternation regarding the changes at that time. Government was also adopting the policy of broadening youngsters life chances by extending opportunity for Uni degrees.
But when were they stopped?And for that matter when were they started again?
And why did being in the EU stop us changing or stopping/starting apprenticeships?
Welshbeef said:
crankedup said:
The main problem with finding good trades is the simple fact that we in the U.K. stopped the apprentice schemes in favour of Uni education with a degree at the end. We now are bearing the fruits of that particular bit of Government interference with far to many young people holding worthless degrees and a lack of good qualified trades people.
Now I know that the FOM filled the hole left in our lack of trades, but this came at a price. I’ve done that to death now!
Apprentice schemes are now resurrected, better late than never, and slowly slowly the trickle of good trades will return once more, but it will take time to rectify mistakes of the past.
Remaining in the EU and encouraging East Europeans to plug the trades hole was a short term
unsustainable policy. Effectively it was creating the race to the bottom which suited employers but ultimately damaged employees.
It is far better to fill the gaps using the new U.K. immigration system which will help protect the quality of trades and their wages.
One thing remainers never understood the foreign nurses and drs they wanted to keep coming to the U.K. from poor 3rd or second world countries. Those countries who had trained up nurses and drs at tax payer costs for their own need yet remainers were happy for those countries to be pillaged for U.K. benefit (a bit like colonialism all over again). Now I know that the FOM filled the hole left in our lack of trades, but this came at a price. I’ve done that to death now!
Apprentice schemes are now resurrected, better late than never, and slowly slowly the trickle of good trades will return once more, but it will take time to rectify mistakes of the past.
Remaining in the EU and encouraging East Europeans to plug the trades hole was a short term
unsustainable policy. Effectively it was creating the race to the bottom which suited employers but ultimately damaged employees.
It is far better to fill the gaps using the new U.K. immigration system which will help protect the quality of trades and their wages.
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