Does it matter if the high street dies?
Discussion
JagLover said:
Byker28i said:
Swindon has screwed up it's town center, not least by making it difficult to drive into and park, and the constant development of out of town centers. The two new carparks in the center are blighted by the route you have to drive to get to them if coming in around the ring road, effectively looping around the Halfrauds roundabout and they demolished the bus center carpark. T
hen by allowing the outlet center to be built close to it taking away any real trade. The larger shops started pulling out as people didn't go in. Then as it's owned by a private development company, it's had little investment. I can't honestly think of any shops I need to go into there for, not even for christmas shopping.
It was suggested they ran a free land train between the outlet and the town center, using the old workers tunnel, but they turned this down. Parents would have used it for the ride just as entertainment for the kids, but it would have taken people into the center.
There are three roads out of West Swindon which all join the same road (especially as one has been blocked for non existant road works now for almost two years). Add to that the rat run through from North Swindon developments and it makes the traffic a real problem a lot of the time. Then there's the M4/Whichelstowe expansion to add to it thats shortly going to expand rapidly
The best thing about Swindon now is it's location and the ability to get out of it quickly to other places
Well that and you can still buy a decent house in a decent area without selling a kidney. hen by allowing the outlet center to be built close to it taking away any real trade. The larger shops started pulling out as people didn't go in. Then as it's owned by a private development company, it's had little investment. I can't honestly think of any shops I need to go into there for, not even for christmas shopping.
It was suggested they ran a free land train between the outlet and the town center, using the old workers tunnel, but they turned this down. Parents would have used it for the ride just as entertainment for the kids, but it would have taken people into the center.
There are three roads out of West Swindon which all join the same road (especially as one has been blocked for non existant road works now for almost two years). Add to that the rat run through from North Swindon developments and it makes the traffic a real problem a lot of the time. Then there's the M4/Whichelstowe expansion to add to it thats shortly going to expand rapidly
The best thing about Swindon now is it's location and the ability to get out of it quickly to other places
Re the town centre it doesn't really bother me as I don't often need to visit. If there were things there to visit and I could drive in easily and park up then that might be a slightly different story of course.
the outlet was ok back then, but it looks like they have improved it with more eating places now (Wagamama) for instance. It wasn't on par with it's sister site at Cheshire Oaks though.
JagLover said:
Glade said:
I used to live in priory Vale and it was a sea of persimmon etc... the provision at my end was a single tescoexpress at the bottom of a block of flats nothing else for a considerable distance.
I know the sort of little centre you mean, used to go to the jovial monk pub quiz and it's like that round there... but it's not the same as the little highstreets in North Leeds like Chapel Allerton or Meanwood, Horsforth etc where there is a lot more going on and not really local.
I think the older areas will revive easier due to the planning g of the period being more adaptable.
The Jovial Monk is the pub I was talking about in the same little row of shops I know the sort of little centre you mean, used to go to the jovial monk pub quiz and it's like that round there... but it's not the same as the little highstreets in North Leeds like Chapel Allerton or Meanwood, Horsforth etc where there is a lot more going on and not really local.
I think the older areas will revive easier due to the planning g of the period being more adaptable.
It does me. I would like a proper bakers nearby (not a Greggs) but other than that cant grumble about local shops.
I have always been amused by local authorities who over the years have made it as difficult, time consuming, expensive, and as inconvenient, and sometimes as threatening as possible, for people who live outside a town, to get into a town and shop there, who then somehow feign surprise that their high street is dying.
The same applies to pavement parking. Local authorities allow developments which have little enough parking for the residents, let alone parking areas for those who will inevitably want to visit the people, living in those houses (not forgetting emergency vehicles such as fire engines, and ambulances, and of course delivery vehicles of all kinds, which again inevitably will require access to those dwellings). all whilst making the (new) roads in these developments so narrow, that if people park in the roads, there is not the space for anything much larger than a car to get through.
These estates should have been designed for reality, not for what some idealistic designer feels they ought to have.
The same applies to pavement parking. Local authorities allow developments which have little enough parking for the residents, let alone parking areas for those who will inevitably want to visit the people, living in those houses (not forgetting emergency vehicles such as fire engines, and ambulances, and of course delivery vehicles of all kinds, which again inevitably will require access to those dwellings). all whilst making the (new) roads in these developments so narrow, that if people park in the roads, there is not the space for anything much larger than a car to get through.
These estates should have been designed for reality, not for what some idealistic designer feels they ought to have.
Edited by Pan Pan Pan on Thursday 15th April 10:24
The councils are the problem with the high street, putting rates up to ridiculous levels as well as landlords upping rent. Very short sighted and now there are thousands of outlets sat empty with nobody returning any time soon! The councils need to offer great incentives to new and existing retailers to pull people back to the high street but with an online generation of kids now in their twenties, I don't see it making much difference.
Office space will be next as more and more people work from home.
Office space will be next as more and more people work from home.
Gecko1978 said:
Sway said:
One thing that is surprising me is quite how frequently people seem to buy a 'flat screen TV' (do we still need that qualifier? Haven't seen a crt TV for nearly two decades!)...
I feel like I must be depriving my family of the opportunity to add another TV to their wall on a weekly basis.
I think its just a standard example of where the car is better. But your right I don't by a tv often. I do buy 24 pack of coke zero, large bags of rice, pasta, 4ltr bottles of milk, washing powder, dog food etc all quite bulky items that are easy to wheel in a trolly to the car rather than lug up the hill home.I feel like I must be depriving my family of the opportunity to add another TV to their wall on a weekly basis.
For us, the 'bulk commodity' stuff we get delivered once a month. Last thing I want to be doing is pissing about grabbing bog roll.
What that does, is mean our 'weekly-ish' necessary shops are pleasant experiences. Pop to the butcher/Farm shop for fresh meat and veg (often locally produced). Oh, and the incredible cheese counter.
Mooch around a few 'lifestyle/hobby' shops, pick up a few bits.
Drop into a cafe for coffee and cake, or perhaps a panini (with cake, obvs.).
Oh, and often stop off at the local on the way back for a cheeky half and a bag of salt n vinegar (or their crack laced chilli loaded fries).
All whilst racking up the steps, and getting fresh air and interaction with the wider community.
GTO-3R said:
The councils are the problem with the high street, putting rates up to ridiculous levels as well as landlords upping rent. Very short sighted and now there are thousands of outlets sat empty with nobody returning any time soon! The councils need to offer great incentives to new and existing retailers to pull people back to the high street but with an online generation of kids now in their twenties, I don't see it making much difference.
Office space will be next as more and more people work from home.
I would leave rent to the market (mostly) as I believe it will adjust itself. If all the shops go bust then rents for retail will have to fall, better less than nothing. I also don't see the sense of an online sales tax. Out of town shopping centres played their part in killing the high street long before Amazon came along. I do think something has to be done about rates though and personally I would support a higher rate of VAT as long as the net tax take was zero. This at least would keep the level playing field for all retailers.Office space will be next as more and more people work from home.
Gecko1978 said:
What do councils provide that we need (social housing, care in the community, parks and recreation etc). Once the needs are paid for what is left?
Pretty short on the services local authorities provide there . Im no fan of mine but like most government services there is only one place the funding comes from either directly or indirectlyFor me as a consumer I think it boils down to a number of factors. Namely, how much do I value my time, what is it that I'm looking to buy/browse, and will I enjoy going there?
On the time front, I simply don't want to spend the little free time that I have, driving through busy traffic to pay inflated car park charges and having to endure the throngs of people, most who now walk around with their heads down in a phone not looking where they are going. In the summer it can be too hot, in the winter hot/cold as you traipse in and out of heated shops so I've got to a point where I'm simply not going to go. I don't enjoy browsing or the hustle and bustle - I'd rather be out with the wife walking the dog or doing a hobby I enjoy.
For most things the convenience of the internet simply cannot be beaten. Even clothes, which I used to insist on trying on in the shop, can be bought from Next online and sent back if they don't fit; the increased price doesn't bother me. I was going to say that I would want to go into town to look at a particular item, but nothing springs to mind when I come to think of it. If I want plants, garden machinery, DIY kit, or to look at a serious purchase such as a motorbike I will travel in, but then I guess that garden centres/screwfix, etc. are not really 'high street'.
On the enjoyment factor, the 'high street' does have a pull factor for me if there is something special about the experience. For example Bath, which is about 30 mins away, has history, architecture and nice walks. My local town centre (Wilts market town) has independent shops, a bakery, tea room, etc. so I'm happy to travel in for a coffee and cake and my wife can go to the independent health food shop. It helps that we live in a nice area so a quick walk around the town can be followed up with a walk with the dog.
On the time front, I simply don't want to spend the little free time that I have, driving through busy traffic to pay inflated car park charges and having to endure the throngs of people, most who now walk around with their heads down in a phone not looking where they are going. In the summer it can be too hot, in the winter hot/cold as you traipse in and out of heated shops so I've got to a point where I'm simply not going to go. I don't enjoy browsing or the hustle and bustle - I'd rather be out with the wife walking the dog or doing a hobby I enjoy.
For most things the convenience of the internet simply cannot be beaten. Even clothes, which I used to insist on trying on in the shop, can be bought from Next online and sent back if they don't fit; the increased price doesn't bother me. I was going to say that I would want to go into town to look at a particular item, but nothing springs to mind when I come to think of it. If I want plants, garden machinery, DIY kit, or to look at a serious purchase such as a motorbike I will travel in, but then I guess that garden centres/screwfix, etc. are not really 'high street'.
On the enjoyment factor, the 'high street' does have a pull factor for me if there is something special about the experience. For example Bath, which is about 30 mins away, has history, architecture and nice walks. My local town centre (Wilts market town) has independent shops, a bakery, tea room, etc. so I'm happy to travel in for a coffee and cake and my wife can go to the independent health food shop. It helps that we live in a nice area so a quick walk around the town can be followed up with a walk with the dog.
GTO-3R said:
The councils are the problem with the high street, putting rates up to ridiculous levels as well as landlords upping rent. Very short sighted and now there are thousands of outlets sat empty with nobody returning any time soon! The councils need to offer great incentives to new and existing retailers to pull people back to the high street but with an online generation of kids now in their twenties, I don't see it making much difference.
Office space will be next as more and more people work from home.
They also need to make it cheaper, more convenient, and more welcoming for people from outside a town to get in there, and do their shopping etc. But they have been doing the exact opposite for decades. yet act surprised when high street businesses have been going to the wall in droves. Office space will be next as more and more people work from home.
Without the customers ability to get into a high street. those businesses will be going virtually no where, no matter how low the rates are.
ben_h100 said:
For me as a consumer I think it boils down to a number of factors. Namely, how much do I value my time, what is it that I'm looking to buy/browse, and will I enjoy going there?
On the time front, I simply don't want to spend the little free time that I have, driving through busy traffic to pay inflated car park charges and having to endure the throngs of people, most who now walk around with their heads down in a phone not looking where they are going. In the summer it can be too hot, in the winter hot/cold as you traipse in and out of heated shops so I've got to a point where I'm simply not going to go. I don't enjoy browsing or the hustle and bustle - I'd rather be out with the wife walking the dog or doing a hobby I enjoy.
For most things the convenience of the internet simply cannot be beaten. Even clothes, which I used to insist on trying on in the shop, can be bought from Next online and sent back if they don't fit; the increased price doesn't bother me. I was going to say that I would want to go into town to look at a particular item, but nothing springs to mind when I come to think of it. If I want plants, garden machinery, DIY kit, or to look at a serious purchase such as a motorbike I will travel in, but then I guess that garden centres/screwfix, etc. are not really 'high street'.
On the enjoyment factor, the 'high street' does have a pull factor for me if there is something special about the experience. For example Bath, which is about 30 mins away, has history, architecture and nice walks. My local town centre (Wilts market town) has independent shops, a bakery, tea room, etc. so I'm happy to travel in for a coffee and cake and my wife can go to the independent health food shop. It helps that we live in a nice area so a quick walk around the town can be followed up with a walk with the dog.
Personally I like to look, explore the purchases that are personal like food, clothes. Other items then the convenience of shopping online is fine, or as you say - a mix like click and collect at Screwfix On the time front, I simply don't want to spend the little free time that I have, driving through busy traffic to pay inflated car park charges and having to endure the throngs of people, most who now walk around with their heads down in a phone not looking where they are going. In the summer it can be too hot, in the winter hot/cold as you traipse in and out of heated shops so I've got to a point where I'm simply not going to go. I don't enjoy browsing or the hustle and bustle - I'd rather be out with the wife walking the dog or doing a hobby I enjoy.
For most things the convenience of the internet simply cannot be beaten. Even clothes, which I used to insist on trying on in the shop, can be bought from Next online and sent back if they don't fit; the increased price doesn't bother me. I was going to say that I would want to go into town to look at a particular item, but nothing springs to mind when I come to think of it. If I want plants, garden machinery, DIY kit, or to look at a serious purchase such as a motorbike I will travel in, but then I guess that garden centres/screwfix, etc. are not really 'high street'.
On the enjoyment factor, the 'high street' does have a pull factor for me if there is something special about the experience. For example Bath, which is about 30 mins away, has history, architecture and nice walks. My local town centre (Wilts market town) has independent shops, a bakery, tea room, etc. so I'm happy to travel in for a coffee and cake and my wife can go to the independent health food shop. It helps that we live in a nice area so a quick walk around the town can be followed up with a walk with the dog.
I think theres a difference between what the small high street needs to offer and what a town center has. Traditionally large town centers had the larger shops, department stores, but with these struggling, or unwilling to pay the business rates, they've moved out, creating voids which are difficult to fill.
All over has also been exagerated by the reduction in banks. We've three empty premises that were banks, Santander, Barclays and HSBC, all gone in the last 2 years, in a small high street.
But this should be where the smaller, niche shops should be allowed and encouraged to step in. Make it a destination to encourage people into the area, somewhere people want to go to browse (difficult in current times) That includes places to stop and rest, not just coffee shops, but green areas perhaps.
Sway said:
Chichester suspended all parking costs during the initial lockdowns.
To be fair though, it's pretty good with parking - lots of options, and varying in price based on convenience/size of car park, but none what I'd consider off puttingly expensive.
In the last year, along the coast East Sussex CC more than doubled the on street town centre charges. In Eastbourne at least so probs other towns as well.To be fair though, it's pretty good with parking - lots of options, and varying in price based on convenience/size of car park, but none what I'd consider off puttingly expensive.
Coincidentally I think we house a good %age of the remaining elderly non internet shoppers. Milking 'em while they can I guess.
Byker28i said:
Johnnytheboy said:
There was a town in Wales that did that inadvertently and it was chaos. 
My approach would be have pay parking for long stays but lots of enforced 30 minute free parking.
That is what would get people like me off shopping online.
Cardigan? During the first lockdown reopening which coincided with the tourist season, they shut the high street and diverted all the traffic through the narrow streets instead, which passed by two main car parks. They did this so that they could use th ehigh street for social distancing, allowed the few cafes to put seating outside.My approach would be have pay parking for long stays but lots of enforced 30 minute free parking.
That is what would get people like me off shopping online.
Instead of occasional traffic these tiny roads were really busy, so obviously the residents weren't happy Then they kept it like that and the local shop owners all said it ruined trade as people stayed away.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/card...
https://www.tivysideadvertiser.co.uk/news/18915260...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-13712977
MC Bodge said:
Good point about parking slightly further away.
The point was made (and confirmed by various others) earlier that often even the people who do exercise or take part in physical activity seem to compartmentalise it, rather than just incorporate activity into daily life.
People who drive to the gym to run or walk(!) on a treadmill, use a cross trainer or static bike (unless they have a very specific training need) epitomise this approach.
As above, British people are, on the whole, not in good physical (and often not good mental) condition (and no, looking like Mens Health models isn't required), and some of attitudes in this thread partly explain why.
The point was made (and confirmed by various others) earlier that often even the people who do exercise or take part in physical activity seem to compartmentalise it, rather than just incorporate activity into daily life.
People who drive to the gym to run or walk(!) on a treadmill, use a cross trainer or static bike (unless they have a very specific training need) epitomise this approach.
As above, British people are, on the whole, not in good physical (and often not good mental) condition (and no, looking like Mens Health models isn't required), and some of attitudes in this thread partly explain why.
Sway said:
Chichester suspended all parking costs during the initial lockdowns.
To be fair though, it's pretty good with parking - lots of options, and varying in price based on convenience/size of car park, but none what I'd consider off puttingly expensive.
Chichester is a good example of somewhere where it is easy to park for free if you go a little further out. I often used to park on the end of West Street for example. Or you can park around the Four Chestnuts for free as well. It's not far in to town from there. Of course a lot of people (me included) used to park in Chi Gate and walk into town.To be fair though, it's pretty good with parking - lots of options, and varying in price based on convenience/size of car park, but none what I'd consider off puttingly expensive.
In cities walking is far more common. I think there is something about the mentality of travelling from 'here' to 'there' which puts people off in smaller towns (and cities). I bet the same people who wouldn't dream of walking a couple of miles where they live don't think anything of it when they visit a city, because as far as they are concerned they are already 'there'.
My town centre is about a three and half mile walk. which is fine, especially as the car parks (pre lock down) were usually full to bursting, and frustratingly difficult to get into.
Not forgetting eye wateringly expensive. and thanks to permanent road closures, and one way systems, not particularly convenient either.
But there will come a time when I am not able to walk that distance, especially on the way out, when I might be loaded down with shopping. Some places also impose `congestion' charge as a further disincentive to go there.
None of the above make the town centre an appealing place to shop, and a bit too much of a faff to go there just for socializing either.
If the authorities continue to make town centres difficult, time consuming, inconvenient, and expensive to access, they can hardy be surprised when they find that quite a few people just don't want to go there any more. hence the impending death of the high street.
Not forgetting eye wateringly expensive. and thanks to permanent road closures, and one way systems, not particularly convenient either.
But there will come a time when I am not able to walk that distance, especially on the way out, when I might be loaded down with shopping. Some places also impose `congestion' charge as a further disincentive to go there.
None of the above make the town centre an appealing place to shop, and a bit too much of a faff to go there just for socializing either.
If the authorities continue to make town centres difficult, time consuming, inconvenient, and expensive to access, they can hardy be surprised when they find that quite a few people just don't want to go there any more. hence the impending death of the high street.
I have avoided High Streets for years.
Why pay to park some distance from where you want to go when an "out of town" retail site offers free parking nearer to the shops?
I wouldn't have wanted to try to get my current TV from a high street store to a multi-storey car park!
On the few occasions I felt the need to visit a high street I would go on a Sunday then I could park on a single yellow line, but with all the recent retail closures there isn't much to go to anyway unless you are addicted to coffee shops and fast food.
For context my nearest towns are Camberley and Bracknell - if I lived somewhere like Wiltshire or Dorset I might have a different view.
Why pay to park some distance from where you want to go when an "out of town" retail site offers free parking nearer to the shops?
I wouldn't have wanted to try to get my current TV from a high street store to a multi-storey car park!
On the few occasions I felt the need to visit a high street I would go on a Sunday then I could park on a single yellow line, but with all the recent retail closures there isn't much to go to anyway unless you are addicted to coffee shops and fast food.
For context my nearest towns are Camberley and Bracknell - if I lived somewhere like Wiltshire or Dorset I might have a different view.
GroundEffect said:
What, you mean, the fact I can spend as little as 30 seconds searching for the item I want/need on Amazon or a bunch of other sites, pay for it and have it sent directly to me - usually free of charge - is not a big draw for a lot of people?
Having to drive/walk/public transport to the centre of town to go find what I want and deal with other people and parking makes internet win almost every time. Only time it doesn't is when I need something that day, which is rarely.
And even that last part isn't always true as Amazon do same-day delivery for some items.
I ignored the fact online is cheaper because I know that is tied to business rates but if we assume that online was slightly more expensive by the time all else is equal, I would still do the online.
So how do you try on clothes, shoes or hats and gloves? How do you feel the fabric through a picture on the Internet? How do you know if the size you think you are really suits you? How do you find the best pair of trousers that compliments your shape and give enough room around the arse? I suppose you could order 10 pairs and try them all on and then have just as much hassle packing them all up and posting them back. Maybe none of them are as you thought and you return all of them. Seems like a boring and painfully slow process to buy stuff. The internet can’t do everything you know. It gives the illusion of choice and serves to drive down prices as some operators just lose money as they all try and out compete one another. It’s definitely led to the amateur retailer who goes out of business and drags the price of everything down so it sets a low bench mark for retail prices. Nowadays peop,e think they are being ripped off if they SRP. Having to drive/walk/public transport to the centre of town to go find what I want and deal with other people and parking makes internet win almost every time. Only time it doesn't is when I need something that day, which is rarely.
And even that last part isn't always true as Amazon do same-day delivery for some items.
I ignored the fact online is cheaper because I know that is tied to business rates but if we assume that online was slightly more expensive by the time all else is equal, I would still do the online.
Mr Tidy said:
I have avoided High Streets for years.
Why pay to park some distance from where you want to go when an "out of town" retail site offers free parking nearer to the shops?
I wouldn't have wanted to try to get my current TV from a high street store to a multi-storey car park!
On the few occasions I felt the need to visit a high street I would go on a Sunday then I could park on a single yellow line, but with all the recent retail closures there isn't much to go to anyway unless you are addicted to coffee shops and fast food.
For context my nearest towns are Camberley and Bracknell - if I lived somewhere like Wiltshire or Dorset I might have a different view.
Not been to Camberley but from memory, Bracknell town isn't that nice is it? Isn't Reading the main destination in those parts with its big shopping centre?Why pay to park some distance from where you want to go when an "out of town" retail site offers free parking nearer to the shops?
I wouldn't have wanted to try to get my current TV from a high street store to a multi-storey car park!
On the few occasions I felt the need to visit a high street I would go on a Sunday then I could park on a single yellow line, but with all the recent retail closures there isn't much to go to anyway unless you are addicted to coffee shops and fast food.
For context my nearest towns are Camberley and Bracknell - if I lived somewhere like Wiltshire or Dorset I might have a different view.
Crippo said:
So how do you try on clothes, shoes or hats and gloves? How do you feel the fabric through a picture on the Internet? How do you know if the size you think you are really suits you? How do you find the best pair of trousers that compliments your shape and give enough room around the arse? I suppose you could order 10 pairs and try them all on and then have just as much hassle packing them all up and posting them back. Maybe none of them are as you thought and you return all of them. Seems like a boring and painfully slow process to buy stuff. The internet can’t do everything you know. It gives the illusion of choice and serves to drive down prices as some operators just lose money as they all try and out compete one another. It’s definitely led to the amateur retailer who goes out of business and drags the price of everything down so it sets a low bench mark for retail prices. Nowadays peop,e think they are being ripped off if they SRP.
Amazon Wardrobe is a reasonable model. Order what you want (think max 6 items at a time), delivered next day, try it all on within seven days, keep what you want. Shove what you don't want back in the bag and stick on the label. Drop into the local co-op which is 200m away.zbc said:
GTO-3R said:
The councils are the problem with the high street, putting rates up to ridiculous levels as well as landlords upping rent. Very short sighted and now there are thousands of outlets sat empty with nobody returning any time soon! The councils need to offer great incentives to new and existing retailers to pull people back to the high street but with an online generation of kids now in their twenties, I don't see it making much difference.
Office space will be next as more and more people work from home.
I would leave rent to the market (mostly) as I believe it will adjust itself. If all the shops go bust then rents for retail will have to fall, better less than nothing. I also don't see the sense of an online sales tax. Out of town shopping centres played their part in killing the high street long before Amazon came along. I do think something has to be done about rates though and personally I would support a higher rate of VAT as long as the net tax take was zero. This at least would keep the level playing field for all retailers.Office space will be next as more and more people work from home.
k uses that. Another example: I've something I need to buy in a chain shop. I travel a fair bit so I can choose a location.
There's one in Bristol where I am today... but it's in the city centre mall.
There's one in Bournemouth where I am tomorrow.... it's in a small suburban retail park.
No prizes for guessing.
There's one in Bristol where I am today... but it's in the city centre mall.
There's one in Bournemouth where I am tomorrow.... it's in a small suburban retail park.
No prizes for guessing.
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