NHS "Pay Rise" of 1% (real term pay cut)
Discussion
Nurse here (ducks for cover.)
I've been nursing for over 35 years - I retire in June at 55. I could have stayed on but two severe back injuries have left me in constant pain so it's time to go and find a new challenge.
I started when it was in-house training - I was paid a salary to be a student nurse. I've seen how nurse education has changed throughout the last third of a century. Is it better now? I'm not sure, nurses are expected to be a lot more than just "Dr's handmaidens."
I left a band 7 role (out of hours clinical manager) at one of the busiest district general hospitals in the North West. I went to a band 5 role and have been on the top of that pay band ever since. I've had a few pay rises - but for a few years I had nothing.
I have seen some of my colleagues absolutely broken by the demands of the pandemic. One of the hardest things was seeing people die alone without there families, it has profoundly affected me more than I would really like to think.
Do we deserve a pay rise? I think a hefty one off payment - and also give it to those of my colleagues who have died or become seriously ill during the last 12 months. A one off payment is possibly fairer - it's a one off cost rather than ongoing in perpetuity.
Pay and conditions will need to be addressed - other posters have alluded to unpaid overtime - it's a huge problem - https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/nov/15/nh... that's over 25,000 full time equivalent staff.
SD.
I've been nursing for over 35 years - I retire in June at 55. I could have stayed on but two severe back injuries have left me in constant pain so it's time to go and find a new challenge.
I started when it was in-house training - I was paid a salary to be a student nurse. I've seen how nurse education has changed throughout the last third of a century. Is it better now? I'm not sure, nurses are expected to be a lot more than just "Dr's handmaidens."
I left a band 7 role (out of hours clinical manager) at one of the busiest district general hospitals in the North West. I went to a band 5 role and have been on the top of that pay band ever since. I've had a few pay rises - but for a few years I had nothing.
I have seen some of my colleagues absolutely broken by the demands of the pandemic. One of the hardest things was seeing people die alone without there families, it has profoundly affected me more than I would really like to think.
Do we deserve a pay rise? I think a hefty one off payment - and also give it to those of my colleagues who have died or become seriously ill during the last 12 months. A one off payment is possibly fairer - it's a one off cost rather than ongoing in perpetuity.
Pay and conditions will need to be addressed - other posters have alluded to unpaid overtime - it's a huge problem - https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/nov/15/nh... that's over 25,000 full time equivalent staff.
SD.
Shed
Thanks for that post.
One thing that I have wondered (cold as it sounds) is for staff that have fallen ill and/or died of Covid. Is this treated as a workplace injury/death? Do HSE get involved? Does the employer face prosecution?
I do realise that covid could have been contracted outside of the workplace but if dealing with very ill covid patients in restricted spaces in numbers then the likelihood is the workplace.
Look at the news this week when a soldier was sadly killed during a live firing incident. There's an investigation. Why is that any different?
Thanks for that post.
One thing that I have wondered (cold as it sounds) is for staff that have fallen ill and/or died of Covid. Is this treated as a workplace injury/death? Do HSE get involved? Does the employer face prosecution?
I do realise that covid could have been contracted outside of the workplace but if dealing with very ill covid patients in restricted spaces in numbers then the likelihood is the workplace.
Look at the news this week when a soldier was sadly killed during a live firing incident. There's an investigation. Why is that any different?
I am usually the first to laugh at public sector pay demands.
As there is no competition in most roles it makes setting a fair salary difficult.
Ability to recruit seems to be a fair yardstick though: if there is a shortage of nurses then the salary is arguably too low.
It's why I had very little sympathy when the firemen went on strike.
Saying "no competition" though... my OH works in HR/payroll for a charity funded hospice. She is very worried about another NHS payrise, as they have to match NHS pay and conditions, and they simply can't afford it.
They'll probably have to make another bunch of people redundant if the nurses get a big reward.
As there is no competition in most roles it makes setting a fair salary difficult.
Ability to recruit seems to be a fair yardstick though: if there is a shortage of nurses then the salary is arguably too low.
It's why I had very little sympathy when the firemen went on strike.
Saying "no competition" though... my OH works in HR/payroll for a charity funded hospice. She is very worried about another NHS payrise, as they have to match NHS pay and conditions, and they simply can't afford it.
They'll probably have to make another bunch of people redundant if the nurses get a big reward.
Johnnytheboy said:
Saying "no competition" though... my OH works in HR/payroll for a charity funded hospice. She is very worried about another NHS payrise, as they have to match NHS pay and conditions, and they simply can't afford it.
They'll probably have to make another bunch of people redundant if the nurses get a big reward.
This is fairly common.They'll probably have to make another bunch of people redundant if the nurses get a big reward.
I know a number of charities that use local government pay rises as their benchmark.
clockworks said:
I've never really understood the "Nurses and teachers are underpaid" thing.
Where I live, the majority of PAYE jobs done by women are either seasonal, retail, caring, admin, or public service.
Most of the jobs in the private sector pay not that much above minimum wage. Those in the private sector that do pay better are shrinking (banking).
Jobs in supermarkets are quite highly prized, as they offer some flexibility on hours, and pay a pound or so above minimum. There's plenty of younger people with degrees and diplomas working at my local Sainsbury's.
For the majority, earning £20k a year would be considered a good wage. Very little chance of earning the national average.
A way out is to get into nursing or teaching, where £30k is achievable a couple of years after qualifying, with the promise of advancement and a decent pension. Applications for nursing courses are massively over-subscribed, many get turned down. I know a couple of ex-supermarket colleagues in their 30's who went through a lot of financial pain to get a nursing degree, because it was a way to get a more secure and better-paid job.
It might be different in London or wherever, but nursing or teaching is pretty much the only well-paid option out in the sticks.
I think the answer is to massively expand the number of courses, maybe at 2 levels as someone suggested earlier (shorter diploma-level, and the full degree, with the possibility of upgrading), and paying enough to attract the numbers required. This could mean paying a fair bit more in big cities, while maintaining or even reducing pay in the provinces.
There's no reason why a nurse in Cornwall or Cumbria should earn the same as one in London.
You do know that full time hours at minimum wage from April is £19k near as dammit. So when you say a way out of school and a route to £20k after a couple of years... why not be a toilet cleaner full time you’ll get £19k. Where I live, the majority of PAYE jobs done by women are either seasonal, retail, caring, admin, or public service.
Most of the jobs in the private sector pay not that much above minimum wage. Those in the private sector that do pay better are shrinking (banking).
Jobs in supermarkets are quite highly prized, as they offer some flexibility on hours, and pay a pound or so above minimum. There's plenty of younger people with degrees and diplomas working at my local Sainsbury's.
For the majority, earning £20k a year would be considered a good wage. Very little chance of earning the national average.
A way out is to get into nursing or teaching, where £30k is achievable a couple of years after qualifying, with the promise of advancement and a decent pension. Applications for nursing courses are massively over-subscribed, many get turned down. I know a couple of ex-supermarket colleagues in their 30's who went through a lot of financial pain to get a nursing degree, because it was a way to get a more secure and better-paid job.
It might be different in London or wherever, but nursing or teaching is pretty much the only well-paid option out in the sticks.
I think the answer is to massively expand the number of courses, maybe at 2 levels as someone suggested earlier (shorter diploma-level, and the full degree, with the possibility of upgrading), and paying enough to attract the numbers required. This could mean paying a fair bit more in big cities, while maintaining or even reducing pay in the provinces.
There's no reason why a nurse in Cornwall or Cumbria should earn the same as one in London.
JagLover said:
Johnnytheboy said:
Saying "no competition" though... my OH works in HR/payroll for a charity funded hospice. She is very worried about another NHS payrise, as they have to match NHS pay and conditions, and they simply can't afford it.
They'll probably have to make another bunch of people redundant if the nurses get a big reward.
This is fairly common.They'll probably have to make another bunch of people redundant if the nurses get a big reward.
I know a number of charities that use local government pay rises as their benchmark.
Sheepshanks said:
JagLover said:
Johnnytheboy said:
Saying "no competition" though... my OH works in HR/payroll for a charity funded hospice. She is very worried about another NHS payrise, as they have to match NHS pay and conditions, and they simply can't afford it.
They'll probably have to make another bunch of people redundant if the nurses get a big reward.
This is fairly common.They'll probably have to make another bunch of people redundant if the nurses get a big reward.
I know a number of charities that use local government pay rises as their benchmark.
loskie said:
Shed
Thanks for that post.
One thing that I have wondered (cold as it sounds) is for staff that have fallen ill and/or died of Covid. Is this treated as a workplace injury/death? Do HSE get involved? Does the employer face prosecution?
I do realise that covid could have been contracted outside of the workplace but if dealing with very ill covid patients in restricted spaces in numbers then the likelihood is the workplace.
Look at the news this week when a soldier was sadly killed during a live firing incident. There's an investigation. Why is that any different?
Good point; one aspect could be that viruses aren't expected to follow QRs or orders from senior viruses. Clearly medics have procedures, it would be sensible to see that these were followed as far as could be in an emergency when caring professions have been known to voluntarily work doing 'what it takes'.Thanks for that post.
One thing that I have wondered (cold as it sounds) is for staff that have fallen ill and/or died of Covid. Is this treated as a workplace injury/death? Do HSE get involved? Does the employer face prosecution?
I do realise that covid could have been contracted outside of the workplace but if dealing with very ill covid patients in restricted spaces in numbers then the likelihood is the workplace.
Look at the news this week when a soldier was sadly killed during a live firing incident. There's an investigation. Why is that any different?
JagLover said:
Johnnytheboy said:
Saying "no competition" though... my OH works in HR/payroll for a charity funded hospice. She is very worried about another NHS payrise, as they have to match NHS pay and conditions, and they simply can't afford it.
They'll probably have to make another bunch of people redundant if the nurses get a big reward.
This is fairly common.They'll probably have to make another bunch of people redundant if the nurses get a big reward.
I know a number of charities that use local government pay rises as their benchmark.
monkfish1 said:
JagLover said:
Johnnytheboy said:
Saying "no competition" though... my OH works in HR/payroll for a charity funded hospice. She is very worried about another NHS payrise, as they have to match NHS pay and conditions, and they simply can't afford it.
They'll probably have to make another bunch of people redundant if the nurses get a big reward.
This is fairly common.They'll probably have to make another bunch of people redundant if the nurses get a big reward.
I know a number of charities that use local government pay rises as their benchmark.
JagLover said:
For clarity I mean the pay rises, not the full package. Most charities I know only offer a defined contribution pension scheme so there is one large difference.
I know she didn’t get the last pay rise - I think that’s a thing with Tupe, it freezes at the point of transfer. The firm wanted them all to switch to its contract.youngsyr said:
LetsTryAgain said:
youngsyr said:
The government has a literal money printing machine, it's anything but a zero sum game!!!
Yes. Which devalues every single pound that is already in circulation. According to some in this very thread, inflation is at 0.7% (it's actually 0.9%) after a pro-longed period of running the money machine at full speed.
And there seems to be plenty of money for Boris' mates, but apparently not for nurses?
monkfish1 said:
JagLover said:
Johnnytheboy said:
Saying "no competition" though... my OH works in HR/payroll for a charity funded hospice. She is very worried about another NHS payrise, as they have to match NHS pay and conditions, and they simply can't afford it.
They'll probably have to make another bunch of people redundant if the nurses get a big reward.
This is fairly common.They'll probably have to make another bunch of people redundant if the nurses get a big reward.
I know a number of charities that use local government pay rises as their benchmark.
No there usually is no legal compulsion, but often it is just practice that has developed, sometimes for many years if not decades.
I sadly lost one of my nursing colleagues in the early wave of the pandemic, she was 54. At that time we were still seeing images from Italy with critical care patients being nursed in corridors, staff dying and there was a very real fear that the NHS would be overwhelmed.
I went from trauma orthopaedics to the Covid positive areas (mainly because of my seniority), and some staff were very frightened. Fit testing of masks was being carried out, but with shortages of certain types we would be tested on one type and it would not be available so we had to make do with a different one. I've worked in critical care and palliative care during my career - I've never experienced 3 or 4 deaths per shift as was happening on some occasions. Mental health support for the staff was limited initially - it has now got better, mainly via apps or phone consultations. It was difficult not being able to give a colleague a hug and to take time out to have a debrief.
In one way this doesn't make us special, or any more deserving than a shop worker or delivery driver, they too have gone above and beyond what they initially expected to be doing - remember the carnage in the shops initially - I would have hated to be doing that for minimum wage or thereabouts.
There should, in my opinion be some recognition. How we arrive at that is certainly above my lowly pay grade.
SD.
I went from trauma orthopaedics to the Covid positive areas (mainly because of my seniority), and some staff were very frightened. Fit testing of masks was being carried out, but with shortages of certain types we would be tested on one type and it would not be available so we had to make do with a different one. I've worked in critical care and palliative care during my career - I've never experienced 3 or 4 deaths per shift as was happening on some occasions. Mental health support for the staff was limited initially - it has now got better, mainly via apps or phone consultations. It was difficult not being able to give a colleague a hug and to take time out to have a debrief.
In one way this doesn't make us special, or any more deserving than a shop worker or delivery driver, they too have gone above and beyond what they initially expected to be doing - remember the carnage in the shops initially - I would have hated to be doing that for minimum wage or thereabouts.
There should, in my opinion be some recognition. How we arrive at that is certainly above my lowly pay grade.
SD.
LetsTryAgain said:
98elise said:
Of course it devalues the pound. No value has been created. If it didn't them you could just print everyone a sack of cash and it have no impact.
Just ask someone I know.Had £120k in premium bonds in 1994.
Still has £120k in premium bonds in 2021...
Going back on topic, can I just say as someone who has not had a pay rise for two years I would have been very happy to get 1% a year.
I trained as a nurse for a bit s
t job for nice people they are massively underpaid it's obvious when you look at how much the nhs uses agency staff why work for the nhs doing 4 12 hour shifts a week for maybe 30k a year when you can work for an agency and easily earn 50k per year for the same shifts?
Its a st course as well when I done it (2015) you don't pay Loans because there's a bursary the bursary was £500 per month and you had to do 3 placements in in ward per year at full time hours so trying to work around that was a massive pain and you had to work because there weren't any student loans available to you.
t job for nice people they are massively underpaid it's obvious when you look at how much the nhs uses agency staff why work for the nhs doing 4 12 hour shifts a week for maybe 30k a year when you can work for an agency and easily earn 50k per year for the same shifts? Its a s
t course as well when I done it (2015) you don't pay Loans because there's a bursary the bursary was £500 per month and you had to do 3 placements in in ward per year at full time hours so trying to work around that was a massive pain and you had to work because there weren't any student loans available to you. LetsTryAgain said:
Just ask someone I know.
Had £120k in premium bonds in 1994.
Still has £120k in premium bonds in 2021...
You are aware how Premium Bonds work, aren’t you? Unless you know how many cash prizes he’s won since 1994, your example is irrelevant.Besides, he’s £70k of that actually doing nothing as anything over £50k doesn’t get entered into the draws.Had £120k in premium bonds in 1994.
Still has £120k in premium bonds in 2021...
TVR1 said:
You are aware how Premium Bonds work, aren’t you? Unless you know how many cash prizes he’s won since 1994, your example is irrelevant.Besides, he’s £70k of that actually doing nothing as anything over £50k doesn’t get entered into the draws.
I was just about to say max you can pay in is £40 or is it £50k. I had no idea what would happen if you put more in. He is helping out the greater good I suppose. But ouch 1.5 houses outright + the rental on both for nearly 20 years meaning another 1.5 houses bought outright vs now 20% of 1
shed driver said:
Nurse here (ducks for cover.)
I've been nursing for over 35 years - I retire in June at 55. I could have stayed on but two severe back injuries have left me in constant pain so it's time to go and find a new challenge.
I started when it was in-house training - I was paid a salary to be a student nurse. I've seen how nurse education has changed throughout the last third of a century. Is it better now? I'm not sure, nurses are expected to be a lot more than just "Dr's handmaidens."
I left a band 7 role (out of hours clinical manager) at one of the busiest district general hospitals in the North West. I went to a band 5 role and have been on the top of that pay band ever since. I've had a few pay rises - but for a few years I had nothing.
I have seen some of my colleagues absolutely broken by the demands of the pandemic. One of the hardest things was seeing people die alone without there families, it has profoundly affected me more than I would really like to think.
Do we deserve a pay rise? I think a hefty one off payment - and also give it to those of my colleagues who have died or become seriously ill during the last 12 months. A one off payment is possibly fairer - it's a one off cost rather than ongoing in perpetuity.
Pay and conditions will need to be addressed - other posters have alluded to unpaid overtime - it's a huge problem - https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/nov/15/nh... that's over 25,000 full time equivalent staff.
SD.
Good post, my wife's a nurse so I've been debating whether to comment on this thread.I've been nursing for over 35 years - I retire in June at 55. I could have stayed on but two severe back injuries have left me in constant pain so it's time to go and find a new challenge.
I started when it was in-house training - I was paid a salary to be a student nurse. I've seen how nurse education has changed throughout the last third of a century. Is it better now? I'm not sure, nurses are expected to be a lot more than just "Dr's handmaidens."
I left a band 7 role (out of hours clinical manager) at one of the busiest district general hospitals in the North West. I went to a band 5 role and have been on the top of that pay band ever since. I've had a few pay rises - but for a few years I had nothing.
I have seen some of my colleagues absolutely broken by the demands of the pandemic. One of the hardest things was seeing people die alone without there families, it has profoundly affected me more than I would really like to think.
Do we deserve a pay rise? I think a hefty one off payment - and also give it to those of my colleagues who have died or become seriously ill during the last 12 months. A one off payment is possibly fairer - it's a one off cost rather than ongoing in perpetuity.
Pay and conditions will need to be addressed - other posters have alluded to unpaid overtime - it's a huge problem - https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/nov/15/nh... that's over 25,000 full time equivalent staff.
SD.
I agree with those suggesting that pay rates should be set in response to demand. I think collective bargaining has created a problem in all public sector pay there though (and I say that as a bit of a lefty) as that adds to that problem due to regional cost of living differences and demand differences. But there's very little argument that nursing supply is not meeting nursing demand regardless of course oversubscription which is a separate but related failing.
For those questioning why nursing is now a degree, the cynic in me would say it's cost saving (which I've no issue with) done in a slightly deceitful way (which I do have a problem with). I agree that a nurse has many more responsibilities now than they had even in the very recent past. Some are probably thinking of HCAs when they think of what many nurses do. In many cases a nurse's role is now more akin to cheaper doctors rather than expensive health care assistants (my wife has had more specialist practice training than many of the doctors and consultants).
We should do the same with dentists. Don't get me started on why we all have to use an overpaid dentist when 90% of their work could be done with much less specialist training. Why do we not have a dental equivalent of specsavers?
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