NHS "Pay Rise" of 1% (real term pay cut)

[loskie]

rossub said:

You’re a bit of a mug if you’re going above and beyond and working loads of hours without pay on just £26k. Do you not have a Flexi-time system?

Nurses don’t do additional hours for nothing for example, they work shifts.

Thanks for that Ross, yes we do have a flexi system and yes you are probably right. But sadly I am quite dedicated (at my own expense in many ways I guess) and am passionate about the industry in which I work.

Maybe a bit radical but I've often thought why not cut the hours? Keep pay the same, increase the workforce to make up for reduced hours. Increase employment, increase staff pool and reduce the impact when staff leave as the pool is greater.

Edited by loskie on Saturday 6th March 12:35

[youngsyr]

ggdrew said:

The crux of any exceptional award should be to target those FRONT LINE NURSING (& probably direct support staff such as porters who were exposed) staff, due to their exceptional exposure to infection and the undoubted work-place stress; set against their relatively low pay level. This is set against a solid gold job security, pensions etc.

Doctors/surgeons/consultants etc, excluded due to their high pay rates.

Agency staff excluded due to their significantly higher pay, vs. NHS staff.

One-off tax-free bonus rather than pay rise. Say £5k. Such a targeted offer is much more affordable and would be more palatable to the population, I'd have thought. Instead of caving-in to the unions' money grab and threats.

A one off bonus for front line staff makes much more sense to me too.

I'd make it £1k and give it to everyone who had regular contact with Covid positive patients; its not about what your salary is, its a one-off reward as a thank you from the country for your efforts.

Similarly, a low level honour of some sort should be awarded to those people, maybe a civilian medal like a "Covid Response Medal" and any holder is entitled to use the letters CRM as an honorific sfter their name, as a further gesture of gratitude.

[princeperch]

youngsyr said:

Similarly, a low level honour of some sort should be awarded to those people, maybe a civilian medal like a "Covid Response Medal" and any holder is entitled to use the letters CRM as an honorific sfter their name, as a further gesture of gratitude.

That'll pay the bills for sure.

[Earthdweller]

Russ T Bolt said:

I only know one person who has had to take a pay cut.

That was my Stepson, but he was earning a very significant salary before the cut of 20%

You are very lucky to live in such a sheltered bubble

[A Winner Is You]

youngsyr said:

ggdrew said:

The crux of any exceptional award should be to target those FRONT LINE NURSING (& probably direct support staff such as porters who were exposed) staff, due to their exceptional exposure to infection and the undoubted work-place stress; set against their relatively low pay level. This is set against a solid gold job security, pensions etc.

Doctors/surgeons/consultants etc, excluded due to their high pay rates.

Agency staff excluded due to their significantly higher pay, vs. NHS staff.

One-off tax-free bonus rather than pay rise. Say £5k. Such a targeted offer is much more affordable and would be more palatable to the population, I'd have thought. Instead of caving-in to the unions' money grab and threats.

A one off bonus for front line staff makes much more sense to me too.

I'd make it £1k and give it to everyone who had regular contact with Covid positive patients; its not about what your salary is, its a one-off reward as a thank you from the country for your efforts.

Similarly, a low level honour of some sort should be awarded to those people, maybe a civilian medal like a "Covid Response Medal" and any holder is entitled to use the letters CRM as an honorific sfter their name, as a further gesture of gratitude.

Shouldn't it be awarded to all employees who've had to work in public facing roles?

[Murph7355]

loskie said:

I'm ready for a traditional PH slating here as I work in the public sector for a Govt agency....

In 2005 I joined at 35 yrs old on £22.5k salary now in 2021 in the same role(but regularly working way above grade) I'm on £26.4k.

What should that be with inflation? You tell me....

"Slating" inbound - stay in the same role anywhere for 15yrs and you are not going to be getting stellar increments. In many industries doing that and getting 1.25% per annum would likely be considered OK.

You want more, get promoted or move (if the market is there for your skills).

[Earthdweller]

youngsyr said:

Did your job significantly increase your risk of death over the past year?

How much overtime did you do?

How many of your colleagues were killed?

There are plenty of jobs where the risk has been considerably raised over the last year, most though have not had the benefit of high grade PPE and early vaccination. Only a very small % of NHS have actually been working in very high risk roles

Overtime is spurious, it is compensated

The Police are the only public body that are having to have physical contact with members of the public without protection, hundreds have been spat at by people saying they have Covid, many have been assaulted during protests and demonstrations.. at least one has received permanent and life changing injuries

One Force lost four officers to Covid within a week recently

Yet, they are offered no enhanced PPE .. they have been told they can’t even get ahead in the line for a vaccine

They are not demanding a 12% pay rise .. just protection from the virus

[rossub]

loskie said:

rossub said:

You’re a bit of a mug if you’re going above and beyond and working loads of hours without pay on just £26k. Do you not have a Flexi-time system?

Nurses don’t do additional hours for nothing for example, they work shifts.

Thanks for that Ross, yes we do have a flexi system and yes you are probably right. But sadly I am quite dedicated (at my own expense in many ways I guess) and am passionate about the industry in which I work.

Maybe a bit radical but I've often thought why not cut the hours? Keep pay the same, increase the workforce to make up for reduced hours. Increase employment, increase staff pool and reduce the impact when staff leave as the pool is greater.

Edited by loskie on Saturday 6th March 12:35

My comment was probably a bit harsh, but I still think you’re mugging yourself. All well and good if you’re pushing for promotion, but it doesn’t sound like you are...

In my experience of working in the Public Sector, nobody cares if you do loads of extra hours and as soon as you’re retired, you’re forgotten. I probably do 2-3 hours a week extra to keep face with me being on a higher pay grade, but very rarely any more than that.

[Earthdweller]

rossub said:

loskie said:

rossub said:

You’re a bit of a mug if you’re going above and beyond and working loads of hours without pay on just £26k. Do you not have a Flexi-time system?

Nurses don’t do additional hours for nothing for example, they work shifts.

Thanks for that Ross, yes we do have a flexi system and yes you are probably right. But sadly I am quite dedicated (at my own expense in many ways I guess) and am passionate about the industry in which I work.

Maybe a bit radical but I've often thought why not cut the hours? Keep pay the same, increase the workforce to make up for reduced hours. Increase employment, increase staff pool and reduce the impact when staff leave as the pool is greater.

Edited by loskie on Saturday 6th March 12:35

My comment was probably a bit harsh, but I still think you’re mugging yourself. All well and good if you’re pushing for promotion, but it doesn’t sound like you are...

In my experience of working in the Public Sector, nobody cares if you do loads of extra hours and as soon as you’re retired, you’re forgotten. I probably do 2-3 hours a week extra to keep face with me being on a higher pay grade, but very rarely any more than that.

It reminds me of this ..



The Indispensable Man

Some time when you’re feeling important

Some time when your ego’s in bloom

Some time when you take it for granted you’re the best-qualified man in the room

Some time when you feel that your going would leave an unfillable hole

Just follow this simple instruction
And see how it humbles your soul.

Take a bucket and fill it with water;

Put your hands in it up to the wrists.

Pull them out and the hole that remains is a measure of how you’ll be missed.

You may splash all you please when you enter.

You may stir up the waters galore,
But stop, and you’ll find in a minute,
That it looks just the same as before.

The moral of this is quite simple,
Do just the best that you can.

Be proud of yourself, but remember,

There is no indispensable man.

[Murph7355]

bhstewie said:

Oh all the procurement was within procedures so it's absolutely fine apparently....

Until you can propose a better system, yes it is.

Maybe your rules would include no company within 6 degrees of separation from any govt minister/MP/Civil Servant shouldn't be allowed to be awarded contracts under any circumstances?

NB This is not a Tory phenomenon. This is a govt phenomenon. It's a "people" phenomenon. How many people in your business life have you worked with in multiple roles? How much repeat business have you been aware of? Referrals?

It also does not get away from the fact that 1% is more than the vast majority of people in this country will be getting this year and for a while. (If the HMRC are getting significantly more then the govt needs a very swift kick in the balls for that).

[Russ T Bolt]

Earthdweller said:

You are very lucky to live in such a sheltered bubble

How many do you know then ?

In my case, none of my neighbours, none of my friends, none of my work colleagues (or anyone employed by the company) and none of my family other than stepson. That is a sheltered bubble of over 50k people.

Edited by Russ T Bolt on Saturday 6th March 13:34

[princeperch]

Earthdweller said:

It reminds me of this ..



The Indispensable Man

Some time when you’re feeling important

Some time when your ego’s in bloom

Some time when you take it for granted you’re the best-qualified man in the room

Some time when you feel that your going would leave an unfillable hole

Just follow this simple instruction
And see how it humbles your soul.

Take a bucket and fill it with water;

Put your hands in it up to the wrists.

Pull them out and the hole that remains is a measure of how you’ll be missed.

You may splash all you please when you enter.

You may stir up the waters galore,
But stop, and you’ll find in a minute,
That it looks just the same as before.

The moral of this is quite simple,
Do just the best that you can.

Be proud of yourself, but remember,

There is no indispensable man.

Well that might be true. But in my department all the people that are applying for jobs are utter shyte. We had 100 applications for 15 positions recently (which in and of itself is poor). As far as I know we haven't made an offer yet to anyone that's been interviewed.

Speaking for myself, I am a grade 7 which is a middle management grade. I and pretty much everyone else I know in my department is now no longer doing any free overtime. If my employer wants to pay me the minimum, then there is very little I can do about that other than leave (which I will do in due course probably). In the meanwhile , I will do my job to the best of my abilities but I will not be doing anything over my contractual hours. This is now being replicated throughout the civil service and is essentially striking without actually striking.

This approach to working was raised at a team meeting where a colleague was present (who is a g6 senior manager). The g5 in charge of the wider division said she had sympathy for everyone on the pay issues and understood why people felt as they did. my department has one of the lowest scores in the staff survey on satisfaction with pay and conditions- I think 80pc said they were 'very dissatisfied' in the last survey and over 50pc said they wanted to leave the department within the next year and even more wanted to leave in the next 3.

Just think about that for a moment. Our staff survey said 50pc of the workforce wanted to leave. That is absolutely shocking.

[Murph7355]

garyhun said:

What would a 12.5% pay rise amount to as a total annual payment?

Complete loss of any public support.

[JagLover]

youngsyr said:

Jesus Christ.


"Nursing barely makes top ten highest death rates by profession"?!

It's 3rd for female nurses and 6th for male nurses.
You really will go to any lengths to defend your prejudices, won't you?

Eh?

Look at the chart further on down Nursing is fifth not third for women and is less dangerous (on this measure) than retail worker or government administrator.

What seems to be considerably more dangerous is care worker. Have you been out banging your pots and pans for them?

My wife is a key worker and been working in an air conditioned office throughout. No doubt why this occupation has a higher death rate than nursing.

[vulture1]

Applications for nursing is up. I guess out of work people have realised it is a very very safe job not subject to major economic crashes

[youngsyr]

Earthdweller said:

There are plenty of jobs where the risk has been considerably raised over the last year, most though have not had the benefit of high grade PPE and early vaccination. Only a very small % of NHS have actually been working in very high risk roles

Overtime is spurious, it is compensated

The Police are the only public body that are having to have physical contact with members of the public without protection, hundreds have been spat at by people saying they have Covid, many have been assaulted during protests and demonstrations.. at least one has received permanent and life changing injuries

One Force lost four officers to Covid within a week recently

Yet, they are offered no enhanced PPE .. they have been told they can’t even get ahead in the line for a vaccine

They are not demanding a 12% pay rise .. just protection from the virus

Have you heard of "whataboutism"?

[Murph7355]

vulture1 said:

Applications for nursing is up. I guess out of work people have realised it is a very very safe job not subject to major economic crashes

To be fair, that could just as easily be down to the vocational side and people wanting to do something worthwhile.

[youngsyr]

princeperch said:

youngsyr said:

Similarly, a low level honour of some sort should be awarded to those people, maybe a civilian medal like a "Covid Response Medal" and any holder is entitled to use the letters CRM as an honorific sfter their name, as a further gesture of gratitude.

That'll pay the bills for sure.

Some people, obviously outside of PH, actually care about other things than money, you know?

Surprisingly, those people often work in relatively low paying health and social care roles.

[Earthdweller]

Russ T Bolt said:

Earthdweller said:

You are very lucky to live in such a sheltered bubble

How many do you personally know then ?

Starting with me ...

My next door neighbour who works in construction who has been out of work most of the year

My other neighbour who has a hairdressing salon that she only opened/refurbished in Nov 19

My niece who works in hotel management who is stacking shelves

The guy who is now doing our local DPD delivery as his cafe is closed

A friend who has lost his job as an airline pilot and who was working in a care home to pay as much of his mortgage as possible

My brother in law who is a carpenter and because the work has dried up is now working as a cashier in a Petrol station

I could go on and on with peopIe know who have been negatively affected and are a lot worse of than they were a year ago

Equally, I know a few that have never earned as much money

[Murph7355]

youngsyr said:

Some people, obviously outside of PH, actually care about other things than money, you know?

Surprisingly, those people often work in relatively low paying health and social care roles.

Haven't you been debating it's about the money for the last dozen pages?