Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 2)

[loafer123]

bhstewie said:

loafer123 said:

Except, judging by the rhetoric, he isn’t willing to pay the price the EU are asking.

I do wish they would all grow up and come to a sensible compromise.

I expect we all agree with that.

Hopefully, having listened to both sides whining, Biden will knock some heads together.

[anonymous-user]

bhstewie said:

digimeistter said:

See this is the thinking I have trouble with.

It wasn't Boris that shafted NI, it was the EU.

There was nothing else the EU would accept as you well know.

If we hadn't agreed, we'd still be a member of their dysfunctional institution.

Exactly.

They were the price Johnson was willing to pay to escape that institution.

Substitute NI for Kent or Birmingham and ask yourself if the same deal would have been struck.

It's a little part of the UK that's out of the way enough that not enough people were bothered enough and it was politically expedient to treat them that way to get a deal.

That isn't excusing the EU for the article 16 stshow over vaccines or anything else.

Again, I really do struggle with your thinking.

[Leins]

I’m beginning to think it may be best if someone just said “I’m afraid this isn’t working out, let’s call it quits”

Given the consensus on this thread seems to be overwhelmingly that the EU needs the UK more than vice versa, maybe it’s time Boris cut the cord and we’ll all just make the best of it going forwards. At least it would end this continual game of blame tennis

[Tuna]

digimeistter said:

Again, I really do struggle with your thinking.

It's very simple. Whatever the problem is, it's 'our' fault... and by 'our', I mean 'Boris'. Read any of Stewie's posts with that in mind and it all makes sense.

[loafer123]

Leins said:

I’m beginning to think it may be best if someone just said “I’m afraid this isn’t working out, let’s call it quits”

Given the consensus on this thread seems to be overwhelmingly that the EU needs the UK more than vice versa, maybe it’s time Boris cut the cord and we’ll all just make the best of it going forwards. At least it would end this continual game of blame tennis

It is a very interesting point.

Given the new arrangements have required everyone to learn how to do Customs as a 3rd party into the EU, it would now be a lot easier to go to a No Deal scenario.

Ultimately, the EU have a limit as to how far they can push…

[roger.mellie]

digimeistter said:

bhstewie said:

There wasn't much sign of that when he shafted NI.

See this is the thinking I have trouble with.

It wasn't Boris that shafted NI, it was the EU.

There was nothing else the EU would accept as you well know.

If we hadn't agreed, we'd still be a member of their dysfunctional institution.

Revisionism/gaslighting? There were several options on the table. The simple reality is the NIP was the only one that satisfied both side’s red lines. UK’s being mainland GB leave SM and CU. NI leaving the SM was not a UK red line.

Next you’ll be believing the telegraph editorial line where Boris was pushed into it despite them happy clapping along at the time.

I still support the NIP BTW, but purely out of pragmatism rather than thinking it’s a great deal. The same problem still exists - what would you do better given both side’s red lines? Shafting NI was (and still is) an easy decision for Boris.

Now it’s time to accept that and move on, deal with the issues through the JC and stop pretending nobody knew they were going to happen. Or worse, that the EU are being “legally purist”.

But to suggest it’s all the EU’s fault, you’re having a laugh

[anonymous-user]

Nobody said it was a great deal.

You should be more aware than anyone how the EU has treated the Irish problem.

So yes, I do believe the EU are the problem.

Ably assisted by .Varadkar at the time.

[roger.mellie]

digimeistter said:

Nobody said it was a great deal.

You should be more aware than anyone how the EU has treated the Irish problem.

So yes, I do believe the EU are the problem.

Ably assisted by .Varadkar at the time.

I am and I can understand your perspective.

I’m about to clock off but happy to pick up on this another time.

The Irish gov shat themselves when the UK voted brexit. They were pushed into taking sides and every attempt at middle ground mediation was a “who’s side are you on?” rebuke in the making from the EU, so they looked out for themselves. Enda, to Leo, to Micheál, they were all involved at different stages of brexit and therefore had different priorities,

My view as of today is that the NI protocol is here to stay unless NI politicians/Stormont choose to either renegotiate articles 5-10 or the NI populace vote for a united Ireland. Ignoring other external factors e.g. the EU could self distruct but I’m not putting a high number on that . There is also a non zero chance that the uk will do another IM Bill stunt, that would be disastrous in my view for NI.

When I watch UK politicians criticise the deal I see them as criticising their own efforts and trying to blame someone else. I find it annoying when otherwise sensible people believe the propaganda that it wasn’t a weighed up decision, and still is and (as DeejRc correctly points out) they’re still making electoral capital from it.

[Wombat3]

roger.mellie said:

digimeistter said:

Nobody said it was a great deal.

You should be more aware than anyone how the EU has treated the Irish problem.

So yes, I do believe the EU are the problem.

Ably assisted by .Varadkar at the time.

I am and I can understand your perspective.

I’m about to clock off but happy to pick up on this another time.

The Irish gov shat themselves when the UK voted brexit. They were pushed into taking sides and every attempt at middle ground mediation was a “who’s side are you on?” rebuke in the making from the EU, so they looked out for themselves. Enda, to Leo, to Micheál, they were all involved at different stages of brexit and therefore had different priorities,

My view as of today is that the NI protocol is here to stay unless NI politicians/Stormont choose to either renegotiate articles 5-10 or the NI populace vote for a united Ireland. Ignoring other external factors e.g. the EU could self distruct but I’m not putting a high number on that . There is also a non zero chance that the uk will do another IM Bill stunt, that would be disastrous in my view for NI.

When I watch UK politicians criticise the deal I see them as criticising their own efforts and trying to blame someone else. I find it annoying when otherwise sensible people believe the propaganda that it wasn’t a weighed up decision, and still is and (as DeejRc correctly points out) they’re still making electoral capital from it.

IMO the NIP was simply what it took to get BREXIT over the line. Everyone knew it was a bit st but the idea that the process should have been derailed by the situation with NI was proper tail wagging dog stuff.

The EU have done very little to suggest they see the situation as anything other than a useful lever to try and gain advantage. They are not and never have been interested in a win-win deal. They are hiding behind the GFA , it's just a useful tool.

Bunch of s we are well rid of as recent events have so well demonstrated.

Edited by Wombat3 on Saturday 12th June 22:00

[turbobloke]

Wombat3 said:

roger.mellie said:

digimeistter said:

Nobody said it was a great deal.

You should be more aware than anyone how the EU has treated the Irish problem.

So yes, I do believe the EU are the problem.

Ably assisted by .Varadkar at the time.

I am and I can understand your perspective.

I’m about to clock off but happy to pick up on this another time.

The Irish gov shat themselves when the UK voted brexit. They were pushed into taking sides and every attempt at middle ground mediation was a “who’s side are you on?” rebuke in the making from the EU, so they looked out for themselves. Enda, to Leo, to Micheál, they were all involved at different stages of brexit and therefore had different priorities,

My view as of today is that the NI protocol is here to stay unless NI politicians/Stormont choose to either renegotiate articles 5-10 or the NI populace vote for a united Ireland. Ignoring other external factors e.g. the EU could self distruct but I’m not putting a high number on that . There is also a non zero chance that the uk will do another IM Bill stunt, that would be disastrous in my view for NI.

When I watch UK politicians criticise the deal I see them as criticising their own efforts and trying to blame someone else. I find it annoying when otherwise sensible people believe the propaganda that it wasn’t a weighed up decision, and still is and (as DeejRc correctly points out) they’re still making electoral capital from it.

IMO the NIP was simply what it took to get BREXIT over the line. Everyone knew it was a bit st but the idea that the process should have been derailed by the situation with NI was proper tail wagging dog stuff.

The EU have done very little to suggest they see the situation as anything other than a useful lever to try and gain advantage. They are not and never have been interested in a win-win deal. They are hiding behind the GFA , it's just a useful tool.

Bunch of s we are well rid of as recent events have so well demonstrated.

Edited by Wombat3 on Saturday 12th June 22:00

Spot on .

[Mortarboard]

So we're back in the realms of fantasy island Brexit again.

"they need us more than them"

"biden will knock heads together"

"Boris didn't sell out NI permanently, major gambit, 3d chess move"

And then the spin:

"Eu not globally influential, it's the countries, innit"

"All it takes is applying the NIP in good faith, grr EU, baaaaad EU"

There's folk here who could host apprenticeships in barrel scraping.......

And in the meantime, the leading narrative on NI is being led by the DUP, with the loyalist terrorists two steps behind.

Christ

M.

[Tuna]

roger.mellie said:

I find it annoying when otherwise sensible people believe the propaganda that it wasn’t a weighed up decision, and still is and (as DeejRc correctly points out) they’re still making electoral capital from it.

Any yet you stay silent when people claim that the fault lies entirely with the UK, and that the EU is completely blameless. Propaganda is only 'annoying' one way, is it?

[loafer123]

Mortarboard said:

So we're back in the realms of fantasy island Brexit again.

"they need us more than them"

"biden will knock heads together"

"Boris didn't sell out NI permanently, major gambit, 3d chess move"

And then the spin:

"Eu not globally influential, it's the countries, innit"

"All it takes is applying the NIP in good faith, grr EU, baaaaad EU"

There's folk here who could host apprenticeships in barrel scraping.......

And in the meantime, the leading narrative on NI is being led by the DUP, with the loyalist terrorists two steps behind.

Christ

M.

It really doesn’t matter about the rhetoric.

All you need to understand is that the EU are attempting to keep the U.K. within their regulatory orbit to prevent competition, whilst the U.K. will do anything it needs to to avoid that.

[roger.mellie]

Tuna said:

roger.mellie said:

I find it annoying when otherwise sensible people believe the propaganda that it wasn’t a weighed up decision, and still is and (as DeejRc correctly points out) they’re still making electoral capital from it.

Any yet you stay silent when people claim that the fault lies entirely with the UK, and that the EU is completely blameless. Propaganda is only 'annoying' one way, is it?

First they came for …. and I didn’t speak up!

Good job they had plenty of uncritical supporters and didn’t need the addition of my voice .

I don’t stay silent, I just don’t accept the pure bks that the uk are innocent victims.

[roger.mellie]

Wombat3 said:

IMO the NIP was simply what it took to get BREXIT over the line. Everyone knew it was a bit st but the idea that the process should have been derailed by the situation with NI was proper tail wagging dog stuff.

The EU have done very little to suggest they see the situation as anything other than a useful lever to try and gain advantage. They are not and never have been interested in a win-win deal. They are hiding behind the GFA , it's just a useful tool.

Bunch of s we are well rid of as recent events have so well demonstrated.

Edited by Wombat3 on Saturday 12th June 22:00

We’re actually agreeing here, but from different perspectives.

It was an act of expediency. But it was a uk act of expediency. The ones I have zero sympathy for are the Ben Habib’s of the world who signed up to it in the expectation that it would never actually be honoured.

ETA apart from that last line, and now that I look at it not many of the other lines, I basically meant the first paragraph. .

Edited by roger.mellie on Saturday 12th June 23:39

[Mrr T]

Wombat3 said:

roger.mellie said:

digimeistter said:

Nobody said it was a great deal.

You should be more aware than anyone how the EU has treated the Irish problem.

So yes, I do believe the EU are the problem.

Ably assisted by .Varadkar at the time.

I am and I can understand your perspective.

I’m about to clock off but happy to pick up on this another time.

The Irish gov shat themselves when the UK voted brexit. They were pushed into taking sides and every attempt at middle ground mediation was a “who’s side are you on?” rebuke in the making from the EU, so they looked out for themselves. Enda, to Leo, to Micheál, they were all involved at different stages of brexit and therefore had different priorities,

My view as of today is that the NI protocol is here to stay unless NI politicians/Stormont choose to either renegotiate articles 5-10 or the NI populace vote for a united Ireland. Ignoring other external factors e.g. the EU could self distruct but I’m not putting a high number on that . There is also a non zero chance that the uk will do another IM Bill stunt, that would be disastrous in my view for NI.

When I watch UK politicians criticise the deal I see them as criticising their own efforts and trying to blame someone else. I find it annoying when otherwise sensible people believe the propaganda that it wasn’t a weighed up decision, and still is and (as DeejRc correctly points out) they’re still making electoral capital from it.

IMO the NIP was simply what it took to get BREXIT over the line. Everyone knew it was a bit st but the idea that the process should have been derailed by the situation with NI was proper tail wagging dog stuff.

The EU have done very little to suggest they see the situation as anything other than a useful lever to try and gain advantage. They are not and never have been interested in a win-win deal. They are hiding behind the GFA , it's just a useful tool.

Bunch of s we are well rid of as recent events have so well demonstrated.

Edited by Wombat3 on Saturday 12th June 22:00

Small problem with your comments. The implementation of the IP was given to a joint committee. The joint committee agreed the implementation. The joint committee implemention of the IP was agreed by a well know remainer called Michael Gove.

[roger.mellie]

Mortarboard said:

So we're back in the realms of fantasy island Brexit again.

"they need us more than them"

"biden will knock heads together"

"Boris didn't sell out NI permanently, major gambit, 3d chess move"

And then the spin:

"Eu not globally influential, it's the countries, innit"

"All it takes is applying the NIP in good faith, grr EU, baaaaad EU"

There's folk here who could host apprenticeships in barrel scraping.......

And in the meantime, the leading narrative on NI is being led by the DUP, with the loyalist terrorists two steps behind.

Christ

M.

I don’t normally reply to you as I don’t see the point in replying to people you agree with. I’m not the clap along type. I wouldn’t say silence is acceptance but you know what I mean.

I haven’t read this thread for days. As much as I like Sway’s alternative opinion, he’s an expert at loading the dice on what qualifies as an acceptable answer.

On that last line you’re correct. The UK media are following the DUP et al narrative because it suits their grievance narrative, meanwhile the vast majority in NI are not of the same view.

[Oilchange]

turbobloke said:

Wombat3 said:

roger.mellie said:

digimeistter said:

Nobody said it was a great deal.

You should be more aware than anyone how the EU has treated the Irish problem.

So yes, I do believe the EU are the problem.

Ably assisted by .Varadkar at the time.

I am and I can understand your perspective.

I’m about to clock off but happy to pick up on this another time.

The Irish gov shat themselves when the UK voted brexit. They were pushed into taking sides and every attempt at middle ground mediation was a “who’s side are you on?” rebuke in the making from the EU, so they looked out for themselves. Enda, to Leo, to Micheál, they were all involved at different stages of brexit and therefore had different priorities,

My view as of today is that the NI protocol is here to stay unless NI politicians/Stormont choose to either renegotiate articles 5-10 or the NI populace vote for a united Ireland. Ignoring other external factors e.g. the EU could self distruct but I’m not putting a high number on that . There is also a non zero chance that the uk will do another IM Bill stunt, that would be disastrous in my view for NI.

When I watch UK politicians criticise the deal I see them as criticising their own efforts and trying to blame someone else. I find it annoying when otherwise sensible people believe the propaganda that it wasn’t a weighed up decision, and still is and (as DeejRc correctly points out) they’re still making electoral capital from it.

IMO the NIP was simply what it took to get BREXIT over the line. Everyone knew it was a bit st but the idea that the process should have been derailed by the situation with NI was proper tail wagging dog stuff.

The EU have done very little to suggest they see the situation as anything other than a useful lever to try and gain advantage. They are not and never have been interested in a win-win deal. They are hiding behind the GFA , it's just a useful tool.

Bunch of s we are well rid of as recent events have so well demonstrated.

Edited by Wombat3 on Saturday 12th June 22:00

Spot on .

I agree too, they are trying to play 'Divide and Conquer' to destabilise the situation to their advantage. So glad we are free of their dirty grasp, the world can see them for the 'friends' they are

[roger.mellie]

Oilchange said:

I agree too, they are trying to play 'Divide and Conquer' to destabilise the situation to their advantage. So glad we are free of their dirty grasp, the world can see them for the 'friends' they are

Trying, when the uk are the masters?

I’m joking but choose your terms with at least a smattering of historical knowledge.

Many countries are happy to be free of a certain dirty grasp if you want to compare numbers.

[Northernboy]

Unknown_User said:

Er, nope.

Scotland? Influential.

Wales, NI and England? Definitely, especially considering Englands ex-empires!

The UK itself as an entity? "Stolen credit" wouldn't you agree?

The Empire was British / UK, it was never English.

I understand that there are some Scots nowadays who wish to pretend that they played no part in it, but that’s an absolutely untenable position.

The UK acted as the UK, throughout the time of Empire. The nations were in it together, as were their citizens. Of course, it was a relatively few of those citizens who became rich, but that few were from all corners of these isles.