Tiananmen Square - what do the Chinese think?
Discussion
I was chatting to a Chinese friend recently. He isn’t living in China at the moment but parents and family do. I asked him about what people in China think of the government, treatment of Hong Kong and Tiananmen Square (recent anniversary).
He said - and course this is just his view - that the older generation like his parents are more hostile towards the government and lack of democracy in China but the younger generation (he is late twenties), who were not alive, are much less bothered. Apparently they are quite patriotic and proud of China’s economic development and achievements in the past few decades.
Anyone on here live or have recently lived in China to give their impressions?
He said - and course this is just his view - that the older generation like his parents are more hostile towards the government and lack of democracy in China but the younger generation (he is late twenties), who were not alive, are much less bothered. Apparently they are quite patriotic and proud of China’s economic development and achievements in the past few decades.
Anyone on here live or have recently lived in China to give their impressions?
Mhy daughter did journalism at uni and did an exchange with a Chinese lad. He stayed with us for a few days.
He knew very little of tiananmen square, believing it to be a peaceful protest. His grasp of world politics was very flaky.
One of the problems with China is that many of the population have seen their standard of living rise considerably, and therefore have no reason to question the party. The party has done done good by them so they won't upset the apple cart.
He knew very little of tiananmen square, believing it to be a peaceful protest. His grasp of world politics was very flaky.
One of the problems with China is that many of the population have seen their standard of living rise considerably, and therefore have no reason to question the party. The party has done done good by them so they won't upset the apple cart.
Not-The-Messiah said:
It goes to show with the modern propaganda machine the population is easily controlled. Just look at Covid.
But mainly the population is basically like a 5 year old kid. Give it a shiny new iPad every now and then and make sure they are fed and they will keep quiet.
But when everyone has the trinkets they'll look up and see what else they're missing. Hopefully they'll want democracy eventually. The Party will play a long drip feed of improvements though. But mainly the population is basically like a 5 year old kid. Give it a shiny new iPad every now and then and make sure they are fed and they will keep quiet.
Mabbs9 said:
Not-The-Messiah said:
It goes to show with the modern propaganda machine the population is easily controlled. Just look at Covid.
But mainly the population is basically like a 5 year old kid. Give it a shiny new iPad every now and then and make sure they are fed and they will keep quiet.
But when everyone has the trinkets they'll look up and see what else they're missing. Hopefully they'll want democracy eventually. The Party will play a long drip feed of improvements though. But mainly the population is basically like a 5 year old kid. Give it a shiny new iPad every now and then and make sure they are fed and they will keep quiet.
Dictatorships are a funny thing not always all bad in the same way democracy is not always all good
About 15 years ago, I was sat in a put with a large group of friends after training in sports.
One of the guys there had his new Chinese girlfriend with him. Both of them were studying at Oxford, and her father was well connected (hence the money and ability to get into Oxford). I think he was a general in the PLA or some such as well as being a party member..
Anyway, the conversation got on to Tiananmen Square and the massacre...the Chinese girl started crying, not because she was sad about the event, but because you’re just not allowed to talk about it.
She’s sat in a pub thousands of miles from home, no other Chinese were in the building and her father was well connected in the military and the party...and she was worried that some one would find out she was talking about Tiananmen Square! What hope does the current generation have of ever knowing the truth?
This was years before I found out about Confucius institutes and the control of overseas Chinese. If.
One of the guys there had his new Chinese girlfriend with him. Both of them were studying at Oxford, and her father was well connected (hence the money and ability to get into Oxford). I think he was a general in the PLA or some such as well as being a party member..
Anyway, the conversation got on to Tiananmen Square and the massacre...the Chinese girl started crying, not because she was sad about the event, but because you’re just not allowed to talk about it.
She’s sat in a pub thousands of miles from home, no other Chinese were in the building and her father was well connected in the military and the party...and she was worried that some one would find out she was talking about Tiananmen Square! What hope does the current generation have of ever knowing the truth?
This was years before I found out about Confucius institutes and the control of overseas Chinese. If.
bristolracer said:
Mhy daughter did journalism at uni and did an exchange with a Chinese lad. He stayed with us for a few days.
He knew very little of tiananmen square, believing it to be a peaceful protest. His grasp of world politics was very flaky.
One of the problems with China is that many of the population have seen their standard of living rise considerably, and therefore have no reason to question the party. The party has done done good by them so they won't upset the apple cart.
This is an interesting perspective. If the country is doing well, personal living standards are improving and at a personal level all is positive its totally understandable that the average Chinese might no seek to question how or the impacts. Were we any different when we were developing as a nation by exploiting different bits of the world, or even as recently as the '80's when certain parts of the economy was in boom time, money was easy to make and everything looked rosy. Those who were benefitting here didn't choose to take too hard a look at how or why, where others might be suffering to deliver it or any long term consequences. He knew very little of tiananmen square, believing it to be a peaceful protest. His grasp of world politics was very flaky.
One of the problems with China is that many of the population have seen their standard of living rise considerably, and therefore have no reason to question the party. The party has done done good by them so they won't upset the apple cart.
Add in a relatively controlling party state and I can fully understand why the average younger Chinese might see only the upsides and not get much of a second throught to the downsides. In many many years to come, perhaps as we have come to question where the compromises were in history and reflect on our actions, maybe the Chinese will also?
I have a family member married to a Chinese girl and it is an interesting subject matter.
Over the past few decades the communists have been pushing hard for the population to become hard line nationalists. As technology and a whiff of capitalism entered their economy (even though it is still state controlled), there was the thinking that people would become less reliant on the state as personal wealth brought new forms of freedom. So the communists started new campaigns to ensure the mind set was always that the individual is China and China is the individual. (ie. in other words the person is always a slave to the state - the communist ideology from the viewpoint of the top down)
So the young in China these days are very nationalistic and think that if China is independent, strong and pushes back against western evils then their lives will be more prosperous and secure.
The older generations come from a very different view point. Their lives were full of state control, poverty and hardship during the 60's, 70's and 80's. They had family members grass them up if there was the slightest hint of any anti-government sentiments. Their generation was purely there to exist as a means for the state to use their labour.
As a result of the "great leap backwards", the older generations are very paranoid and is why if you were to visit China as a westerner, you may find a lot of them will watch you to see if you are up to something that you shouldn't be doing. Where as the young, unless employed by the state for monitoring purposes, will give you little attention on such matters.
When it comes to Tiananmen Square, the details of what happened were never published by the communists. The story was changed and people are advised not to approach the subject. This applies to both old and young in China.
The only way that people in China get details of what happened is via external sources by which the communists dismiss outright as a campaign to hurt China. (If you hurt China then you also hurt the individual as the mindset is indoctrinated).
Hence total internet censorship.
As an interesting side note, any employees of the government have very strict conditions on applying for visas to travel to other countries. It is said this is the case due to the communist's constant worry that if state employees gain the truth about who they are working for that they could face enemies from within - which is a historical pastime for totalitarian regimes.
Over the past few decades the communists have been pushing hard for the population to become hard line nationalists. As technology and a whiff of capitalism entered their economy (even though it is still state controlled), there was the thinking that people would become less reliant on the state as personal wealth brought new forms of freedom. So the communists started new campaigns to ensure the mind set was always that the individual is China and China is the individual. (ie. in other words the person is always a slave to the state - the communist ideology from the viewpoint of the top down)
So the young in China these days are very nationalistic and think that if China is independent, strong and pushes back against western evils then their lives will be more prosperous and secure.
The older generations come from a very different view point. Their lives were full of state control, poverty and hardship during the 60's, 70's and 80's. They had family members grass them up if there was the slightest hint of any anti-government sentiments. Their generation was purely there to exist as a means for the state to use their labour.
As a result of the "great leap backwards", the older generations are very paranoid and is why if you were to visit China as a westerner, you may find a lot of them will watch you to see if you are up to something that you shouldn't be doing. Where as the young, unless employed by the state for monitoring purposes, will give you little attention on such matters.
When it comes to Tiananmen Square, the details of what happened were never published by the communists. The story was changed and people are advised not to approach the subject. This applies to both old and young in China.
The only way that people in China get details of what happened is via external sources by which the communists dismiss outright as a campaign to hurt China. (If you hurt China then you also hurt the individual as the mindset is indoctrinated).
Hence total internet censorship.
As an interesting side note, any employees of the government have very strict conditions on applying for visas to travel to other countries. It is said this is the case due to the communist's constant worry that if state employees gain the truth about who they are working for that they could face enemies from within - which is a historical pastime for totalitarian regimes.
Tiananmen is heavily censored in China and their versions of google and the internet will produce no results of the massacre and speaking openly about it will merely put you ‘on the list’.
If no one talks about it then the government can easily manipulate the message or simply deny its existence entirely so the younger population are largely ignorant of the event much like what’s happening with the Uighurs at present.
Also, China has raced ahead economically over the last few decades and living conditions for the many have improved compared to Mao’s time where the struggle was very real. If you’re feeling richer and benefit from the economic revolution then you’re less likely to rise up and demand change and the Chinese government also manipulate your place in society with things like their ‘social scoring’ where, if you’re a good citizen, you can access stuff like foreign travel, better education and whatnot.
Decades of ‘education’ and propaganda have largely produced a compliant population who think they have freedom but have anything but and its interesting that there is no real threat to the status quo from within or any vocal opposition movement to threaten the government. They’re certainly adept at keeping a lid on things.
If no one talks about it then the government can easily manipulate the message or simply deny its existence entirely so the younger population are largely ignorant of the event much like what’s happening with the Uighurs at present.
Also, China has raced ahead economically over the last few decades and living conditions for the many have improved compared to Mao’s time where the struggle was very real. If you’re feeling richer and benefit from the economic revolution then you’re less likely to rise up and demand change and the Chinese government also manipulate your place in society with things like their ‘social scoring’ where, if you’re a good citizen, you can access stuff like foreign travel, better education and whatnot.
Decades of ‘education’ and propaganda have largely produced a compliant population who think they have freedom but have anything but and its interesting that there is no real threat to the status quo from within or any vocal opposition movement to threaten the government. They’re certainly adept at keeping a lid on things.
GroundZero said:
I have a family member married to a Chinese girl and it is an interesting subject matter.
Over the past few decades the communists have been pushing hard for the population to become hard line nationalists. As technology and a whiff of capitalism entered their economy (even though it is still state controlled), there was the thinking that people would become less reliant on the state as personal wealth brought new forms of freedom. So the communists started new campaigns to ensure the mind set was always that the individual is China and China is the individual. (ie. in other words the person is always a slave to the state - the communist ideology from the viewpoint of the top down)
So the young in China these days are very nationalistic and think that if China is independent, strong and pushes back against western evils then their lives will be more prosperous and secure.
The older generations come from a very different view point. Their lives were full of state control, poverty and hardship during the 60's, 70's and 80's. They had family members grass them up if there was the slightest hint of any anti-government sentiments. Their generation was purely there to exist as a means for the state to use their labour.
As a result of the "great leap backwards", the older generations are very paranoid and is why if you were to visit China as a westerner, you may find a lot of them will watch you to see if you are up to something that you shouldn't be doing. Where as the young, unless employed by the state for monitoring purposes, will give you little attention on such matters.
When it comes to Tiananmen Square, the details of what happened were never published by the communists. The story was changed and people are advised not to approach the subject. This applies to both old and young in China.
The only way that people in China get details of what happened is via external sources by which the communists dismiss outright as a campaign to hurt China. (If you hurt China then you also hurt the individual as the mindset is indoctrinated).
Hence total internet censorship.
As an interesting side note, any employees of the government have very strict conditions on applying for visas to travel to other countries. It is said this is the case due to the communist's constant worry that if state employees gain the truth about who they are working for that they could face enemies from within - which is a historical pastime for totalitarian regimes.
Very interesting post.Over the past few decades the communists have been pushing hard for the population to become hard line nationalists. As technology and a whiff of capitalism entered their economy (even though it is still state controlled), there was the thinking that people would become less reliant on the state as personal wealth brought new forms of freedom. So the communists started new campaigns to ensure the mind set was always that the individual is China and China is the individual. (ie. in other words the person is always a slave to the state - the communist ideology from the viewpoint of the top down)
So the young in China these days are very nationalistic and think that if China is independent, strong and pushes back against western evils then their lives will be more prosperous and secure.
The older generations come from a very different view point. Their lives were full of state control, poverty and hardship during the 60's, 70's and 80's. They had family members grass them up if there was the slightest hint of any anti-government sentiments. Their generation was purely there to exist as a means for the state to use their labour.
As a result of the "great leap backwards", the older generations are very paranoid and is why if you were to visit China as a westerner, you may find a lot of them will watch you to see if you are up to something that you shouldn't be doing. Where as the young, unless employed by the state for monitoring purposes, will give you little attention on such matters.
When it comes to Tiananmen Square, the details of what happened were never published by the communists. The story was changed and people are advised not to approach the subject. This applies to both old and young in China.
The only way that people in China get details of what happened is via external sources by which the communists dismiss outright as a campaign to hurt China. (If you hurt China then you also hurt the individual as the mindset is indoctrinated).
Hence total internet censorship.
As an interesting side note, any employees of the government have very strict conditions on applying for visas to travel to other countries. It is said this is the case due to the communist's constant worry that if state employees gain the truth about who they are working for that they could face enemies from within - which is a historical pastime for totalitarian regimes.
I did part of my MBA in China at Peking University and have spent time working with Chinese companies forging partnerships with western companies. If you ever mention the protest they will call it “the incident” and then change the subject no matter how old the person is who speaks to you. I agree with the poster above that says there is a different attitude for the older people and the youngsters. There has been a lot of work done to make people feel patriotic and that China is right, in a much better and managed way than North Korea. There is a fascination with western people and western culture though. What is really strange is the phenomenon that their own citizens are visiting Beijing and Shanghai etc now from the far flung edges of China and the way they react to a westerner is odd at first as they want to take selfie’s with you and stuff particularly if you’re spotted in a tourist spot like the square.
Ayahuasca said:
Isn’t it a basic tenet of politics that the masses are not interested in revolution when they are kept fed and entertained?
Ancient Rome - bread and circuses
China - higher living standard and tic toc
Yup, helped by absolute control of every aspect of peoples lives. Citizenship scores etc. Ancient Rome - bread and circuses
China - higher living standard and tic toc
I work directly with a lot of chinese colleagues, who are normally based in China, but also often travel to Europe, so should be able to access information whilst here, even if censored in China.
I never ask. It would be putting them in an awkward position. They might not give a s
t.
Imagine a chinese asking an english about the british army shooting unarmed protesters in the back on Bloody Sunday for example?
Not only do most british not give two sts, they actively believe the killers should not face prosecution.
I doubt it's much different throughout the world if you are not directly involved.
I never ask. It would be putting them in an awkward position. They might not give a s
t.Imagine a chinese asking an english about the british army shooting unarmed protesters in the back on Bloody Sunday for example?
Not only do most british not give two s
ts, they actively believe the killers should not face prosecution.I doubt it's much different throughout the world if you are not directly involved.
Agree with comments above.
If you were to discuss Tiananmen as a westerner with an average Chinese citizen, telling them what happened, they would look at you with an amount of bewilderment, based up on zero knowledge of the event. They would then quickly start to think that you are saying such things because you are anti-China, given the nationalist mindset they've been brought up in.
Its not the fault of the average Chinese citizen for their lack of knowledge on certain events, nor for their rigorous defense of China (and the CCP). Its just the environment they find themselves in and their access (or lack of) to information about things that can be seen to damage the CCP.
Regarding Hong Kong, the average mainland Chinese would naturally view this as a historic harm that China endured at the hands of western invading powers. The fact that China were forced to sign a treaty to hand over control of Hong Kong and Macau to the europeans is something that has been portrayed as a sore point in history for them (and arguably rightly so).
As HK has returned to China's control they see no reason as to why there should be ongoing separation of governance between mainland and HK. In their minds HK is China and always has been (again arguably so).
Having gained a few friends who are native HongKongers I've chatted with them a few times about the troubles over there. They say that they are grateful of the British rule which saw them avoid "the great leap backwards" that occurred in the mainland.
Many mainland Chinese fled over the border to HK when the communists brought down their brutal rule.
HK has seen a much earlier rise to prosperity than the mainland and many HK'ers have benefitted from this. Even though HK has one of the largest Rich Vs Poor divisions in the world.
Some are literally terrified at the prospect of the CCP now taking full control over the territory and are still evaluating what freedoms they may lose and how it will impact their lives.
If you were to discuss Tiananmen as a westerner with an average Chinese citizen, telling them what happened, they would look at you with an amount of bewilderment, based up on zero knowledge of the event. They would then quickly start to think that you are saying such things because you are anti-China, given the nationalist mindset they've been brought up in.
Its not the fault of the average Chinese citizen for their lack of knowledge on certain events, nor for their rigorous defense of China (and the CCP). Its just the environment they find themselves in and their access (or lack of) to information about things that can be seen to damage the CCP.
Regarding Hong Kong, the average mainland Chinese would naturally view this as a historic harm that China endured at the hands of western invading powers. The fact that China were forced to sign a treaty to hand over control of Hong Kong and Macau to the europeans is something that has been portrayed as a sore point in history for them (and arguably rightly so).
As HK has returned to China's control they see no reason as to why there should be ongoing separation of governance between mainland and HK. In their minds HK is China and always has been (again arguably so).
Having gained a few friends who are native HongKongers I've chatted with them a few times about the troubles over there. They say that they are grateful of the British rule which saw them avoid "the great leap backwards" that occurred in the mainland.
Many mainland Chinese fled over the border to HK when the communists brought down their brutal rule.
HK has seen a much earlier rise to prosperity than the mainland and many HK'ers have benefitted from this. Even though HK has one of the largest Rich Vs Poor divisions in the world.
Some are literally terrified at the prospect of the CCP now taking full control over the territory and are still evaluating what freedoms they may lose and how it will impact their lives.
It’s a little naive to think middle class and above citizens in China are not well informed.
Most have various ways to access and share the world news. It’s always a game of cat and mouse with the various internet restrictions but it’s doable.
The issue is really that many of them are in a good situation and don’t want to rock the boat. They don’t trust the CCP but at the same time have prospered under them and from the widespread corruption that has enabled them to get rich or richer.
Many are proud of China but at the same time take every opportunity to move their wealth to a safe country.
While the CCP can continue to deliver improvements in living standard, they will prosper. The complete control of daily life by the CCP is accepted by most as it keeps the money coming in.
Most have various ways to access and share the world news. It’s always a game of cat and mouse with the various internet restrictions but it’s doable.
The issue is really that many of them are in a good situation and don’t want to rock the boat. They don’t trust the CCP but at the same time have prospered under them and from the widespread corruption that has enabled them to get rich or richer.
Many are proud of China but at the same time take every opportunity to move their wealth to a safe country.
While the CCP can continue to deliver improvements in living standard, they will prosper. The complete control of daily life by the CCP is accepted by most as it keeps the money coming in.
GroundZero said:
Regarding Hong Kong, the average mainland Chinese would naturally view this as a historic harm that China endured at the hands of western invading powers. The fact that China were forced to sign a treaty to hand over control of Hong Kong and Macau to the europeans is something that has been portrayed as a sore point in history for them (and arguably rightly so).
As HK has returned to China's control they see no reason as to why there should be ongoing separation of governance between mainland and HK. In their minds HK is China and always has been (again arguably so).
Absolutely this. The Chinese make a big thing of the impact of British Imperialism. If you go to the likes of the Summer Palace or the Forbidden City lots of the information boards about what you are seeing and what happened make big references to how the British burnt them down and the Chinese rebuilt them after the British left as as sign of defiance etcAs HK has returned to China's control they see no reason as to why there should be ongoing separation of governance between mainland and HK. In their minds HK is China and always has been (again arguably so).
Exige77 said:
While the CCP can continue to deliver improvements in living standard, they will prosper. The complete control of daily life by the CCP is accepted by most as it keeps the money coming in.
Twas ever thus with totalitarian regimes. When the wheels fall off the economy, the state only has violence left as a tool of coercion. Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff