Vaccine/Health Passports
Discussion
Iminquarantine said:
Great! Another anti vaxxer!
I guessed you missed the news not just since Covid but since you were taking childhood Vaccines, that they don’t just protect you. They protect less healthy people, who you will pass infection onto even if your own illness is mild.
Anti vaxxer? Is that even a word? Explain how your theory works logically? I guessed you missed the news not just since Covid but since you were taking childhood Vaccines, that they don’t just protect you. They protect less healthy people, who you will pass infection onto even if your own illness is mild.
For international travel? Fine. What another country chooses to do at their border is of no concern to me unless I plan to visit there.
Domestically? No way José. The Vaccine uptake in this country is already huge. This is just a way of punishing people who refuse the Vaccine or maybe want to wait a year to see if there are any unreported side effects.
Ths introduction of these on a domestic level is a far bigger fundamental change to our way of life than Brexit. Why are the public not being consulted?
Also I agree with accusations of scope creep etc. The way the government has behaved over the past 12 months I'll put nothing nothing past them.
Domestically? No way José. The Vaccine uptake in this country is already huge. This is just a way of punishing people who refuse the Vaccine or maybe want to wait a year to see if there are any unreported side effects.
Ths introduction of these on a domestic level is a far bigger fundamental change to our way of life than Brexit. Why are the public not being consulted?
Also I agree with accusations of scope creep etc. The way the government has behaved over the past 12 months I'll put nothing nothing past them.
Iminquarantine said:
On the proof of vaccination (or exemption for medical reasons). I think it is inevitable, mainly because other foreign countries and airlines will require it in order to enter or travel.
Why is it necessary at all? For the vast majority this is still the disease so deadly that you need a test to see if you have it.
Murph7355 said:
MikeT66 said:
Sorry - I know it's another 'Covid' thread, but the potential impact of this perhaps warrants some specific consideration, I think.
After months of the government saying they will not adopt this route, we now have Gove looking into the possibility. My main concerns are:
1 - Data security. Who looks after this and monitors it. Who has access?
2 - Scope creep. Once this is done and implemented, what next? Passport cancelled if next year's dose is not administered? Is it a back-door route into a Chinese-style 'social credit system'?
3 - It may start with a few theatres/cinemas, etc... but where will it end up? The first step into a segregated society? We've seen that before.
4 - Employment. No jab/no job? Already rumours and stories circulating, of course.
5 - The main one. What happens to personal choice regarding what is put into your own body once this is accepted? As per (1), will the 'passport' be denied unless you keep complying and accepting new regulations? We do not do this for any other disease/virus (incuding AIDS, etc), so why this.
It's just the part of a horrendous slippery slope to me. I'm not anti-vax, but am definitely pro-choice, especially with regard to medical procedures on my own body. IMHO an honest government would be pushing a Bill to actively stop businesses introducing this (if you've had the vaccine, why would you be so scared of someone who hasn't anyway?)... but I just don't see them doing that.
1) Who monitors things like NI numbers etc now?After months of the government saying they will not adopt this route, we now have Gove looking into the possibility. My main concerns are:
1 - Data security. Who looks after this and monitors it. Who has access?
2 - Scope creep. Once this is done and implemented, what next? Passport cancelled if next year's dose is not administered? Is it a back-door route into a Chinese-style 'social credit system'?
3 - It may start with a few theatres/cinemas, etc... but where will it end up? The first step into a segregated society? We've seen that before.
4 - Employment. No jab/no job? Already rumours and stories circulating, of course.
5 - The main one. What happens to personal choice regarding what is put into your own body once this is accepted? As per (1), will the 'passport' be denied unless you keep complying and accepting new regulations? We do not do this for any other disease/virus (incuding AIDS, etc), so why this.
It's just the part of a horrendous slippery slope to me. I'm not anti-vax, but am definitely pro-choice, especially with regard to medical procedures on my own body. IMHO an honest government would be pushing a Bill to actively stop businesses introducing this (if you've had the vaccine, why would you be so scared of someone who hasn't anyway?)... but I just don't see them doing that.
2) Social credits already exist. We have NI cards, few people choose to insist on seeing the physical one though.
3) I expect it to be most places ultimately. It seems logical to me. At least for a while.
4) As 3.
5) You have a choice. As others have noted before, not unlike a driving license. You don't have to have one. But if you don't some "freedoms" are denied you.
With "rights" come "responsibilities".
2) I'm on about the Chinese style social credit score. Given the lambasting that the government have received via Twitter/social media over the last year, I bet they'd love a bit of this. Say/write something critical? Deducted points, a la Black Mirror. We know how internet use links up via cookies, software, etc, and there's already the potential for the Track And Trace app to be modified, so where does this stop?
3) "At least for a while"? Come on... once it's forced into society, it is not getting withdrawn. The last year must have told you that, given the government's avoidance of parliamentary procedure and extensions of covid measures.
4) No jab/no job acceptable? Why? As a risk to work colleagues? As a former H&S Officer, I understand that risks must be measured, but I'd struggle to see why a medical procedure possibly against the individual's rights/beliefs is trumped by the working rights for another.
5) We're not talking about driving/getting a pilot's licence/scuba diving qualification. We are potentially talking about restriction of freedom of movement and access to services. I don't see it as the same thing at all.
Jasandjules said:
Iminquarantine said:
On the proof of vaccination (or exemption for medical reasons). I think it is inevitable, mainly because other foreign countries and airlines will require it in order to enter or travel.
Travelling to another country there is nothing we can complain about. The question is whether "papier bitte" is necessary or even appropriate or acceptable in a free society to access pubs, theatre etc.Jasandjules said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
From whom?https://www.gatesfoundation.org/How-We-Work/Quick-...
MikeT66 said:
Murph7355 said:
MikeT66 said:
Sorry - I know it's another 'Covid' thread, but the potential impact of this perhaps warrants some specific consideration, I think.
After months of the government saying they will not adopt this route, we now have Gove looking into the possibility. My main concerns are:
1 - Data security. Who looks after this and monitors it. Who has access?
2 - Scope creep. Once this is done and implemented, what next? Passport cancelled if next year's dose is not administered? Is it a back-door route into a Chinese-style 'social credit system'?
3 - It may start with a few theatres/cinemas, etc... but where will it end up? The first step into a segregated society? We've seen that before.
4 - Employment. No jab/no job? Already rumours and stories circulating, of course.
5 - The main one. What happens to personal choice regarding what is put into your own body once this is accepted? As per (1), will the 'passport' be denied unless you keep complying and accepting new regulations? We do not do this for any other disease/virus (incuding AIDS, etc), so why this.
It's just the part of a horrendous slippery slope to me. I'm not anti-vax, but am definitely pro-choice, especially with regard to medical procedures on my own body. IMHO an honest government would be pushing a Bill to actively stop businesses introducing this (if you've had the vaccine, why would you be so scared of someone who hasn't anyway?)... but I just don't see them doing that.
1) Who monitors things like NI numbers etc now?After months of the government saying they will not adopt this route, we now have Gove looking into the possibility. My main concerns are:
1 - Data security. Who looks after this and monitors it. Who has access?
2 - Scope creep. Once this is done and implemented, what next? Passport cancelled if next year's dose is not administered? Is it a back-door route into a Chinese-style 'social credit system'?
3 - It may start with a few theatres/cinemas, etc... but where will it end up? The first step into a segregated society? We've seen that before.
4 - Employment. No jab/no job? Already rumours and stories circulating, of course.
5 - The main one. What happens to personal choice regarding what is put into your own body once this is accepted? As per (1), will the 'passport' be denied unless you keep complying and accepting new regulations? We do not do this for any other disease/virus (incuding AIDS, etc), so why this.
It's just the part of a horrendous slippery slope to me. I'm not anti-vax, but am definitely pro-choice, especially with regard to medical procedures on my own body. IMHO an honest government would be pushing a Bill to actively stop businesses introducing this (if you've had the vaccine, why would you be so scared of someone who hasn't anyway?)... but I just don't see them doing that.
2) Social credits already exist. We have NI cards, few people choose to insist on seeing the physical one though.
3) I expect it to be most places ultimately. It seems logical to me. At least for a while.
4) As 3.
5) You have a choice. As others have noted before, not unlike a driving license. You don't have to have one. But if you don't some "freedoms" are denied you.
With "rights" come "responsibilities".
2) I'm on about the Chinese style social credit score. Given the lambasting that the government have received via Twitter/social media over the last year, I bet they'd love a bit of this. Say/write something critical? Deducted points, a la Black Mirror. We know how internet use links up via cookies, software, etc, and there's already the potential for the Track And Trace app to be modified, so where does this stop?
3) "At least for a while"? Come on... once it's forced into society, it is not getting withdrawn. The last year must have told you that, given the government's avoidance of parliamentary procedure and extensions of covid measures.
4) No jab/no job acceptable? Why? As a risk to work colleagues? As a former H&S Officer, I understand that risks must be measured, but I'd struggle to see why a medical procedure possibly against the individual's rights/beliefs is trumped by the working rights for another.
5) We're not talking about driving/getting a pilot's licence/scuba diving qualification. We are potentially talking about restriction of freedom of movement and access to services. I don't see it as the same thing at all.
DonRustone said:
Spoiler alert: This thread will go round in circles just like any other Covid/Vaccine/Winter Tyres/Auto vs Manual thread on PH; everyone has their opinion and very few of us are willing to reconsider, let alone change, our views.
Good luck to both sides
True... and I was aware that could be the case. Good luck to both sides
However, I do see this as being the new potential 'battleground' for civil rights/liberties, and likely to become more important as the vaccine rollout continues and signifies the 'end' of the initial covid measures. We've had massive curtailments of our rights "for the benefit of society" for a year now - this could impact those rights even more, and for longer. All IMHO, of course.
jameswills said:
Iminquarantine said:
Great! Another anti vaxxer!
I guessed you missed the news not just since Covid but since you were taking childhood Vaccines, that they don’t just protect you. They protect less healthy people, who you will pass infection onto even if your own illness is mild.
Anti vaxxer? Is that even a word? Explain how your theory works logically? I guessed you missed the news not just since Covid but since you were taking childhood Vaccines, that they don’t just protect you. They protect less healthy people, who you will pass infection onto even if your own illness is mild.
DonRustone said:
Spoiler alert: This thread will go round in circles just like any other Covid/Vaccine/Winter Tyres/Auto vs Manual thread on PH; everyone has their opinion and very few of us are willing to reconsider, let alone change, our views.
Good luck to both sides
The anti vaccine lot seem to be mellowing slightly though?Good luck to both sides
The first ‘will you have the vaccine’ thread (from nov last year) ended like this,
Whereas this years one is going like this
Similar numbers of no but a lot less don’t knows.
Add in some vaccine related restrictions and I expect the no would be far less.
I can’t seeing it becoming widespread for pubs etc but maybe it might be one of the things that can open some doors or replace other restrictions like a negative test etc.
Each to their own but like many aspects of modern society you won’t be forced to have one but you might need one to experience much of what society has to offer. Seems fair to me, you want the good stuff, you might have to play by the rules that allow it all to open up.
What are people against it anyway? Don’t you think it’s safe or do you just object to it on ‘freedom’ type issues?
I’ll get one ASAP as I think it will reduce deaths and help the country open up more.
MikeT66 said:
1 - Data security. Who looks after this and monitors it. Who has access?
I haven't given it too much thought, but with that enormous caveat, I'd imagine you could just use crypto to digitally sign something saying person with given passport number has had whichever vaccine on whichever date. No need to store anything, just present a QR code to scan at the border.They won't go that route because it'd be a missed opportunity to hoover up data.
MikeT66 said:
4 - Employment. No jab/no job? Already rumours and stories circulating, of course.
We don't need this, uptake rates are great. I'd be all for this being illegal.MikeT66 said:
5 - The main one. What happens to personal choice regarding what is put into your own body once this is accepted? As per (1), will the 'passport' be denied unless you keep complying and accepting new regulations? We do not do this for any other disease/virus (incuding AIDS, etc), so why this.
It's just the part of a horrendous slippery slope to me. I'm not anti-vax, but am definitely pro-choice, especially with regard to medical procedures on my own body. IMHO an honest government would be pushing a Bill to actively stop businesses introducing this (if you've had the vaccine, why would you be so scared of someone who hasn't anyway?)... but I just don't see them doing that.
There's all sorts of potential for issues without even looking any further ahead. Maybe the EU won't let you in on AZ and it has to be Pfizer. Or people with allergies will have to decide between risking a vaccine they're told not to get and being able to travel.It's just the part of a horrendous slippery slope to me. I'm not anti-vax, but am definitely pro-choice, especially with regard to medical procedures on my own body. IMHO an honest government would be pushing a Bill to actively stop businesses introducing this (if you've had the vaccine, why would you be so scared of someone who hasn't anyway?)... but I just don't see them doing that.
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