No evidence the UK is institutionally racist
Discussion
voyds9 said:
So you want equality of outcome not opportunity
So how do we force people to do certain things they fairly obviously don't want to do now ie how do you force white boys to get more education, or more black boys in to the police or more Chinese kids to become welder
Making the claim that white boys fairly obviously don’t want to get more education is easily the worst anti- equality of outcome argument I’ve ever read So how do we force people to do certain things they fairly obviously don't want to do now ie how do you force white boys to get more education, or more black boys in to the police or more Chinese kids to become welder
fido said:
voyds9 said:
Will this create more resentment from them lower down (it has in the US)
Unfortunately that appears to be the result when you tell a group that their Lives Matter more.https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9417083/A...
I hope the perpetrator gets the same level of attention that Derek Chauvin has.
Supercilious Sid said:
g3org3y said:
Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56585538
Facts > Feels
Some of the pressure groups out there aren't going to be happy with the conclusions.
DOI: Brown skinned doctor son of immigrants.
Some of the tankies on here will be pissed off the rug has been pulled from under their feet. Facts > Feels
Some of the pressure groups out there aren't going to be happy with the conclusions.
DOI: Brown skinned doctor son of immigrants.
“That can’t be true! Look at how well all these Chinese people are doing”
This isn’t showing there is no racism, it’s showing that it is a far more nuanced picture but that things are going in the right direction.
It also shows that we have failed other groups. White working class boys and men have been failed. In part because they have been excluded from change and opportunity and in part because they have been blamed for many ills. It always concerns me when we see middle class BAME and women’s rights activists talking about privilege and excluding men, especially white working class men, from the conversation about equality. That’s what drives a lot of hate and anger.
It always angered me growing up in a white, working class ex-mining village (although I’m not white working class) when I saw films of urban farms, trips of young London kids to “the countryside” and so on. I could see then that they had privilege from living in a city that we never could. We had a shop and a poorly maintained park. We had no other entertainment or facilities. We had lots of idleness and little else. We were being told by TV that we were luck to live in the countryside. Most of the countryside is farms with crops and animals behind gates and fences. The wide open vistas of the country houses and national parks were further away from us, with one bus a day, than those living in the high rises of London, with tube lines, trains and royal parks.
sealtt said:
I think in the past year the U.K. has been increasingly culturally-colonised by the US, this is primarily as a result of the lockdown which resulted in people consuming ever greater amounts of US media content.
It scarcely needs pointing out that America has a rather different history of race relations than the UK!Not to say that the UK was a haven of racial tolerance in the past, just that it doesn't have that past history of slavery on home soil, or formal discrimination against an ethnic minority by the state.
Our past issues are far more to do with class and we had our first BAME MP before we had our first working class MP (in 1874)
anxious_ant said:
The Asian hate in US looks pretty grim now. I’ve seen a few videos of Asians being physically attacked, some ironically by blacks. Probably because of COVID though.
I’d like to see some stats stating that East Asians are top of the pile in the UK though, especially in terms of earnings.
Racial incidents by Blacks against Asians have been significant for a long time in the US, so there isn't anything particularly "ironic" about it. I’d like to see some stats stating that East Asians are top of the pile in the UK though, especially in terms of earnings.
Shriver said:
As for the inconvenient truth, the journalist Andrew Sullivan has looked up the figures. Only 24 per cent of violent attacks on Asian-Americans are committed by whites, 28 per cent by blacks — twice the proportion of blacks in the population. Since the 1980s, black urban communities have evidenced a simmering resentment towards enterprising Asian immigrants, typically expressed through attacks on Asian-owned family businesses like fruit-and-vegetable shops. Anti-Asian sentiment in the US is real all right, but it’s not predominantly white, and it’s not new.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-to-make-the-facts-fit-the-narrativeWhich highlights the problem of pretending racism is a white only issue and to base everything on critical race theory.
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hstewie said:
hstewie said:98elise said:
When the alternative is the anti-Semitic party you go with the least worse option.
Or you ask why those kind of issues exist in both the major parties and why you have that kind of a choice to make around the person who represents the nation on the world stage.Boris has said some things which are a bit racist and Corbyn wasn’t quick enough to respond to accusations of racism but I don’t think the U.K. main parties are obviously racist.
Farage on the other hand seems more racist or certainly xenophobic in the way that he uses imagery and speeches to stoke up fear about foreigners arriving.
It’s likely most people have all kinds of different levels of -ism going on to varying extents but nobody thinks we’re racist ourselves though and it’s likely all about where we see ourselves and others on the “racist scale”. Farage probably looks at the BNP or EDL etc and says they’re the racists.
It’s impossible for everyone to remove every bit of or prejudices, so when does it become a problem? Id say that in Britain chances and opportunities exist for everyone, the kind of ‘institutional racism’ people are arguing about nowadays is pretty hard to quantify or do much about and we’re likely reaching a point where the overt search for racism is becoming a problem itself and issues (based on thoughts and feelings) are being overblown and politicised instead of actual problems.
Like the report says, outcomes are likely more to do with income and socio economic issues than race. There’s poor outcomes for white people too based on their parents or where they’re born. As said above, white working class boys are having poor outcomes but that’s not seen as race related.
Electro1980 said:
Were the perpetrators police?
No but if you're going to make it a 'race' thing then my sympathies are more towards the 65-year woman who 1. wasn't high on drugs 2. on her way to church 3. perpetrator explictily makes it a race thing. And that's not to excuse the brutality meated out by a group of multi-ethnic policemen.Edited by fido on Wednesday 31st March 11:11
andy_s said:
To make dragons of lizards is the trick of the dragon-slayer in the land of no dragons.
i like this, it sums up the problem quite succinctly. immediately followed by...El stovey said:
Farage on the other hand seems more racist or certainly xenophobic in the way that he uses imagery and speeches to stoke up fear about foreigners arriving.
It’s likely most people have all kinds of different levels of -ism going on to varying extents but nobody thinks we’re racist ourselves though and it’s likely all about where we see ourselves and others on the “racist scale”. Farage probably looks at the BNP or EDL etc and says they’re the racists.
...yet another throwaway accusation of racism with the presumption that it is some sort of inalienable truth.It’s likely most people have all kinds of different levels of -ism going on to varying extents but nobody thinks we’re racist ourselves though and it’s likely all about where we see ourselves and others on the “racist scale”. Farage probably looks at the BNP or EDL etc and says they’re the racists.
Stovey, i'd be obliged if you could link something to substantiate your assumption that farage is a racist!
you may not like his politics, and he may well be a nationalist (not a xenophobe - for god sake, the chap married a german...) but to casually just chuck those sort of grenades around leads us to EXACTLY this place where everyone is prickly and defensive and nothing improves...
but i suppose that keeps the permanently offended in a job, doesn't it!!!!
El stovey said:
....
It’s impossible for everyone to remove every bit of or prejudices, so when does it become a problem? Id say that in Britain chances and opportunities exist for everyone, the kind of ‘institutional racism’ people are arguing about nowadays is pretty hard to quantify or do much about and we’re likely reaching a point where the overt search for racism is becoming a problem itself and issues (based on thoughts and feelings) are being overblown and politicised instead of actual problems.
Like the report says, outcomes are likely more to do with income and socio economic issues than race. There’s poor outcomes for white people too based on their parents or where they’re born. As said above, white working class boys are having poor outcomes but that’s not seen as race related.
This 100%.It’s impossible for everyone to remove every bit of or prejudices, so when does it become a problem? Id say that in Britain chances and opportunities exist for everyone, the kind of ‘institutional racism’ people are arguing about nowadays is pretty hard to quantify or do much about and we’re likely reaching a point where the overt search for racism is becoming a problem itself and issues (based on thoughts and feelings) are being overblown and politicised instead of actual problems.
Like the report says, outcomes are likely more to do with income and socio economic issues than race. There’s poor outcomes for white people too based on their parents or where they’re born. As said above, white working class boys are having poor outcomes but that’s not seen as race related.
In searching for equality we have to mean it across the board.
Greg_D said:
...yet another throwaway accusation of racism with the presumption that it is some sort of inalienable truth.
Stovey, i'd be obliged if you could link something to substantiate your assumption that farage is a racist!
you may not like his politics, and he may well be a nationalist (not a xenophobe - for god sake, the chap married a german...) but to casually just chuck those sort of grenades around leads us to EXACTLY this place where everyone is prickly and defensive and nothing improves...
but i suppose that keeps the permanently offended in a job, doesn't it!!!!
He didn't say Farage IS racist. He said he seems racist from the imagery he uses.Stovey, i'd be obliged if you could link something to substantiate your assumption that farage is a racist!
you may not like his politics, and he may well be a nationalist (not a xenophobe - for god sake, the chap married a german...) but to casually just chuck those sort of grenades around leads us to EXACTLY this place where everyone is prickly and defensive and nothing improves...
but i suppose that keeps the permanently offended in a job, doesn't it!!!!
In this he has a point.
Farage is similar to BLM. The choice of language and imagery is very, very deliberately provocative. Full of plausible deniability. Both sides of the coin think it's the only way to make themselves heard. There's an argument to suggest they may be right in the short term. The problem is neither side are then willing to dial back the rhetoric when things move in the direction they want. They have to keep pushing hard and, IMO, the ultimate objective (equality) is lost. It then starts to be very counterproductive.
Ian Geary said:
The perception of racism is very much there though.
I think a lot of people have invested a lot of effort into making sure that is so.My personal experience tells me that race relations have deteriorated immensely in the last 20 years or so driven largely by a determination to find racism everywhere and mobilise people along group identity lines. I can only speak as a white guy in a rural area so it doesn't directly affect me much, however what I have directly experienced is the devaluation of the term after years of calling anyone and everyone racist for the slightest deviation or questioning of the official line, and the counter reaction to taking every opportunity to denigrate or even deny the existence of English culture or nationhood.
My instinct is that like most things, especially complex and changing things like culture, ethnicity and inter community relations is best left to develop and evolve on their own without engineering. Instead we seem to have opened up a pandora's box of historical grievances, micro aggressions and identity groups which are ultimately divisive and destructive.
Murph7355 said:
Farage is similar to BLM. The choice of language and imagery is very, very deliberately provocative. Full of plausible deniability. Both sides of the coin think it's the only way to make themselves heard. There's an argument to suggest they may be right in the short term. The problem is neither side are then willing to dial back the rhetoric when things move in the direction they want. They have to keep pushing hard and, IMO, the ultimate objective (equality) is lost. It then starts to be very counterproductive.
Why do you think the objective is equality? In reality, nobody wants equality - they want preferential treatment for themselves and whatever group they advocate for.Greg_D said:
andy_s said:
To make dragons of lizards is the trick of the dragon-slayer in the land of no dragons.
i like this, it sums up the problem quite succinctly. immediately followed by...El stovey said:
Farage on the other hand seems more racist or certainly xenophobic in the way that he uses imagery and speeches to stoke up fear about foreigners arriving.
It’s likely most people have all kinds of different levels of -ism going on to varying extents but nobody thinks we’re racist ourselves though and it’s likely all about where we see ourselves and others on the “racist scale”. Farage probably looks at the BNP or EDL etc and says they’re the racists.
...yet another throwaway accusation of racism with the presumption that it is some sort of inalienable truth.It’s likely most people have all kinds of different levels of -ism going on to varying extents but nobody thinks we’re racist ourselves though and it’s likely all about where we see ourselves and others on the “racist scale”. Farage probably looks at the BNP or EDL etc and says they’re the racists.
Stovey, i'd be obliged if you could link something to substantiate your assumption that farage is a racist!
you may not like his politics, and he may well be a nationalist (not a xenophobe - for god sake, the chap married a german...) but to casually just chuck those sort of grenades around leads us to EXACTLY this place where everyone is prickly and defensive and nothing improves...
but i suppose that keeps the permanently offended in a job, doesn't it!!!!
Thinking someone is racist or any other -ist is always about our opinions of people’s behaviour and the motivations behind it. Whether Farage is racist or not is always going to be an opinion based on our own perception of what he says and does like his posters and what he says about hearing foreign languages etc.
Being married to a German isn’t evidence of him not being racist or xenophobic. He might like Germans but hate the Romanians and poles based on his -isms. Old Hitler liked the Scandinavians and the Brits, he was obviously a bit racist wasn’t he?
I expect there’s plenty of racist blokes married to foreign internet brides, doesn’t mean they can’t also be xenophobic or racist in some way.
You obviously disagree and that’s great, neither of our opinions are facts though.
This is part of the problem with the increasing identity politics and issue associated with thoughts and feelings. They’re just thoughts and feelings not truths or facts.
I see what Farage says and does and think he’s using racist language and imagery to stoke people up and spread fear, classic rabble rousing.
You disagree that’s great,
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 31st March 11:43
It's become such a cause celebre that the whole subject is a minefield of prejudice, somewhat ironically.
It is of the same ilk as the Sarah Everard vigil - shoot and ask questions later. Assume culpability and guilt first and foremost.
Because of that it is destined to become more toxic absent a major change in the debate. I can't see that but hope I'm wrong.
None of which is to say there aren't some genuine issues - all the more tragic that they all get lumped with universal non-issues, blaming all white people for the suffering that every BAME person undergoes.
It is of the same ilk as the Sarah Everard vigil - shoot and ask questions later. Assume culpability and guilt first and foremost.
Because of that it is destined to become more toxic absent a major change in the debate. I can't see that but hope I'm wrong.
None of which is to say there aren't some genuine issues - all the more tragic that they all get lumped with universal non-issues, blaming all white people for the suffering that every BAME person undergoes.
JuanCarlosFandango said:
Ian Geary said:
The perception of racism is very much there though.
My personal experience tells me that race relations have deteriorated immensely in the last 20 years or so driven largely by a determination to find racism everywhere and mobilise people along group identity lines. UK trying hard to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in race relations IMO.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Not sure how you would show a nation to institutionally racist?
We saw things like the Macpherson report which wasn't all that long ago which suggested some issues in some areas.
[b]You also have the Prime Minister using terms such as.[/]
"letterboxes"
"bank robbers"
"picanninies with watermelon smiles"
Can't think why anyone might have the impression there's a problem
I don't think we are as a nation but there's certainly work to do.
So what does that make you now that you have done the same thing? Or is context relevant?We saw things like the Macpherson report which wasn't all that long ago which suggested some issues in some areas.
[b]You also have the Prime Minister using terms such as.[/]
"letterboxes"
"bank robbers"
"picanninies with watermelon smiles"
Can't think why anyone might have the impression there's a problem
I don't think we are as a nation but there's certainly work to do.
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