Vaccine/Health Passports

Author
Discussion

MikeT66

Original Poster:

2,680 posts

123 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
Sorry - I know it's another 'Covid' thread, but the potential impact of this perhaps warrants some specific consideration, I think.

After months of the government saying they will not adopt this route, we now have Gove looking into the possibility. My main concerns are:

1 - Data security. Who looks after this and monitors it. Who has access?
2 - Scope creep. Once this is done and implemented, what next? Passport cancelled if next year's dose is not administered? Is it a back-door route into a Chinese-style 'social credit system'?
3 - It may start with a few theatres/cinemas, etc... but where will it end up? The first step into a segregated society? We've seen that before.
4 - Employment. No jab/no job? Already rumours and stories circulating, of course.
5 - The main one. What happens to personal choice regarding what is put into your own body once this is accepted? As per (1), will the 'passport' be denied unless you keep complying and accepting new regulations? We do not do this for any other disease/virus (incuding AIDS, etc), so why this.

It's just the part of a horrendous slippery slope to me. I'm not anti-vax, but am definitely pro-choice, especially with regard to medical procedures on my own body. IMHO an honest government would be pushing a Bill to actively stop businesses introducing this (if you've had the vaccine, why would you be so scared of someone who hasn't anyway?)... but I just don't see them doing that.

Electro1980

8,248 posts

138 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
I think anti-vaxers are stupid, everyone who can should have the vaccine and anyone not is being incredibly selfish and I haven’t heard a single sensible argument not to have it, as you will see from my discussions on other threads...

BBBUUUUTTTT

I think vaccine “passports” and proof of vaccine status to do quite normal and basic things, against what will become a recurring, endemic illness, is a huge over reach, a massive abuse and a direct attack on basic human rights and liberties.

p1stonhead

25,489 posts

166 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
We do it for some diseases. Or rather some of the world requires it.

Ever tried to go somewhere abroad without the required vaccinations for that particular area? Yellow fever and the like?

No. You need your vaccination certificate.

It’s nothing new.

Why would it suddenly be this mythical ‘slippery slope’ that so many people seem to be terrified of?

However - I agree that having to have a passport to do ‘normal’ things is a step too far.

I honestly don’t think they will do it anyway to be fair.

Edited by p1stonhead on Wednesday 24th February 07:36

MikeT66

Original Poster:

2,680 posts

123 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
Electro1980 said:
I think anti-vaxers are stupid, everyone who can should have the vaccine and anyone not is being incredibly selfish and I haven’t heard a single sensible argument not to have it, as you will see from my discussions on other threads...

BBBUUUUTTTT

I think vaccine “passports” and proof of vaccine status to do quite normal and basic things, against what will become a recurring, endemic illness, is a huge over reach, a massive abuse and a direct attack on basic human rights and liberties.
Can't argue with any of that... and some of the anti-vax stuff is just odd. I do worry that after the year we've had some people will be grateful to accept the poisoned carrot, though, and we're heading on a path that is incredibly dangerous.

If I put my cynical coat on, it's not hard to see another one of the government's chosen companies to find something else we need to have injected to keep the 'passport' - and we'll pay in more than just financially for it.

menousername

2,106 posts

141 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
Electro1980 said:
I think anti-vaxers are stupid, everyone who can should have the vaccine and anyone not is being incredibly selfish and I haven’t heard a single sensible argument not to have it, as you will see from my discussions on other threads...

BBBUUUUTTTT

I think vaccine “passports” and proof of vaccine status to do quite normal and basic things, against what will become a recurring, endemic illness, is a huge over reach, a massive abuse and a direct attack on basic human rights and liberties.
You have given one important answer to the first question with your second comment.

The narrative / propaganda around it, the state-coercion and overreach, is a reason in itself to be suspicious enough not to submit to that coercion.

And if we all do, do we really think it all just ends?? The state then steps back and reduces its authoritarianism if we just do this one last thing??


jameswills

3,416 posts

42 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
Electro1980 said:
I think anti-vaxers are stupid, everyone who can should have the vaccine and anyone not is being incredibly selfish and I haven’t heard a single sensible argument not to have it, as you will see from my discussions on other threads...

BBBUUUUTTTT

I think vaccine “passports” and proof of vaccine status to do quite normal and basic things, against what will become a recurring, endemic illness, is a huge over reach, a massive abuse and a direct attack on basic human rights and liberties.
On your first point, most people don’t need it. So that’s a pretty valid argument not to take it. You don’t go round taking ibuprofen all day just in case you get a headache.

Agree on your second point.

MikeT66

Original Poster:

2,680 posts

123 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
p1stonhead said:
We do it for some diseases. Or rather some of the world requires it.

Ever tried to go somewhere abroad without the required vaccinations for that particular area? Yellow fever and the like?

No. You need your vaccination certificate.

It’s nothing new.

Why would it suddenly be this mythical ‘slippery slope’ that so many people seem to be terrified of?
I understand that. We had to have certain vaccinations to go to Africa a few decades ago. But we understood the risks/requirements... but a health passport for the cinema/theatre/pub/shop/job? In this country? Not acceptable in a democratic, 'free' society. Maybe for some truly deadly virus - then I'd understand it. But not for this.

jameswills

3,416 posts

42 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
p1stonhead said:
We do it for some diseases. Or rather some of the world requires it.

Ever tried to go somewhere abroad without the required vaccinations for that particular area? Yellow fever and the like?

No. You need your vaccination certificate.

It’s nothing new.

Why would it suddenly be this mythical ‘slippery slope’ that so many people seem to be terrified of?
Never been to Europe needing to tell them my medical history, no.

We don’t mandate or coerce people for any vaccine. MMR for instance is not mandatory, children can still attend school who haven’t been vaccinated. But you’re now talking about them having to do so for a virus that doesn’t affect them in the slightest?

p1stonhead

25,489 posts

166 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
jameswills said:
p1stonhead said:
We do it for some diseases. Or rather some of the world requires it.

Ever tried to go somewhere abroad without the required vaccinations for that particular area? Yellow fever and the like?

No. You need your vaccination certificate.

It’s nothing new.

Why would it suddenly be this mythical ‘slippery slope’ that so many people seem to be terrified of?
Never been to Europe needing to tell them my medical history, no.

We don’t mandate or coerce people for any vaccine. MMR for instance is not mandatory, children can still attend school who haven’t been vaccinated. But you’re now talking about them having to do so for a virus that doesn’t affect them in the slightest?
I get that. And I don’t agree with it being needed to go to the cinema.

But international travel I don’t see the problem to be honest if another country demands it. Holidays are a luxury not all can even afford anyway.

If you want to go into someone’s house it’s their rules to be honest.

I had to get all stabbed up with whatever to go on safari. If I didn’t want to get vaccinated, I wouldn’t have been going. Fairly straight forward. No one is forcing you to go to Europe.

As a side note - wasn’t the BCG mandatory back in the day? We all queued up in school for it. I know it was mandatory in a lot of other countries too.

jameswills

3,416 posts

42 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
p1stonhead said:
I get that. And I don’t agree with it being needed to go to the cinema.

But international travel I don’t see the problem to be honest if another country demands it. Holidays are a luxury not all can even afford anyway.

If you want to go into someone’s house it’s their rules to be honest.

I had to get all stabbed up with whatever to go on safari. If I didn’t want to get vaccinated, I wouldn’t have been going. Fairly straight forward. No one is forcing you to go to Europe.

As a side note - wasn’t the BCG mandatory back in the day? We all queued up in school for it. I know it was mandatory in a lot of other countries too.
No I don’t see the problem with international travel at all, it’s their rules it’s up to them. I think it’s bonkers for this virus but that’s just my opinion.

Not quite sure if it was mandatory here, but it certainly was in others. TB was (and still is) as major concern though, and coming off the back of the HIV/AIDS pandemic probably made everyone a bit more sensitive. I’m only guessing though, not an expert.

GroundZero

2,085 posts

53 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
I think the media term of "vaccination passport" makes it sound like it is some new concept and something way more intrusive than what it is.

The UK already has a system of "holiday jabs" for people going to places in the world where they have significant amounts of disease and this covid "passport" will be much the same thing.
Very much the way forward for getting people travelling again and very much a positive thing for the countries that wish to receive us rowdy anti-social brits who a significant number seemingly have little care in the world for spreading the virus on to others.
It is a workable method to build up a level of security so that countries don't continue to export and import the virus in large numbers as people start to travel again.

So I'm guessing it probably won't just be a simple stamp on a paper card like the usual holiday jab but it will likely require personal details that match your normal passport for travel, but will likely include the time, date, location and verification data of you actually receiving the vaccination.
I don't see why there would be any more info than that nor why there would be any "mission creep" in the amount or the use of personal data.

The mass surveillance of personal data and activity is already done by government agencies via your mobile phones, countless CCTV, vehicle registration plates, internet, credit card, visa and passport usage. So a "vaccination passport" won't likely need anything to bolster any of that existing surveillance.



Jasandjules

69,825 posts

228 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
From whom?

Iminquarantine

2,168 posts

43 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
jameswills said:
On your first point, most people don’t need it. So that’s a pretty valid argument not to take it. You don’t go round taking ibuprofen all day just in case you get a headache.

Agree on your second point.
Great! Another anti vaxxer!

I guessed you missed the news not just since Covid but since you were taking childhood Vaccines, that they don’t just protect you. They protect less healthy people, who you will pass infection onto even if your own illness is mild.

Iminquarantine

2,168 posts

43 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
From whom?
I think this anti vaxxer is getting confused between Blair and Bill Gates.

Murph7355

37,651 posts

255 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
MikeT66 said:
Sorry - I know it's another 'Covid' thread, but the potential impact of this perhaps warrants some specific consideration, I think.

After months of the government saying they will not adopt this route, we now have Gove looking into the possibility. My main concerns are:

1 - Data security. Who looks after this and monitors it. Who has access?
2 - Scope creep. Once this is done and implemented, what next? Passport cancelled if next year's dose is not administered? Is it a back-door route into a Chinese-style 'social credit system'?
3 - It may start with a few theatres/cinemas, etc... but where will it end up? The first step into a segregated society? We've seen that before.
4 - Employment. No jab/no job? Already rumours and stories circulating, of course.
5 - The main one. What happens to personal choice regarding what is put into your own body once this is accepted? As per (1), will the 'passport' be denied unless you keep complying and accepting new regulations? We do not do this for any other disease/virus (incuding AIDS, etc), so why this.

It's just the part of a horrendous slippery slope to me. I'm not anti-vax, but am definitely pro-choice, especially with regard to medical procedures on my own body. IMHO an honest government would be pushing a Bill to actively stop businesses introducing this (if you've had the vaccine, why would you be so scared of someone who hasn't anyway?)... but I just don't see them doing that.
1) Who monitors things like NI numbers etc now?

2) Social credits already exist. We have NI cards, few people choose to insist on seeing the physical one though.

3) I expect it to be most places ultimately. It seems logical to me. At least for a while.

4) As 3.

5) You have a choice. As others have noted before, not unlike a driving license. You don't have to have one. But if you don't some "freedoms" are denied you.

With "rights" come "responsibilities".

Iminquarantine

2,168 posts

43 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
On the proof of vaccination (or exemption for medical reasons). I think it is inevitable, mainly because other foreign countries and airlines will require it in order to enter or travel.

Short Grain

2,743 posts

219 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
From whom?
From anyone waving a wad in front of his nose!!

Or more likely his wife stood behind him to make sure they don't miss an opportunity to grab another million!

imho of course

Jasandjules

69,825 posts

228 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
Iminquarantine said:
On the proof of vaccination (or exemption for medical reasons). I think it is inevitable, mainly because other foreign countries and airlines will require it in order to enter or travel.
Travelling to another country there is nothing we can complain about. The question is whether "papier bitte" is necessary or even appropriate or acceptable in a free society to access pubs, theatre etc.

Oakey

27,523 posts

215 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
Travelling to another country there is nothing we can complain about. The question is whether "papier bitte" is necessary or even appropriate or acceptable in a free society to access pubs, theatre etc.
Pubs ID customers all the time though, so do cinemas.

Murph7355

37,651 posts

255 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
Iminquarantine said:
On the proof of vaccination (or exemption for medical reasons). I think it is inevitable, mainly because other foreign countries and airlines will require it in order to enter or travel.
Travelling to another country there is nothing we can complain about. The question is whether "papier bitte" is necessary or even appropriate or acceptable in a free society to access pubs, theatre etc.
Amusing there are those who are totally cool with exposing their data and happy to carry papers to go on holiday, but not for the more serious stuff that matters at home....