Vaccine/Health Passports
Discussion
RSTurboPaul said:
Link to source?
Interesting that 'we don't know the long term consequences of Covid' so should instead immediatelyblackmail
coerce 'encourage' vaccination with genetic engineering in a nano-technology carrier, both of which we don't know the long term consequences of.
I watched a session on the news , possibly CH4 that interviewed a few people and doctors. Interesting that 'we don't know the long term consequences of Covid' so should instead immediately
Edited by RSTurboPaul on Wednesday 24th February 14:55
One was a young lad not even a teenager.
There is this on the BBC
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56113021
I do not suffer from vaccine paranoia or other unfounded fears and have had the AZ one.
I have also had boosters for various things over the years.
Last couple of years I've had the flu jab.
I rarely get any kind of illness including colds.
RSTurboPaul said:
Getragdogleg said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I came into this thread thinking " have the jab, get a note put on your passport, no big deal". Having read that Mr Blair is all for it I'm now convinced it's a terrible idea and part of a wider civil liberty creep.
Nothing that snake does is of any benefit to anyone except him and a few well paying cronies.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/24/surv...
Guardian said:
A dramatic increase in technological surveillance is a “price worth paying” to fight Covid-19, argues a report from the Tony Blair Institute for Global Change.
...
“In normal times the degree of monitoring and state intervention we are talking about here would be out of the question in liberal democracies,” Yiu continued. “But these are not normal times, and the alternatives are even more unpalatable. This is quite different from the traditional debate about whether confronting security threats to our way of life merits sacrificing the values of freedom and privacy that define us.
“Covid-19 is not an ideology, and rebalancing the contract between citizens and the state to take advantage of the capabilities of new technologies is not capitulation.”
Feb 2021...
“In normal times the degree of monitoring and state intervention we are talking about here would be out of the question in liberal democracies,” Yiu continued. “But these are not normal times, and the alternatives are even more unpalatable. This is quite different from the traditional debate about whether confronting security threats to our way of life merits sacrificing the values of freedom and privacy that define us.
“Covid-19 is not an ideology, and rebalancing the contract between citizens and the state to take advantage of the capabilities of new technologies is not capitulation.”
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-...
Telegraph said:
Former Prime Minister Tony Blair has published his own “roadmap” out of lockdown, complete with a traffic light system for reopening different sectors of the economy, just three days before Downing Street is set to publish its own.
The Tony Blair Institute (TBI) retains strong links to the upper echelons of Whitehall and the Palace of Westminister [why????] and it's probable the new proposals will resemble those to be revealed by Boris Johnson on Monday.
...
But it warns there remain important unknowns. “Whether the vaccine programme will allow the removal of all remaining restrictions without triggering a spike in cases depends on the effectiveness of the vaccines at preventing transmission and the proportion of the population covered”, it notes.
...
“By our calculations, if the NHS achieves its plans to ramp up the pace of vaccination, all adults could have been offered a first dose by the end of May. But ... even once the adult population is covered, it is far from clear that it will be possible to remove all restrictions without having in place a comprehensive containment infrastructure, likely involving digital health passes, better incentives for self-isolation and widespread availability of rapid testing.”
Feb 2021The Tony Blair Institute (TBI) retains strong links to the upper echelons of Whitehall and the Palace of Westminister [why????] and it's probable the new proposals will resemble those to be revealed by Boris Johnson on Monday.
...
But it warns there remain important unknowns. “Whether the vaccine programme will allow the removal of all remaining restrictions without triggering a spike in cases depends on the effectiveness of the vaccines at preventing transmission and the proportion of the population covered”, it notes.
...
“By our calculations, if the NHS achieves its plans to ramp up the pace of vaccination, all adults could have been offered a first dose by the end of May. But ... even once the adult population is covered, it is far from clear that it will be possible to remove all restrictions without having in place a comprehensive containment infrastructure, likely involving digital health passes, better incentives for self-isolation and widespread availability of rapid testing.”
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-9257783...
Daily Mail said:
With my team at the Institute for Global Change, I have looked at this from every angle and come to this conclusion: there is no prospect of a return to anything like normal without enabling people to show their Covid status, whether that means they have been vaccinated or recently tested.
And the good news is that technology allows us to make this work effectively and with privacy.
More than 120 countries, including our own, already demand that international travellers show proof of a full negative test result before entry. Once vaccinations become widespread, this demand will naturally move to vaccination.
Call it a passport, a certificate or proof of status – we will want to know.
...
It is increasingly obvious that other countries feel the same. There is already a host of initiatives starting around the world with this aim in mind.
My Institute for Global Change is involved in many of them, including the CommonPass initiative from the World Economic Forum. Individual countries such as Greece, which is conscious of the huge impact of Covid on its tourist industry, are calling for global agreement on the issue. The African Union has started its own preparations.
...
The point is this: people want to know that those with whom they come into contact are relatively safe – that they are less likely to give them the disease.
This will be the case not just with travel, but with our daily lives, too – with everything from going to work to visiting elderly relatives.
We have the technology which allows us to do this securely and effectively. The need is obvious. The world is moving in this direction.
We should plan for an agreed ‘passport’ now. The arguments against it really don’t add up.
And the good news is that technology allows us to make this work effectively and with privacy.
More than 120 countries, including our own, already demand that international travellers show proof of a full negative test result before entry. Once vaccinations become widespread, this demand will naturally move to vaccination.
Call it a passport, a certificate or proof of status – we will want to know.
...
It is increasingly obvious that other countries feel the same. There is already a host of initiatives starting around the world with this aim in mind.
My Institute for Global Change is involved in many of them, including the CommonPass initiative from the World Economic Forum. Individual countries such as Greece, which is conscious of the huge impact of Covid on its tourist industry, are calling for global agreement on the issue. The African Union has started its own preparations.
...
The point is this: people want to know that those with whom they come into contact are relatively safe – that they are less likely to give them the disease.
This will be the case not just with travel, but with our daily lives, too – with everything from going to work to visiting elderly relatives.
We have the technology which allows us to do this securely and effectively. The need is obvious. The world is moving in this direction.
We should plan for an agreed ‘passport’ now. The arguments against it really don’t add up.
citizensm1th said:
ChrisW_77 said:
citizensm1th said:
I hate to tell you this(I'm lying) but we are never going back to how things were that ship sailed over a year ago.
Forget the life before covid that is never coming back
Nah, you do what you like but it's the old normal for me thanks. Forget the life before covid that is never coming back
Not a chance it is going to be with us as humans forever now and it may or may not mutate into something easy to deal with or it may become worse we have no idea.
But we will have to accommodate for it one way or another
Nickgnome said:
RSTurboPaul said:
Link to source?
Interesting that 'we don't know the long term consequences of Covid' so should instead immediatelyblackmail
coerce 'encourage' vaccination with genetic engineering in a nano-technology carrier, both of which we don't know the long term consequences of.
I watched a session on the news , possibly CH4 that interviewed a few people and doctors. Interesting that 'we don't know the long term consequences of Covid' so should instead immediately
Edited by RSTurboPaul on Wednesday 24th February 14:55
One was a young lad not even a teenager.
There is this on the BBC
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56113021
I do not suffer from vaccine paranoia or other unfounded fears and have had the AZ one.
I have also had boosters for various things over the years.
Last couple of years I've had the flu jab.
I rarely get any kind of illness including colds.
Really?
So we're saying that even if we say 10% of the population have had it (6m people - which I understand is too low), 600,000 people are suffering 'longcovid'?
Yet the BBC and others can only ever scrape together a few examples?
Israel shows under 5% have long term impacts, with six months seeing the vast majority recover - as they would with any serious viral illness:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-study-95-of-...
JuanCarlosFandango said:
Nickgnome
I'll roll 3 into 1 to tidy up a bit.
We don't know the long term effects of the lockdown and all that entails either. Or the vaccine for that matter. It's a question of balancing risks.
I am also ethically opposed to unnecessary medical intervention. I am in general. If I have a cold or a bad stomach I'd rather tough it out than fill myself with medicine. I've refused blood pressure tablets because I prefer to hit the cause of the problem, and improving my habits did the trick.
A personal choice, but one I place some value on having the right to make.
Scientists and researchers do amazing things but they're not unanimous. I think in "following the science" they have given enormous weight to one particular interpretation of the very imperfect data we have and totally disregarded legitimate criticisms of that view.
I know AIDS is different but it can still be spread. There are many varied social activities consenting adults engage in and not having to worry about HIV would make them more enjoyable.
"Happy" probably isn't the right word exactly, prepared or even content seems to fit many better than resigned or tolerating it. For some it seems to have taken on a religious element with rituals and symbols. I find that creepy.
The referendum reference was in response to MrTT saying it was ok to introduce this major policy without a democratic mandate because the majority appear to be ok with it. I seem to remember him being all for overturning the result of the 2016 referendum a couple of years ago. If I have the wrong poster then my mistake. Then wondering aloud how many people had suddenly acquired a new found care for the elderly when it suited a cause they liked.
I agree we all have the right to choose whether we have a vaccine or not but would hope children get the really important ones at the appropriate time. I'll roll 3 into 1 to tidy up a bit.
We don't know the long term effects of the lockdown and all that entails either. Or the vaccine for that matter. It's a question of balancing risks.
I am also ethically opposed to unnecessary medical intervention. I am in general. If I have a cold or a bad stomach I'd rather tough it out than fill myself with medicine. I've refused blood pressure tablets because I prefer to hit the cause of the problem, and improving my habits did the trick.
A personal choice, but one I place some value on having the right to make.
Scientists and researchers do amazing things but they're not unanimous. I think in "following the science" they have given enormous weight to one particular interpretation of the very imperfect data we have and totally disregarded legitimate criticisms of that view.
I know AIDS is different but it can still be spread. There are many varied social activities consenting adults engage in and not having to worry about HIV would make them more enjoyable.
"Happy" probably isn't the right word exactly, prepared or even content seems to fit many better than resigned or tolerating it. For some it seems to have taken on a religious element with rituals and symbols. I find that creepy.
The referendum reference was in response to MrTT saying it was ok to introduce this major policy without a democratic mandate because the majority appear to be ok with it. I seem to remember him being all for overturning the result of the 2016 referendum a couple of years ago. If I have the wrong poster then my mistake. Then wondering aloud how many people had suddenly acquired a new found care for the elderly when it suited a cause they liked.
As to the science if there was any substantive counter scientific argument i would at look at it but there is not.
I am fortunate with my health and very rarely got ill with anything. I've always exercised quite a lot which probably helps.
I have already had the AZ vaccine and will have the second when due and be completely content if I need another one next year. Apparently flu vaccines change most years.
I would not see the vaccine passport, if they actually do get introduced as an infringement of my civil liberties.
It is just my opinion.
RSTurboPaul said:
According to the BBC story, 10% of Covid infections result in LongCovid.
Really?
So we're saying that even if we say 10% of the population have had it (6m people - which I understand is too low), 600,000 people are suffering 'longcovid'?
Yet the BBC and others can only ever scrape together a few examples?
Israel shows under 5% have long term impacts, with six months seeing the vast majority recover - as they would with any serious viral illness:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-study-95-of-...
I've said we do not know yet. It is too soon to tell.Really?
So we're saying that even if we say 10% of the population have had it (6m people - which I understand is too low), 600,000 people are suffering 'longcovid'?
Yet the BBC and others can only ever scrape together a few examples?
Israel shows under 5% have long term impacts, with six months seeing the vast majority recover - as they would with any serious viral illness:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-study-95-of-...
Nickgnome said:
JuanCarlosFandango said:
Nickgnome
I'll roll 3 into 1 to tidy up a bit.
We don't know the long term effects of the lockdown and all that entails either. Or the vaccine for that matter. It's a question of balancing risks.
I am also ethically opposed to unnecessary medical intervention. I am in general. If I have a cold or a bad stomach I'd rather tough it out than fill myself with medicine. I've refused blood pressure tablets because I prefer to hit the cause of the problem, and improving my habits did the trick.
A personal choice, but one I place some value on having the right to make.
Scientists and researchers do amazing things but they're not unanimous. I think in "following the science" they have given enormous weight to one particular interpretation of the very imperfect data we have and totally disregarded legitimate criticisms of that view.
I know AIDS is different but it can still be spread. There are many varied social activities consenting adults engage in and not having to worry about HIV would make them more enjoyable.
"Happy" probably isn't the right word exactly, prepared or even content seems to fit many better than resigned or tolerating it. For some it seems to have taken on a religious element with rituals and symbols. I find that creepy.
The referendum reference was in response to MrTT saying it was ok to introduce this major policy without a democratic mandate because the majority appear to be ok with it. I seem to remember him being all for overturning the result of the 2016 referendum a couple of years ago. If I have the wrong poster then my mistake. Then wondering aloud how many people had suddenly acquired a new found care for the elderly when it suited a cause they liked.
I agree we all have the right to choose whether we have a vaccine or not but would hope children get the really important ones at the appropriate time. I'll roll 3 into 1 to tidy up a bit.
We don't know the long term effects of the lockdown and all that entails either. Or the vaccine for that matter. It's a question of balancing risks.
I am also ethically opposed to unnecessary medical intervention. I am in general. If I have a cold or a bad stomach I'd rather tough it out than fill myself with medicine. I've refused blood pressure tablets because I prefer to hit the cause of the problem, and improving my habits did the trick.
A personal choice, but one I place some value on having the right to make.
Scientists and researchers do amazing things but they're not unanimous. I think in "following the science" they have given enormous weight to one particular interpretation of the very imperfect data we have and totally disregarded legitimate criticisms of that view.
I know AIDS is different but it can still be spread. There are many varied social activities consenting adults engage in and not having to worry about HIV would make them more enjoyable.
"Happy" probably isn't the right word exactly, prepared or even content seems to fit many better than resigned or tolerating it. For some it seems to have taken on a religious element with rituals and symbols. I find that creepy.
The referendum reference was in response to MrTT saying it was ok to introduce this major policy without a democratic mandate because the majority appear to be ok with it. I seem to remember him being all for overturning the result of the 2016 referendum a couple of years ago. If I have the wrong poster then my mistake. Then wondering aloud how many people had suddenly acquired a new found care for the elderly when it suited a cause they liked.
As to the science if there was any substantive counter scientific argument i would at look at it but there is not.
I am fortunate with my health and very rarely got ill with anything. I've always exercised quite a lot which probably helps.
I have already had the AZ vaccine and will have the second when due and be completely content if I need another one next year. Apparently flu vaccines change most years.
I would not see the vaccine passport, if they actually do get introduced as an infringement of my civil liberties.
It is just my opinion.
Nickgnome said:
I agree we all have the right to choose whether we have a vaccine or not but would hope children get the really important ones at the appropriate time.
As to the science if there was any substantive counter scientific argument i would at look at it but there is not.
I am fortunate with my health and very rarely got ill with anything. I've always exercised quite a lot which probably helps.
I have already had the AZ vaccine and will have the second when due and be completely content if I need another one next year. Apparently flu vaccines change most years.
I would not see the vaccine passport, if they actually do get introduced as an infringement of my civil liberties.
It is just my opinion.
We're going to have to stop agreeing like this Nick! As to the science if there was any substantive counter scientific argument i would at look at it but there is not.
I am fortunate with my health and very rarely got ill with anything. I've always exercised quite a lot which probably helps.
I have already had the AZ vaccine and will have the second when due and be completely content if I need another one next year. Apparently flu vaccines change most years.
I would not see the vaccine passport, if they actually do get introduced as an infringement of my civil liberties.
It is just my opinion.
I suppose the passport angle depends on exactly how and where it's required but what irks me is why suddenly now. We never required this for tuberculosis or whooping cough, and the overwhelming majority of people chose to be vaccinated not only without compulsion but without undue guilt or official encouragement. The information and sincere recommendation was enough.
My reading of this in a wider context is that roughly since Wakefield there has been a sort of polarisation between some anti vaxxers who think all of this is a plot against them and some pro vaxxers who think vaccines are a panacea. Like any polarisation the louder and more vehement the one the louder and more vehement the other. With something like 98% vaccination rates I think it was probably worth letting the 2% go for the sake of maintaining the trust and respect people generally do have for doctors and medical science.
I fear the more this is pushed the wider that gap will grow and the more entrenched each side will become. And certainly I find the drive to get everyone vaccinated far more off putting than anything I'd hear from Alex Jones.
So how about this. The vast majority of the population are more than happy to have the jabs, the elderly and the vulnerable are largely covered already and just about every adult will be offered it this year.
Lockdown is being lifted slowly and we have anyway got a lot better at dealing with this, shielding the vulnerable and allowing some continuity elsewhere.
Offer the vaccine, put the information out there and let people decide. Show people that Bill Gates hasn't taken over your mind and you haven't grown an extra head. That the vaccine is saving lives and bringing the disease under control.
If then we still have a rump of awkward loons who are spreading vicious rumours (like we didn't with TB or whooping cough) and it is still causing problems and outbreaks then, and only then, consider how we can quash this and increase uptake without badgering and bullying people in a way that is more likely to stir up resentment and disengagement than cooperation.
Jasandjules said:
Iminquarantine said:
That is because unlike something like Ebola, the chance of dying from Covid 19 is low. HCID measures individual risk once infected. You do not know, or refuse to accept this, because you are a Covid denying fruitcake
So on your own statement the chance of dying is low. No need for a vaccine or health passport then is there? If these insidious passports ever come to pass, I think I would while away all my time (no jab, no job, remember?) on Universal Credit (thanks for the cash) going around town spraying all the car door handles, pedestrian crossing buttons, ATM machines etc with my pooey toilet water. You won't get Covid but some of those tummy bugs can give you a real kick.
Welcome to your two-tier society.
Welcome to your two-tier society.
citizensm1th said:
You guys do realise that in the UK this is going to be driven by industry don't you?
Travel companies will require it
Travel insurance companies will require it
Big venues that attract huge crowds will require it
All the government will do is provide a mechanism for people to prove to these industries that you have had a jab and where and when you had it.
Mostly it will be driven by two things companies appealing to the majority who will get vaccinated and the fear the companies will be sued by relatives of anyone catching covid say at the Cheltenham festival in future.
And just like vaccination no one will be forced to prove anything, it's your choice you just may have less other choices in life as a result.
If it is against your principles to have proof of vaccination well that's your choice and I for one will not be shedding any tears that you cannot do some of the things you used to do pre covid. Nor would I force anyone to go against their principles I will just enjoy the whole less brits abroad aspect.
I think the difficulty with private companies in the UK using vaccine passports for local services, is that once international travel restarts, there will be many international visitors. It’s difficult to standardise acceptable documentation for people from overseas, where the doc may not even be in English. Travel companies will require it
Travel insurance companies will require it
Big venues that attract huge crowds will require it
All the government will do is provide a mechanism for people to prove to these industries that you have had a jab and where and when you had it.
Mostly it will be driven by two things companies appealing to the majority who will get vaccinated and the fear the companies will be sued by relatives of anyone catching covid say at the Cheltenham festival in future.
And just like vaccination no one will be forced to prove anything, it's your choice you just may have less other choices in life as a result.
If it is against your principles to have proof of vaccination well that's your choice and I for one will not be shedding any tears that you cannot do some of the things you used to do pre covid. Nor would I force anyone to go against their principles I will just enjoy the whole less brits abroad aspect.
purplepenguin said:
RSTurboPaul said:
Getragdogleg said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I came into this thread thinking " have the jab, get a note put on your passport, no big deal". Having read that Mr Blair is all for it I'm now convinced it's a terrible idea and part of a wider civil liberty creep.
Nothing that snake does is of any benefit to anyone except him and a few well paying cronies.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/24/surv...
Guardian said:
A dramatic increase in technological surveillance is a “price worth paying” to fight Covid-19, argues a report from the Tony Blair Institute for Global Change.
...
“In normal times the degree of monitoring and state intervention we are talking about here would be out of the question in liberal democracies,” Yiu continued. “But these are not normal times, and the alternatives are even more unpalatable. This is quite different from the traditional debate about whether confronting security threats to our way of life merits sacrificing the values of freedom and privacy that define us.
“Covid-19 is not an ideology, and rebalancing the contract between citizens and the state to take advantage of the capabilities of new technologies is not capitulation.”
Feb 2021...
“In normal times the degree of monitoring and state intervention we are talking about here would be out of the question in liberal democracies,” Yiu continued. “But these are not normal times, and the alternatives are even more unpalatable. This is quite different from the traditional debate about whether confronting security threats to our way of life merits sacrificing the values of freedom and privacy that define us.
“Covid-19 is not an ideology, and rebalancing the contract between citizens and the state to take advantage of the capabilities of new technologies is not capitulation.”
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-...
Telegraph said:
Former Prime Minister Tony Blair has published his own “roadmap” out of lockdown, complete with a traffic light system for reopening different sectors of the economy, just three days before Downing Street is set to publish its own.
The Tony Blair Institute (TBI) retains strong links to the upper echelons of Whitehall and the Palace of Westminister [why????] and it's probable the new proposals will resemble those to be revealed by Boris Johnson on Monday.
...
But it warns there remain important unknowns. “Whether the vaccine programme will allow the removal of all remaining restrictions without triggering a spike in cases depends on the effectiveness of the vaccines at preventing transmission and the proportion of the population covered”, it notes.
...
“By our calculations, if the NHS achieves its plans to ramp up the pace of vaccination, all adults could have been offered a first dose by the end of May. But ... even once the adult population is covered, it is far from clear that it will be possible to remove all restrictions without having in place a comprehensive containment infrastructure, likely involving digital health passes, better incentives for self-isolation and widespread availability of rapid testing.”
Feb 2021The Tony Blair Institute (TBI) retains strong links to the upper echelons of Whitehall and the Palace of Westminister [why????] and it's probable the new proposals will resemble those to be revealed by Boris Johnson on Monday.
...
But it warns there remain important unknowns. “Whether the vaccine programme will allow the removal of all remaining restrictions without triggering a spike in cases depends on the effectiveness of the vaccines at preventing transmission and the proportion of the population covered”, it notes.
...
“By our calculations, if the NHS achieves its plans to ramp up the pace of vaccination, all adults could have been offered a first dose by the end of May. But ... even once the adult population is covered, it is far from clear that it will be possible to remove all restrictions without having in place a comprehensive containment infrastructure, likely involving digital health passes, better incentives for self-isolation and widespread availability of rapid testing.”
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-9257783...
Daily Mail said:
With my team at the Institute for Global Change, I have looked at this from every angle and come to this conclusion: there is no prospect of a return to anything like normal without enabling people to show their Covid status, whether that means they have been vaccinated or recently tested.
And the good news is that technology allows us to make this work effectively and with privacy.
More than 120 countries, including our own, already demand that international travellers show proof of a full negative test result before entry. Once vaccinations become widespread, this demand will naturally move to vaccination.
Call it a passport, a certificate or proof of status – we will want to know.
...
It is increasingly obvious that other countries feel the same. There is already a host of initiatives starting around the world with this aim in mind.
My Institute for Global Change is involved in many of them, including the CommonPass initiative from the World Economic Forum. Individual countries such as Greece, which is conscious of the huge impact of Covid on its tourist industry, are calling for global agreement on the issue. The African Union has started its own preparations.
...
The point is this: people want to know that those with whom they come into contact are relatively safe – that they are less likely to give them the disease.
This will be the case not just with travel, but with our daily lives, too – with everything from going to work to visiting elderly relatives.
We have the technology which allows us to do this securely and effectively. The need is obvious. The world is moving in this direction.
We should plan for an agreed ‘passport’ now. The arguments against it really don’t add up.
And the good news is that technology allows us to make this work effectively and with privacy.
More than 120 countries, including our own, already demand that international travellers show proof of a full negative test result before entry. Once vaccinations become widespread, this demand will naturally move to vaccination.
Call it a passport, a certificate or proof of status – we will want to know.
...
It is increasingly obvious that other countries feel the same. There is already a host of initiatives starting around the world with this aim in mind.
My Institute for Global Change is involved in many of them, including the CommonPass initiative from the World Economic Forum. Individual countries such as Greece, which is conscious of the huge impact of Covid on its tourist industry, are calling for global agreement on the issue. The African Union has started its own preparations.
...
The point is this: people want to know that those with whom they come into contact are relatively safe – that they are less likely to give them the disease.
This will be the case not just with travel, but with our daily lives, too – with everything from going to work to visiting elderly relatives.
We have the technology which allows us to do this securely and effectively. The need is obvious. The world is moving in this direction.
We should plan for an agreed ‘passport’ now. The arguments against it really don’t add up.
Almost as if they just pick on the fear du jour which is in the news, and use it as an excuse for what they want to do anyway.
JuanCarlosFandango said:
We're going to have to stop agreeing like this Nick!
I suppose the passport angle depends on exactly how and where it's required but what irks me is why suddenly now. We never required this for tuberculosis or whooping cough, and the overwhelming majority of people chose to be vaccinated not only without compulsion but without undue guilt or official encouragement. The information and sincere recommendation was enough.
My reading of this in a wider context is that roughly since Wakefield there has been a sort of polarisation between some anti vaxxers who think all of this is a plot against them and some pro vaxxers who think vaccines are a panacea. Like any polarisation the louder and more vehement the one the louder and more vehement the other. With something like 98% vaccination rates I think it was probably worth letting the 2% go for the sake of maintaining the trust and respect people generally do have for doctors and medical science.
I fear the more this is pushed the wider that gap will grow and the more entrenched each side will become. And certainly I find the drive to get everyone vaccinated far more off putting than anything I'd hear from Alex Jones.
So how about this. The vast majority of the population are more than happy to have the jabs, the elderly and the vulnerable are largely covered already and just about every adult will be offered it this year.
Lockdown is being lifted slowly and we have anyway got a lot better at dealing with this, shielding the vulnerable and allowing some continuity elsewhere.
Offer the vaccine, put the information out there and let people decide. Show people that Bill Gates hasn't taken over your mind and you haven't grown an extra head. That the vaccine is saving lives and bringing the disease under control.
If then we still have a rump of awkward loons who are spreading vicious rumours (like we didn't with TB or whooping cough) and it is still causing problems and outbreaks then, and only then, consider how we can quash this and increase uptake without badgering and bullying people in a way that is more likely to stir up resentment and disengagement than cooperation.
I agree with all of your post except maybe you reference to AJI suppose the passport angle depends on exactly how and where it's required but what irks me is why suddenly now. We never required this for tuberculosis or whooping cough, and the overwhelming majority of people chose to be vaccinated not only without compulsion but without undue guilt or official encouragement. The information and sincere recommendation was enough.
My reading of this in a wider context is that roughly since Wakefield there has been a sort of polarisation between some anti vaxxers who think all of this is a plot against them and some pro vaxxers who think vaccines are a panacea. Like any polarisation the louder and more vehement the one the louder and more vehement the other. With something like 98% vaccination rates I think it was probably worth letting the 2% go for the sake of maintaining the trust and respect people generally do have for doctors and medical science.
I fear the more this is pushed the wider that gap will grow and the more entrenched each side will become. And certainly I find the drive to get everyone vaccinated far more off putting than anything I'd hear from Alex Jones.
So how about this. The vast majority of the population are more than happy to have the jabs, the elderly and the vulnerable are largely covered already and just about every adult will be offered it this year.
Lockdown is being lifted slowly and we have anyway got a lot better at dealing with this, shielding the vulnerable and allowing some continuity elsewhere.
Offer the vaccine, put the information out there and let people decide. Show people that Bill Gates hasn't taken over your mind and you haven't grown an extra head. That the vaccine is saving lives and bringing the disease under control.
If then we still have a rump of awkward loons who are spreading vicious rumours (like we didn't with TB or whooping cough) and it is still causing problems and outbreaks then, and only then, consider how we can quash this and increase uptake without badgering and bullying people in a way that is more likely to stir up resentment and disengagement than cooperation.
It's good to have common ground.
And my post above isn't just the ramblings of a madman. Some sensible people at Oxford have the same concerns as this rambling madman
https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/science-blog/covid-19-va...
They don't mention compulsion one way or another. They do mention countering misinformation which I can agree with, adding only the proviso that misinformation should really be tightly defined and should be countered with accurate information rather than silenced.
They do seem to emphasise building trust with transparent and accurate information.
https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/science-blog/covid-19-va...
They don't mention compulsion one way or another. They do mention countering misinformation which I can agree with, adding only the proviso that misinformation should really be tightly defined and should be countered with accurate information rather than silenced.
They do seem to emphasise building trust with transparent and accurate information.
768 said:
Nickgnome said:
purplepenguin said:
What if a country decides that your AZ vaccination is not acceptable because it’s not on their approved list?
Then I would have Sputnik or any other approved alternative. I've had the AZ one and no doubt will have the second AZ one when the time comes.
If i lived somewhere else I would have whatever the approved vaccine was in that country.
I'm not certain but i think there may be some studies on mix and match ongoing.
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