No evidence the UK is institutionally racist

No evidence the UK is institutionally racist

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g3org3y

Original Poster:

20,606 posts

190 months

Wednesday 31st March 2021
quotequote all
article said:
The Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities, set up after Black Lives Matter protests in 2020, found outcomes had as much to do with social class and family structure as race.

Concerns the UK is institutionally racist are not borne out by the evidence, the commission says.

But overt racism remains, it adds.

...

The commission's report, which is due to be published later, said the UK had seen improvements such as an increase in diversity in elite professions and a shrinking ethnicity pay gap - although certain disparities remained.

It also found that children from ethnic communities did as well or better than white pupils in compulsory education, with black Caribbean pupils the only group to perform less well.

The aspirations and hard work of those from ethnic communities have "transformed British society over the last 50 years into one offering far greater opportunities for all", the commission said.

Education was "the single most emphatic success story of the British ethnic minority experience" and the most important tool in reducing racial disparities.

The commission noted that the pay gap between all ethnic minorities and the white majority population had shrunk to 2.3% and was not significant for employees under 30, while diversity had increased in professions such as law and medicine.

Success in education and, to a lesser extent, the economy, "should be regarded as a model for other white-majority countries", it added.
Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56585538

Facts > Feels

Some of the pressure groups out there aren't going to be happy with the conclusions.

DOI: Brown skinned doctor son of immigrants.

JagLover

42,266 posts

234 months

Wednesday 31st March 2021
quotequote all
g3org3y said:
Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56585538

Facts > Feels

Some of the pressure groups out there aren't going to be happy with the conclusions.

DOI: Brown skinned doctor son of immigrants.
Probably why I saw an article the other day calling for an end to the use of the category BAME. If you collectively compare all BAME to the white population then you struggle to see any evidence of "white privilege" due to the fact many ethnic minority communities outperform the white British population, on average.


Ian Geary

4,464 posts

191 months

Wednesday 31st March 2021
quotequote all
The perception of racism is very much there though.

Is standing in front of a banner saying "no, no, you've all got it wrong" going to be enough to get rid of the perception?

I would agree with commentators that the subject has become weaponised, making it *very* hard to talk about.

My view is number 10 needs to acquire some moral capital before approaching this
- sort out windrush properly
- proper review of substantially different outcomes for different ethnic groups (yes, including poor white people)
- sub division of bame to properly understand factors affecting different groups

and so on.

As it stands, this report (when it's released) will be rejected out of hand.

voyds9

8,488 posts

282 months

Wednesday 31st March 2021
quotequote all
Ian Geary said:
SNIP
The perception of racism is very much there though.

My view is number 10 needs to acquire some moral capital before approaching this
- proper review of substantially different outcomes for different ethnic groups (yes, including poor white people)
- sub division of bame to properly understand factors affecting different groups

and so on.

As it stands, this report (when it's released) will be rejected out of hand.
So you want equality of outcome not opportunity
So how do we force people to do certain things they fairly obviously don't want to do now ie how do you force white boys to get more education, or more black boys in to the police or more Chinese kids to become welder

And when you subdivide BAME, the East Asians (Chinese etc) will be the top of the pile for earnings and education. Will this create more resentment from them lower down (it has in the US)

Gecko1978

9,603 posts

156 months

Wednesday 31st March 2021
quotequote all
So all that knealing for the camera's (looking you Kier and crayons) was pointless...who knew.

bitchstewie

50,810 posts

209 months

Wednesday 31st March 2021
quotequote all
Not sure how you would show a nation to institutionally racist?

We saw things like the Macpherson report which wasn't all that long ago which suggested some issues in some areas.

You also have the Prime Minister using terms such as.

"letterboxes"

"bank robbers"

"picanninies with watermelon smiles"

Can't think why anyone might have the impression there's a problem scratchchin

I don't think we are as a nation but there's certainly work to do.

BurtonLazars

579 posts

43 months

Wednesday 31st March 2021
quotequote all
The US and the UK are not exactly the same.^
...and yet our population increasingly spends its time online - which is dominated by US news, US politics, and US values, and many of our companies are owned by US corporations, leading to a US culture spreading.

I perceive that much of our beliefs and activism are derived from this environment. I wish we (Britain) were more able to detach from US culture, to soak in and examine our own problems, and to be angry and active about resolving those instead.



^im not saying there’s no discrimination in the UK, you silly goose. I’m saying it’s different for different reasons.

BurtonLazars

579 posts

43 months

Wednesday 31st March 2021
quotequote all
bhstewie said:
Not sure how you would show a nation to institutionally racist?
...gestures broadly at the USA

(Although I’d use the term structurally rather than institutionally)

s1962a

5,283 posts

161 months

Wednesday 31st March 2021
quotequote all
Personally, I don't think the UK is institutionally racist. It does have some right twunts in it though.

Well, the only I remember is being told by some old gent in the Air Force that I couldn't get into the Air Force cadets at 16 because of my ancestry, which is fair enough, but boy did that shatter a dream.

fido

16,752 posts

254 months

Wednesday 31st March 2021
quotequote all
voyds9 said:
Will this create more resentment from them lower down (it has in the US)
Unfortunately that appears to be the result when you tell a group that their Lives Matter more.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9417083/A...

I hope the perpetrator gets the same level of attention that Derek Chauvin has.

Supercilious Sid

2,574 posts

160 months

Wednesday 31st March 2021
quotequote all
g3org3y said:
Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56585538

Facts > Feels

Some of the pressure groups out there aren't going to be happy with the conclusions.

DOI: Brown skinned doctor son of immigrants.
Some of the tankies on here will be pissed off the rug has been pulled from under their feet.

Greg_D

6,542 posts

245 months

Wednesday 31st March 2021
quotequote all
JagLover said:
Probably why I saw an article the other day calling for an end to the use of the category BAME. If you collectively compare all BAME to the white population then you struggle to see any evidence of "white privilege" due to the fact many ethnic minority communities outperform the white British population, on average.
So we have to make the cap fit..... got it.
This martyrdom is getting a bit boring now. Why can’t people just focus on developing themselves as opposed to looking for (largely) imaginary racism where none exists.

Other than the very occasional knuckle dragging idiot, there is no overt racism in the uk, and to keep pointing to ever reducing fractions of ‘implied’ racism or bias or whatever just demeans the wider message of ‘get on with your life’

If everyone just stopped getting triggered over every little perceived slight then it would all just blow over and everyone would move forward together...

As a white man I feel quite victimised by the implication that I am a de facto racist purely because of my heritage, not my actions...

sealtt

3,091 posts

157 months

Wednesday 31st March 2021
quotequote all
BurtonLazars said:
The US and the UK are not exactly the same.^
...and yet our population increasingly spends its time online - which is dominated by US news, US politics, and US values, and many of our companies are owned by US corporations, leading to a US culture spreading.

I perceive that much of our beliefs and activism are derived from this environment. I wish we (Britain) were more able to detach from US culture, to soak in and examine our own problems, and to be angry and active about resolving those instead.



^im not saying there’s no discrimination in the UK, you silly goose. I’m saying it’s different for different reasons.
I think in the past year the U.K. has been increasingly culturally-colonised by the US, this is primarily as a result of the lockdown which resulted in people consuming ever greater amounts of US media content.

Gecko1978

9,603 posts

156 months

Wednesday 31st March 2021
quotequote all
Greg_D said:
So we have to make the cap fit..... got it.
This martyrdom is getting a bit boring now. Why can’t people just focus on developing themselves as opposed to looking for (largely) imaginary racism where none exists.

Other than the very occasional knuckle dragging idiot, there is no overt racism in the uk, and to keep pointing to ever reducing fractions of ‘implied’ racism or bias or whatever just demeans the wider message of ‘get on with your life’

If everyone just stopped getting triggered over every little perceived slight then it would all just blow over and everyone would move forward together...

As a white man I feel quite victimised by the implication that I am a de facto racist purely because of my heritage, not my actions...
Don't feel victimized as a white male but I do feel people want me to feel some guilt because of it. I simply don't feel any and I don't on the whole set out to offend or discriminate agaist any one. But for some that's not enough and that is where the tension builds.

Will people like me saying I don't need to or I won't change be used as examples of the problem when objectively looked at we are not racist but people need a boogy man and white people are the answer even if today their is little eveidence to support that.

Jinx

11,345 posts

259 months

Wednesday 31st March 2021
quotequote all
bhstewie said:

You also have the Prime Minister using terms such as.

"bank robbers"
To be fair to the PM he did introduce law to make us all look like bank robbers......

BurtonLazars

579 posts

43 months

Wednesday 31st March 2021
quotequote all
sealtt said:
I think in the past year the U.K. has been increasingly culturally-colonised by the US, this is primarily as a result of the lockdown which resulted in people consuming ever greater amounts of US media content.
I agree, although I’d add the twist that you’re talking about older people - the younger people were already there.

Murph7355

37,651 posts

255 months

Wednesday 31st March 2021
quotequote all
bhstewie said:
Not sure how you would show a nation to institutionally racist?....

I don't think we are as a nation but there's certainly work to do.
I guess you set up a commission to look at ALL the info available and let it come to an independent conclusion.

That commission seems to agree with your closing point.

It is precisely zero surprise that outcomes have more to do with social matters and family structure than race. We must start pushing this as a nation. Otherwise we will get nowhere.

Ditching the BAME tag isn't a bad start. But much more needs to be done. Address the real roots of the problems (causation not correlation) as they are today and we may see improvement across the board..

anxious_ant

2,626 posts

78 months

Wednesday 31st March 2021
quotequote all
voyds9 said:
So you want equality of outcome not opportunity
So how do we force people to do certain things they fairly obviously don't want to do now ie how do you force white boys to get more education, or more black boys in to the police or more Chinese kids to become welder

And when you subdivide BAME, the East Asians (Chinese etc) will be the top of the pile for earnings and education. Will this create more resentment from them lower down (it has in the US)
The Asian hate in US looks pretty grim now. I’ve seen a few videos of Asians being physically attacked, some ironically by blacks. Probably because of COVID though.

I’d like to see some stats stating that East Asians are top of the pile in the UK though, especially in terms of earnings.

bigothunter

11,069 posts

59 months

Wednesday 31st March 2021
quotequote all
I am a white man and I'm sorry. You choose scratchchin






98elise

26,380 posts

160 months

Wednesday 31st March 2021
quotequote all
bhstewie said:
Not sure how you would show a nation to institutionally racist?

We saw things like the Macpherson report which wasn't all that long ago which suggested some issues in some areas.

You also have the Prime Minister using terms such as.

"letterboxes"

"bank robbers"

"picanninies with watermelon smiles"

Can't think why anyone might have the impression there's a problem scratchchin

I don't think we are as a nation but there's certainly work to do.
When the alternative is the anti-Semitic party you go with the least worse option.