Missing Woman Sarah Everard
Discussion
Earthdweller said:
AJL308 said:
Getting into the police is tough - there is pretty much no chance that he wasn't extensively checked out. I'm not suggesting that he has a criminal record or allegations of crime known officially prior to joining the police, rather that there will be loads in his past and probably a lot more recently which will come to light.
Nowhere near as tough as it used to be ! The level of checks and vetting has been massively reduced in recent years
It may be that Cousins dodged full vetting by going from Special Constable to a non Home Office Police Force and then transferring laterally into the Met as a firearms officer as the Met were desperate to uplift the firearms capability
Who knows, it may come out
XCP said:
Is there?
I only knew one such. He was a body builder and a bit of a knob, who didn't last long. I didn't realise it had become a 'culture'. I am not in a position to contradict what you are saying, but I am surprised.
He doesn’t look like a body builder in his army days or when he first joined the police. It seems to have started after he joined. I only knew one such. He was a body builder and a bit of a knob, who didn't last long. I didn't realise it had become a 'culture'. I am not in a position to contradict what you are saying, but I am surprised.
Two of the most frequent causes for police offices to be investigated according to their own statistics are steroid abuse and sexual violence.
The argument that the Police should've known better, should've weeded him out during the background checks, etc presupposes that he was always the way he is now.
People start taking hard drugs, and 5 years before that they might not have gone anywhere near them. People change, become criminals, become rapists, etc. It's a convenient myth that "the signs were always there", in most cases I'd suggest they aren't, or they're easily hidden or suppressed and impossible to detect if there is no actual evidence of prior offences, etc.
He joined the cops in 2011 and the Met in 2018, and presumably at the point he joined he didn't tick "yes" on the "Do you fancy raping someone?" box.
I'm not trying to make any excuses, but I do think it's a bit myopic to try and apply hindsight logic to background checks, etc.
People start taking hard drugs, and 5 years before that they might not have gone anywhere near them. People change, become criminals, become rapists, etc. It's a convenient myth that "the signs were always there", in most cases I'd suggest they aren't, or they're easily hidden or suppressed and impossible to detect if there is no actual evidence of prior offences, etc.
He joined the cops in 2011 and the Met in 2018, and presumably at the point he joined he didn't tick "yes" on the "Do you fancy raping someone?" box.
I'm not trying to make any excuses, but I do think it's a bit myopic to try and apply hindsight logic to background checks, etc.
stitched said:
Worrying, I thought, hoped, that firearms officers were checked more rigorously?
I know one officer who transferred in to our Force from another Home Office Force with an Advanced Driving classification on his recordHe went into Traffic and very quickly he binned a car quite spectacularly
Checks were made and it transpired the other Force had accepted that he had an “advanced car course” from his service in the military but not bothered to check what the course actually was
The military driving course he’d done was at best equivalent to a standard police driving course and certainly not to an advanced level
Our recruitment had accepted it without checking it and as he transferred as an Inspector I’m not sure whether he had to undergo a check drive or to what extent he was tested ( if at all) by our driving school
Edited by Earthdweller on Thursday 10th June 09:35
La Liga said:
HappyClappy said:
Two of the most frequent causes for police offices to be investigated according to their own statistics are steroid abuse and sexual violence.
Which statistics given that’s total BS? HappyClappy said:
Perhaps the culture of steroid abuse in the police has a part to play.
That non-existent culture you’ve made up. I know of one girl who legged it, then resigned when pulled in for a random drug test .. but that was apparantly a coke habit she had
I have known a few cases of people with drug habits over the years
But a culture of steroid abuse .... no not at all
I spent a good while on units that required high fitness levels and/or were subject by role to random drug tests and no one was on steroids
La Liga said:
Looking at the first Met FOI on Google, they had one officer test positive for steroids in three years.
I was involved with the project to help setup ‘random / with cause’ drug testing in its modern form. This was around 2008 IIRC.
Anyone who was atypically muscular / packed it on unusually quickly could expect a ‘with cause’ drug test.
Would a positive test for PEDs have been a dismissal?I was involved with the project to help setup ‘random / with cause’ drug testing in its modern form. This was around 2008 IIRC.
Anyone who was atypically muscular / packed it on unusually quickly could expect a ‘with cause’ drug test.
The Spruce Goose said:
HTP99 said:
Policemen can be baddies too!
Yes it seems, quite a few murder, rape stories recently. Quite a few rape cases on duty as well. https://www.newarkadvertiser.co.uk/news/former-new...
He is generally a wrong-un AFAIC. 12 years ago, when off duty, he (without any doubt based on all the evidence I've heard) got involved in a race with a close friend resulting in an accident which killed him. Sure, my friend had his foot on the peddle too, but he was cleared of any blame of that one too. Seeing him go bright red in the Coroners Court when asked 'so this was in no way a race then' told me all I needed to know.
Edited by Fermit and Sexy Sarah on Thursday 10th June 10:22
La Liga said:
e’s a first time offender whose sentence was under two years.
It’s perfectly normal for a custodial sentence to be suspending in such circumstances.
More information available on the sentencing council website.
Wow. If anything I would have thought the penalties would have been tougher for someone who enforces law. It’s perfectly normal for a custodial sentence to be suspending in such circumstances.
More information available on the sentencing council website.
La Liga said:
HappyClappy said:
Two of the most frequent causes for police offices to be investigated according to their own statistics are steroid abuse and sexual violence.
Which statistics given that’s total BS? HappyClappy said:
Perhaps the culture of steroid abuse in the police has a part to play.
That non-existent culture you’ve made up. 1992, a bike party I was at brushed up against a student party.
We were using the barn in a large farm, the farmhouse was being used by 4 agricultural students.
Late on I was in the farm kitchen where a lot of people were rolling joints, one of the lads from the student side asked his mate if he ought to stop drinking as he was on duty in the morning.
His response was that his mates would let him, after driving into work pissed and stoned, sleep it off.
He went on to tell a room full of smokers how he got his weed free by confiscating it.
I left.
He got a hiding and the area, Waverton near Chester was heavily policed for quite a while.
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: I think Dibble has done a good job of explaining it above (thanks Dibble 
).
It's still a bit difficult to get my head around from a common sense point of view if he goes down the psychiatric route (the idea you were in control when you kidnapped and raped someone but lost control "just" for the murder part seems weird
).
Hopefully the bits he's plead guilty too are enough to see him away for a long time.
Not sure mental health can be seen in those terms. Someone with a mental health problem would be more likely to exhibit 'mental health' problems under stress.).It's still a bit difficult to get my head around from a common sense point of view if he goes down the psychiatric route (the idea you were in control when you kidnapped and raped someone but lost control "just" for the murder part seems weird
).Hopefully the bits he's plead guilty too are enough to see him away for a long time.
The initial decision to kidnap someone is wrong but if planned, was made when the person didn't have any stress. Once the kidnap was done there would be many more stresses on that psychic with no time to think and the sort of pressure which would likely bring more aberrant thinking to the fore.
Earthdweller said:
stitched said:
Worrying, I thought, hoped, that firearms officers were checked more rigorously?
I know one officer who transferred in to our Force from another Home Office Force with an Advanced Driving classification on his recordHe went into Traffic and very quickly he binned a car quite spectacularly
Checks were made and it transpired the other Force had accepted that he had an “advanced car course” from his service in the military but not bothered to check what the course actually was
The military driving course he’d done was at best equivalent to a standard police driving course and certainly not to an advanced level
Our recruitment had accepted it without checking it and as he transferred as an Inspector I’m not sure whether he had to undergo a check drive or to what extent he was tested ( if at all) by our driving school
HR department incompetence like this is common place in industry but given what I hear from people in the NHS about similar I'm not sadly surprised its spread to the Police as well.
julian64 said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I think Dibble has done a good job of explaining it above (thanks Dibble ).
It's still a bit difficult to get my head around from a common sense point of view if he goes down the psychiatric route (the idea you were in control when you kidnapped and raped someone but lost control "just" for the murder part seems weird).
Hopefully the bits he's plead guilty too are enough to see him away for a long time.
Not sure mental health can be seen in those terms. Someone with a mental health problem would be more likely to exhibit 'mental health' problems under stress.).It's still a bit difficult to get my head around from a common sense point of view if he goes down the psychiatric route (the idea you were in control when you kidnapped and raped someone but lost control "just" for the murder part seems weird
).Hopefully the bits he's plead guilty too are enough to see him away for a long time.
The initial decision to kidnap someone is wrong but if planned, was made when the person didn't have any stress. Once the kidnap was done there would be many more stresses on that psychic with no time to think and the sort of pressure which would likely bring more aberrant thinking to the fore.
More likely there will be judged to be criminal competence ... but
Kidnap and rape without doubt
Murder is more problematic as although he has admitted ( I think ) being responsible for her death there is a difference between being “responsible for” and a premeditated intention to cause GBH ( kill her )
The argument would be between murder and manslaughter .. ie he caused her death but he didn’t intend to versus he kidnapped her with the intention of
Killing her
It will make no difference to his sentence in reality just what would be the appropriate charge
I'm a bit confused at the moment.
I know we don't know what evidence the prosecution already holds and what has already been disclosed to the defence, but it strikes me odd that he has entered pleas of guilty to Rape and Kidnap, offences that require actions against the victims wishes, but obviously without any victim account and likely other witnesses, and which carry heavy sentences on their own, but considerations are that he may not plead guilty to murder, although it appears he may accept a manslaughter charge, which won't carry too much additional jail time.
If he's pleaded guilty to Rape and Kidnap, I expect a guilty plea to murder too.
I know we don't know what evidence the prosecution already holds and what has already been disclosed to the defence, but it strikes me odd that he has entered pleas of guilty to Rape and Kidnap, offences that require actions against the victims wishes, but obviously without any victim account and likely other witnesses, and which carry heavy sentences on their own, but considerations are that he may not plead guilty to murder, although it appears he may accept a manslaughter charge, which won't carry too much additional jail time.
If he's pleaded guilty to Rape and Kidnap, I expect a guilty plea to murder too.
the tribester said:
I'm a bit confused at the moment.
I know we don't know what evidence the prosecution already holds and what has already been disclosed to the defence, but it strikes me odd that he has entered pleas of guilty to Rape and Kidnap, offences that require actions against the victims wishes, but obviously without any victim account and likely other witnesses, and which carry heavy sentences on their own, but considerations are that he may not plead guilty to murder, although it appears he may accept a manslaughter charge, which won't carry too much additional jail time.
If he's pleaded guilty to Rape and Kidnap, I expect a guilty plea to murder too.
The maximum sentence for manslaughter is life I know we don't know what evidence the prosecution already holds and what has already been disclosed to the defence, but it strikes me odd that he has entered pleas of guilty to Rape and Kidnap, offences that require actions against the victims wishes, but obviously without any victim account and likely other witnesses, and which carry heavy sentences on their own, but considerations are that he may not plead guilty to murder, although it appears he may accept a manslaughter charge, which won't carry too much additional jail time.
If he's pleaded guilty to Rape and Kidnap, I expect a guilty plea to murder too.
the tribester said:
I'm a bit confused at the moment.
I know we don't know what evidence the prosecution already holds and what has already been disclosed to the defence, but it strikes me odd that he has entered pleas of guilty to Rape and Kidnap, offences that require actions against the victims wishes, but obviously without any victim account and likely other witnesses, and which carry heavy sentences on their own, but considerations are that he may not plead guilty to murder, although it appears he may accept a manslaughter charge, which won't carry too much additional jail time.
If he's pleaded guilty to Rape and Kidnap, I expect a guilty plea to murder too.
He's on CCTV with her in his car.I know we don't know what evidence the prosecution already holds and what has already been disclosed to the defence, but it strikes me odd that he has entered pleas of guilty to Rape and Kidnap, offences that require actions against the victims wishes, but obviously without any victim account and likely other witnesses, and which carry heavy sentences on their own, but considerations are that he may not plead guilty to murder, although it appears he may accept a manslaughter charge, which won't carry too much additional jail time.
If he's pleaded guilty to Rape and Kidnap, I expect a guilty plea to murder too.
I would guess his DNA is all over her body and the builder's bag she was found in, close to his home.
He will realise he is bang to rights on those charges, so pleading guilty gets him an automatic sentence reduction.
When it comes to her killing, he will (I very much suspect) claim manslaughter on grounds of diminished responsibility - the voices in his head made him to it. Hence the headbutting his cell walls in custody to hospitalise himself twice.
It will be up to the prosecution to then prove he was of sound mind to be guilty of murder.
He might actually be mentally ill, or he may well be playing the system to get off with murder. Time will tell.
PurpleTurtle said:
the tribester said:
I'm a bit confused at the moment.
I know we don't know what evidence the prosecution already holds and what has already been disclosed to the defence, but it strikes me odd that he has entered pleas of guilty to Rape and Kidnap, offences that require actions against the victims wishes, but obviously without any victim account and likely other witnesses, and which carry heavy sentences on their own, but considerations are that he may not plead guilty to murder, although it appears he may accept a manslaughter charge, which won't carry too much additional jail time.
If he's pleaded guilty to Rape and Kidnap, I expect a guilty plea to murder too.
He's on CCTV with her in his car.I know we don't know what evidence the prosecution already holds and what has already been disclosed to the defence, but it strikes me odd that he has entered pleas of guilty to Rape and Kidnap, offences that require actions against the victims wishes, but obviously without any victim account and likely other witnesses, and which carry heavy sentences on their own, but considerations are that he may not plead guilty to murder, although it appears he may accept a manslaughter charge, which won't carry too much additional jail time.
If he's pleaded guilty to Rape and Kidnap, I expect a guilty plea to murder too.
I would guess his DNA is all over her body and the builder's bag she was found in, close to his home.
He will realise he is bang to rights on those charges, so pleading guilty gets him an automatic sentence reduction.
When it comes to her killing, he will (I very much suspect) claim manslaughter on grounds of diminished responsibility - the voices in his head made him to it. Hence the headbutting his cell walls in custody to hospitalise himself twice.
It will be up to the prosecution to then prove he was of sound mind to be guilty of murder.
He might actually be mentally ill, or he may well be playing the system to get off with murder. Time will tell.
I suspect that the "medical reports" they are gathering in advance of him being asked to plead on the murder charge are a case of "crossing the I's and dotting the T's" by both sides. One way the other, I think he's going down for murder and the sentence will be life with a Whole Life Order. At the very least the starting point will be 30 years with an uplift of some sort.
It's important for the purposes of justice, morality and basic societal cohesion that this guy goes down for a very, very long time. If he doesn't there will be outrage, and rightly so.
PurpleTurtle said:
It will be up to the prosecution to then prove he was of sound mind to be guilty of murder.
He might actually be mentally ill, or he may well be playing the system to get off with murder. Time will tell.
Earthdweller said:
the tribester said:
I'm a bit confused at the moment.
I know we don't know what evidence the prosecution already holds and what has already been disclosed to the defence, but it strikes me odd that he has entered pleas of guilty to Rape and Kidnap, offences that require actions against the victims wishes, but obviously without any victim account and likely other witnesses, and which carry heavy sentences on their own, but considerations are that he may not plead guilty to murder, although it appears he may accept a manslaughter charge, which won't carry too much additional jail time.
If he's pleaded guilty to Rape and Kidnap, I expect a guilty plea to murder too.
The maximum sentence for manslaughter is life I know we don't know what evidence the prosecution already holds and what has already been disclosed to the defence, but it strikes me odd that he has entered pleas of guilty to Rape and Kidnap, offences that require actions against the victims wishes, but obviously without any victim account and likely other witnesses, and which carry heavy sentences on their own, but considerations are that he may not plead guilty to murder, although it appears he may accept a manslaughter charge, which won't carry too much additional jail time.
If he's pleaded guilty to Rape and Kidnap, I expect a guilty plea to murder too.
the tribester said:
Earthdweller said:
the tribester said:
I'm a bit confused at the moment.
I know we don't know what evidence the prosecution already holds and what has already been disclosed to the defence, but it strikes me odd that he has entered pleas of guilty to Rape and Kidnap, offences that require actions against the victims wishes, but obviously without any victim account and likely other witnesses, and which carry heavy sentences on their own, but considerations are that he may not plead guilty to murder, although it appears he may accept a manslaughter charge, which won't carry too much additional jail time.
If he's pleaded guilty to Rape and Kidnap, I expect a guilty plea to murder too.
The maximum sentence for manslaughter is life I know we don't know what evidence the prosecution already holds and what has already been disclosed to the defence, but it strikes me odd that he has entered pleas of guilty to Rape and Kidnap, offences that require actions against the victims wishes, but obviously without any victim account and likely other witnesses, and which carry heavy sentences on their own, but considerations are that he may not plead guilty to murder, although it appears he may accept a manslaughter charge, which won't carry too much additional jail time.
If he's pleaded guilty to Rape and Kidnap, I expect a guilty plea to murder too.
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