NHS "Pay Rise" of 1% (real term pay cut)

NHS "Pay Rise" of 1% (real term pay cut)

Author
Discussion

rufusgti

2,528 posts

191 months

Sunday 7th March 2021
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loskie said:
One thing I've never understood is the hero worship of teachers and the level of pay that they are on compared with other public sector jobs. They are paid more than govt vets and lawyers.
laugh I don't think it's going to change. I for one have a whole new respect for teachers after watching my wife try and home school our two for a year.

I guess everyone has a different opinion on what's valued in society. For me, the teams who save people's lives and hold their hands when they die, as well as the people who choose a career in teaching our youngsters and hopefully play some part in shaping their future deserve a solid years pay that allows them a comfortable life. It would be unfair I think and also shortsighted to let their pay erode over a couple of decades through inflation. But not everyone feels that way.

rover 623gsi

5,230 posts

160 months

Sunday 7th March 2021
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If there’s a ‘mass exodus’ from the NHS, what jobs are those people going to get?

Douglas Quaid

2,271 posts

84 months

Sunday 7th March 2021
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youngsyr said:
survivalist said:
Roboraver said:
smashing said:
Because no one died in hospital prior to 2020 and it was all roses for nurses and health practitioners...FFS get a grip.
$ickhead comment. $uck you $osser,
He makes a valid point. If you work in ICU, you are used to a significant number of people dying. Why is 2020 different to 2019?

While some will agree that every death is a tragedy ( I don't BTW), even they have to concede that if you deal with it every day then the excess deaths of 2020 aren't of colossal magnitude.
Fcensoredking hell, there are some ignorant people in here.

Do you think that ICU staff just stop caring about deaths after a few weeks in the job?

You think they're some sort of psychopathic robots that are immune to emotions?

I've seen one at the point of tears talking to a mother about her son's death.

Not to mention that many staff will not have a lot of experience with deaths prior to this year.

I'm genuinely amazed at the attitude of a lot of people on here. This was a once in a century pandemic that killed 125,000 people in a year, not just a bad flu season.

Please educate yourselves, FFS.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/22/covi...

Edited by youngsyr on Saturday 6th March 21:21
Even the most hysterical must be able to see that a huge amount of those deaths were nothing to do with covid and were just old people dying, which is sad for the family but nothing out of the ordinary. My wife’s cousin died of a heart attack which was then put down as covid. I’ve read hundreds of other people saying similar. Some people have died of it but certainly nowhere near the numbers claimed. If a bad flu season kills 50k, does anyone think of the nurses? It hasn’t been in the media constantly before this so no, normally people don’t worry about it to this extent.

Due to government response and over reaction (imo) a lot of people are really suffering now. Supposedly ‘we’re all in it together’. If that’s the case then nhs workers with 100% secure
jobs should be ecstatic they can still pay the mortgage unlike millions of others and keep their heads down while they happily accept pay into their bank accounts. All my opinion of course, others differ.

JagLover

42,268 posts

234 months

Sunday 7th March 2021
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rover 623gsi said:
If there’s a ‘mass exodus’ from the NHS, what jobs are those people going to get?
I suspect it is a little more complex than simply pay.

One issue is the glut of people approaching retirement. I am not planning on working long hours in a stressful job when I am in my late fifties and I imagine many NHS staff feel the same.

The second follow on issue is that we haven't invested enough in Nursing training for many years and have, historically, made up the short fall by poaching staff trained by other countries, usually less developed countries.


Pit Pony

8,268 posts

120 months

Sunday 7th March 2021
quotequote all
Quisling said:
Sod it

Double VAT to 40%

Then we can spend the extra in the NURSES

It will create lots of other problems

BUT

It will keep the media happy
Those problems being that we won't buy anything we don't absolutely need ? So the economy will stagnate, people will be out of a job, less income tax revenue, more on the dole ?

It's a balance.

valiant

10,072 posts

159 months

Sunday 7th March 2021
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loskie said:
One thing I've never understood is the hero worship of teachers and the level of pay that they are on compared with other public sector jobs. They are paid more than govt vets and lawyers.
Moving onto teachers now, eh?

Told you as much a page or two ago.

If it ain’t nurses it’s teachers, if it ain’t teachers it’s........



LetsTryAgain

2,904 posts

72 months

Sunday 7th March 2021
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valiant said:
If it ain’t nurses it’s teachers, if it ain’t teachers it’s........
Bloody teachers are never in work anyway. More time off than Rambo's safety catch.

Mr Obertshaw

2,174 posts

229 months

Sunday 7th March 2021
quotequote all
Any NHS pay rise serves a purpose in the bigger picture for the real issue which is recruiting and retaining staff. Nursing now requires a degree and with cuts to bursaries and grants this means committing to a career in nursing comes with a significant financial burden.

Demand for nurses currently outstrips supply. In these circumstances an increase in pay would help improve the supply. The long term impact of the current strategy will be a disaster.

Morale amongst staff appears to be at an all time low currently and across all areas staff are leaving faster than they can be recruited. Older more experienced nurses in particular are taking the opportunity to retire or "get out". Staffing in many areas are now at unsafe levels and look set to get worse. For many advertised posts in nursing you are lucky if you have any applicants.

Another thing to consider is that for most areas of the NHS the crisis caused by covid is yet to come and certainly in mental health many areas have seen a 100% increase in referrals over the past year and this appears to be accelerating. The impact on areas such as cancer diagnosis and treatment, Children's mental health or childhood diabetes is going to be quite dramatic over the next few years.

The current argument regarding pay should be based on these factors and look at the bigger picture rather than pitching it as a reward for hardwork during covid. I suspect it suits the government to keep any pay rise discussion linked just to covid as understandably this wouldn't gain much public support under the current circumstances.

Also I struggle to see where the current average pay comes from as most nurses I know don't come close to these figures.

Similarly for those bemoaning nursing job security and pay I emplore you to retrain and join the NHS so that you too can share in this. I dont think this is very likely to happen though...

rossub

4,400 posts

189 months

Sunday 7th March 2021
quotequote all
Douglas Quaid said:
Even the most hysterical must be able to see that a huge amount of those deaths were nothing to do with covid and were just old people dying, which is sad for the family but nothing out of the ordinary. My wife’s cousin died of a heart attack which was then put down as covid. I’ve read hundreds of other people saying similar. Some people have died of it but certainly nowhere near the numbers claimed.
Completely agree - the deaths due to Covid are hugely overstated.

My grandfather died recently of Kidney failure, but he’ll be down as a Covid death because he happened to have a positive test. He had no symptoms of Covid.


markcoznottz

7,155 posts

223 months

Sunday 7th March 2021
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Sierra Nevada said:
I bet half of you with your fancy cars wouldn't be happy on a Nurse's salary, if you did, you guys would be all nurses, laughing how easy it is and how much you are getting.

Seen some very rich guys on PH and its not because they are nurses. I am sure if you worked hard you would ask for a pay rise and your boss would not say oh you cannot get one because xyz lost his job. Does not work like that. None of you guys moan about Dr's salaries, wonder why?

I would not work my ass off during 15 hour shifts, making sure your family members do not die for £30k. Not worth it. They should be paid more.

I realised with this forum, the rich guys do not like the middle paid people like nurses, teachers or bus drivers to earn a good wage so they can enjoy life.
99% of people on ph don’t have that lifestyle, it’s just you notice the ones that do more.

Gecko1978

9,603 posts

156 months

Sunday 7th March 2021
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markcoznottz said:
99% of people on ph don’t have that lifestyle, it’s just you notice the ones that do more.
Also rixh people don't want others to be poor they just don't want to be made pooer so others get a step up. Nurses pay is an issue because they are threatening strike action when many in the UK are hopijg they just hold onto their job or find ome this year. That is where the resent is coming from.

Sheepshanks

32,540 posts

118 months

Sunday 7th March 2021
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Boringvolvodriver said:
catweasle said:
My wife is a very senior nurse with 35+ yrs experience in ITU & theatres. Unfortunately she isn't keen on posting what she knows / experienced / saw 1st hand on a motoring forum but having slept in a London hospital and not even coming home for 6 weeks during the 1st wave last March, I can't wait until she actually retires like she supposedly had done 5 years ago...even now she's away from home 4 days a week.

As to your point.......I think she may have meant 20% with no previous ITU experience whatsoever....yet "returnees" with many years ITU experience who may have recently expired registrations were only allowed to work as HCA's
This is not a criticism of any staff but whose decision would it have been to use those experienced staff as HCA’s rather than what they were clearly highly qualified for?

And would those highly experienced staff have been a risk working on the ITUs or at the very least more than a HCA?

My guess, for what it’s worth and with no medical background, would have been that the staff would have been no risk to patients in the ITU and would have been of real benefit. The NHS management, so far removed from the front line, would have decided the policy, for the same inexplicable reason that they didn’t take advantage of staff that volunteered for the Nightingales- I know of 3 people who heard nothing at all.
A friend of ours is a recent dermatology consultant so, as you might imagine, she hasn’t been able to do much for the last year. She’s very keen to help at any level but has been told if they need her then they really will be in trouble.

Quisling

539 posts

38 months

Sunday 7th March 2021
quotequote all
Pit Pony said:
Quisling said:
Sod it

Double VAT to 40%

Then we can spend the extra in the NURSES

It will create lots of other problems

BUT

It will keep the media happy
Those problems being that we won't buy anything we don't absolutely need ? So the economy will stagnate, people will be out of a job, less income tax revenue, more on the dole ?

It's a balance.
but destroying the economy in an effort to increase NHS spending would be seen as a good thing

in our massively short sighted world it would be most welcome by many

Welshbeef

49,633 posts

197 months

Sunday 7th March 2021
quotequote all
youngsyr said:
Murmurs from a couple of nursing unions that strike action could be a possibility following a 1% pay rise being announced and reported by BBC.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56299663

Matt Hancock said the proposal was "what we think is affordable" given financial pressures caused by the Covid pandemic.

He added staff had been exempted from the wider freeze on public sector pay to reward their "incredible" work.

There's also talk of a "slow clap" for the government next Thursday.

Not a big fan of unions or strikes, but can't help but feel that a real-terms pay cut is a kick in the teeth for any NHS staff given what they've just been through.

And this government has zero credibility when it talks about affordability - remember the £1bn bung to the DUP to secure the supply and confidence agreement with the Tories?!
You do realise the £1billion bung meant there were cuts from rUK it’s a zero sum game.

Welshbeef

49,633 posts

197 months

Sunday 7th March 2021
quotequote all
With respect to issues of retaining staff.


Well we now and will have millions unemployed desperate for work they can train and fill those gaps.

Also those saying they are going to leave the medical profession - fair enough - just wondering where all these jobs are your going to go into? Also how they battle through hundreds of applicants for said job?

austinsmirk

5,597 posts

122 months

Sunday 7th March 2021
quotequote all
How about we as a nation look after ourselves better?

Don’t smoke, don’t do drugs, drink less. Stop being morbidly obese. Exercise perhaps?

There would be far less call for the nhs.

Of course we could just keep hammering our bodies and hope medical science will prop us up with no regard to cost.

valiant

10,072 posts

159 months

Sunday 7th March 2021
quotequote all
Gecko1978 said:
Also rixh people don't want others to be poor they just don't want to be made pooer so others get a step up. Nurses pay is an issue because they are threatening strike action when many in the UK are hopijg they just hold onto their job or find ome this year. That is where the resent is coming from.
What about when the doctors went on strike? What about when nurses, teachers, etc unions come out and ask for a decent pay rise prior to Covid? God forbid the tube goes on strike (that’s guaranteed to send PH mental hehe )

PH is always up in arms when a public sector worker has the temerity to ask for a pay rise or for the terms and conditions of their employment not to be changed. I remember the doctors strike thread on here and it was just the same with probably the same posters claiming we cant afford it or that they never had a pay rise or work with st conditions so why should they?

Plus la change, plus la meme chose...

There is already a pay agreement that gives the nurses 2.1% but apparently that’s open to interpretation depending if you’re the government or the unions. It’s clear that the government is using Covid as a cover to offer less like many other businesses that are actually quite healthy and where Covid hasn’t really affected them in any great degree (British Gas engineers for example)

As I’ve repeatedly asked before, the budget gave test and trace £15bn extra and no one can tell me where this is going that the original £22bn hasn’t covered. There is money, the problem is is that it’s going to the wrong places.

Vanden Saab

13,896 posts

73 months

Sunday 7th March 2021
quotequote all
Mr Obertshaw said:
Any NHS pay rise serves a purpose in the bigger picture for the real issue which is recruiting and retaining staff. Nursing now requires a degree and with cuts to bursaries and grants this means committing to a career in nursing comes with a significant financial burden.

Demand for nurses currently outstrips supply. In these circumstances an increase in pay would help improve the supply. The long term impact of the current strategy will be a disaster.

Morale amongst staff appears to be at an all time low currently and across all areas staff are leaving faster than they can be recruited. Older more experienced nurses in particular are taking the opportunity to retire or "get out". Staffing in many areas are now at unsafe levels and look set to get worse. For many advertised posts in nursing you are lucky if you have any applicants.

Another thing to consider is that for most areas of the NHS the crisis caused by covid is yet to come and certainly in mental health many areas have seen a 100% increase in referrals over the past year and this appears to be accelerating. The impact on areas such as cancer diagnosis and treatment, Children's mental health or childhood diabetes is going to be quite dramatic over the next few years.

The current argument regarding pay should be based on these factors and look at the bigger picture rather than pitching it as a reward for hardwork during covid. I suspect it suits the government to keep any pay rise discussion linked just to covid as understandably this wouldn't gain much public support under the current circumstances.

Also I struggle to see where the current average pay comes from as most nurses I know don't come close to these figures.

Similarly for those bemoaning nursing job security and pay I emplore you to retrain and join the NHS so that you too can share in this. I dont think this is very likely to happen though...
The main problem at the moment is the high level of qualifications needed to become a nurse. AIUI all nursing courses are oversubscribed but shortages are due to some not meeting the qualification levels. In the old days there were two levels of nurse SEN and SRN. The SEN was for those who were less academic and provided a lower level of qualification and a shorter training period. Many SEN nurses went on to do the conversation course to upgrade to SRN status at a later date.
A cheaper and shorter route into nursing via a similar scheme now with the chance of upgrading to full nurse status in the longer term would not only prove an effective way of recruiting more nurses in the short term but also allow those who are less gifted academically and often from lower social groups with the problems around financing their training but who often make the best nurses a way into the profession.

Gargamel

14,958 posts

260 months

Sunday 7th March 2021
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
My dad is 81, he spent March to December following the Covid rules. In December he had a severe stroke and was admitted. In hospital in Jan he was infected with COVID (no visitors allowed)

Luckily he survived but it had a massive impact on his recovery from the stroke. Very frustrating that we can’t see him due to the risk, but seemingly no internal infection control.

Sheepshanks

32,540 posts

118 months

Sunday 7th March 2021
quotequote all
Gargamel said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
My dad is 81, he spent March to December following the Covid rules. In December he had a severe stroke and was admitted. In hospital in Jan he was infected with COVID (no visitors allowed)

Luckily he survived but it had a massive impact on his recovery from the stroke. Very frustrating that we can’t see him due to the risk, but seemingly no internal infection control.
Hospital acquired infection has long been an issue, hasn’t it? I can remember grandparents fretting about going into hospital as friends had caught something while in and never come out again.

Years ago our neighbours son was involved in a project teaching nurses how to wash their hands.