Time to disband the Met?

Author
Discussion

JeffreyD

6,155 posts

39 months

Wednesday 16th June 2021
quotequote all
N7GTX said:
There will be a lot of hot air for a week or two then a return to as-you-were.
Particularly as it's unlikely a large portion of the press are going to kick up a stink.


carinaman

21,211 posts

171 months

Wednesday 16th June 2021
quotequote all
slightlyoldgit said:
Events that started when the current commissioner was probably not long out of Hendon and then were added to long before she was in her current role, means she should lose her job - really?

So if your predecessor f**ked up - do you think it is reasonable for you to lose your job?
She's named in Volume 2 as being involved on the periphery of one of the failed investigations.

Screenshot from Volume 2:



link:

https://www.danielmorganpanel.independent.gov.uk/w...



Edited by carinaman on Wednesday 16th June 01:54

aston80

264 posts

40 months

Wednesday 16th June 2021
quotequote all
slightlyoldgit said:
Events that started when the current commissioner was probably not long out of Hendon and then were added to long before she was in her current role, means she should lose her job - really?

So if your predecessor f**ked up - do you think it is reasonable for you to lose your job?
She is absolutely **** herself though.

Biggy Stardust

6,796 posts

43 months

Wednesday 16th June 2021
quotequote all
La Liga said:
It's bizarre they wouldn't let them have access to HOLMES.

Wonder if there were some legal issues in the background or something.

Also wonder if the IOPC could have forced that and been involved.
I suspect that any legal issues would have been mentioned.

The taint of corruption has been suggested & seems to be evidenced.

Earthdweller

13,424 posts

125 months

Wednesday 16th June 2021
quotequote all
La Liga said:
It's bizarre they wouldn't let them have access to HOLMES.

Wonder if there were some legal issues in the background or something.

Also wonder if the IOPC could have forced that and been involved.
Wouldn’t allow or controlled access to the system ?

As I read it, if they wanted to see what was on it they had to go to a secure Met site and access the system onsite ( probably the Murder squad offices in Barking from reports )

I believe they subsequently gave them an encrypted laptop to use offsite, possibly with restricted access ?

It’s a highly sensitive system full of personal and private information and would be akin to a bank handing out the personal details and history of all their account holders to a third party they had no control over

Controlled viewing of a sensitive database doesn’t seem too much of a hardship

The why’s and wherefore’s I don’t know clearly but I can understand why there’d be caution around giving unrestricted access offsite

XCP

16,875 posts

227 months

Wednesday 16th June 2021
quotequote all
If I were her I'd retire, trouser the pension and look for a well paid sinecure somewhere else. Or just follow a hobby ( she won't need to work with the pension). Anything rather than this unending hassle.

Derek Smith

45,512 posts

247 months

Wednesday 16th June 2021
quotequote all
The Met has all the problems associated with a large operation and it requires organisational change. How many failures should there be before one is overwhelmed by the necessity of change?

It’s not that the force is particularly corrupt - just the reverse in fact if we look world-wide and compare like with like – but it does seem to be prone to similar failures time after time. I was a police officer in the 70s and, before I joined, there had been a series of scandals that produced no long lasting change. Eventually, with the assistance of the City of London police, the stench of corruption became so overwhelming that the need for change was forced on the government. Hence the Police and Criminal Evidence Act.

It wasn’t perfect; far from it. It didn’t address all the problems, but it did improved matters for suspects and those arrested. As someone who experienced both pre- and post-PACE policing, I thought it a remarkably effective bit of legislation. Chalk before, cheese after. That was 37 years ago and there’s been no significant legislative change. That’s 37 years.

It missed one significant area of the police: management. That is the source of much of the criticisms of the service. And, in many people’s eyes, quite rightly. However, the problem is that when there’s a failure of management, the lazy term ‘the police’ is used, covering all officers.

Management, and not only that of operational matters, needs its PACE Act. It needed it years ago. Ineffective, and sometime dishonest, management undermines the actions of operational police officers.

We, that’s operational police officers and the policed public need, and are entitled to, a Police Management Act. And soon.

Earthdweller

13,424 posts

125 months

Wednesday 16th June 2021
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
The Met has all the problems associated with a large operation and it requires organisational change. How many failures should there be before one is overwhelmed by the necessity of change?

It missed one significant area of the police: management. That is the source of much of the criticisms of the service. And, in many people’s eyes, quite rightly. However, the problem is that when there’s a failure of management, the lazy term ‘the police’ is used, covering all officers.

Management, and not only that of operational matters, needs its PACE Act. It needed it years ago. Ineffective, and sometime dishonest, management undermines the actions of operational police officers.

We, that’s operational police officers and the policed public need, and are entitled to, a Police Management Act. And soon.
I’ve snipped most of it to concentrate on the above, but before I do I will say that the Met is one of the least corrupt Police services in the world and 99% if it’s staff are honest decent and hard working

Anyway

They have tried and failed to address the “management” of the Police

The ethos is now that you don’t actually need to know anything about policing, or any actual experience of “policing” to be a “leader”

And that is bunkum

The idea of direct entry Inspectors/Superintendent being recruited because they have a degree straight into command roles is an unmitigated disaster

Promotion has been for a number of years not only based on who you know and whether your face fits ( it always was ) but also increasingly on identity politics and based on skin colour/race/sexual orientation over competence and ability

The dream factory otherwise known as the College of Policing needs to be abolished and the Police need to go back to basics

It’s not only senior Police ranks but also the civilianisation where people with zero knowledge or experience are parachuted into senior levels of the organisation without any comprehension of the role and then in some cases put in critical and sometimes operational decision making positions

It is a recipe for mediocrity and underperformance where people without the critical knowledge or understanding shy away from decision making that would highlight their incompetence or make bad and ill
Judged decisions

The career path for those on accelerated promotion is about box ticking and getting “roles” on their CV without actually doing anything that could tarnish their portfolio.. 6 months here .. 6 months there etc without ever actually getting a full understanding of any of the roles.

this leads as they progress up the ranks to a culture of deniable responsibility and decisions when made are frequently based on how do I distance/protect myself from this followed by how do I protect the organisation

It’s a self perpetuating wheel where the mediocre surround themselves with their ilk and those who have entered the system the same way and show complete disdain for and actively ( at times ) obstruct the progression of those who are competent and very good at their jobs but not in their club

People complain about the corruption of old, but it’s here today in a different form, in police management where only those in a ( as they see it ) elite closed group can progress

There are a handful of Senior cops that aren’t in that mould, one I’ll single out being Nick Adderley who is currently Chief of Northants, a brilliant cop, very switched on decent and a natural leader .. and god knows the police need far far more like him

But yes Derek, in short, Police management is broken

smile

Drumroll

3,738 posts

119 months

Wednesday 16th June 2021
quotequote all
The OP asked if it was time to disband the Met, the thread then rapidly moved to the action ( or lack of) by the Met. Commissioner.

In answer to the OP clearly it is neither appropriate or right to disband the whole of the Met. There are some questions to be asked though, about how the Met is managed.


Derek Smith

45,512 posts

247 months

Wednesday 16th June 2021
quotequote all
Earthdweller said:
I’ve snipped most of it to concentrate on the above, but before I do I will say that the Met is one of the least corrupt Police services in the world and 99% if it’s staff are honest decent and hard working

Anyway

They have tried and failed to address the “management” of the Police

The ethos is now that you don’t actually need to know anything about policing, or any actual experience of “policing” to be a “leader”

And that is bunkum

The idea of direct entry Inspectors/Superintendent being recruited because they have a degree straight into command roles is an unmitigated disaster

Promotion has been for a number of years not only based on who you know and whether your face fits ( it always was ) but also increasingly on identity politics and based on skin colour/race/sexual orientation over competence and ability

The dream factory otherwise known as the College of Policing needs to be abolished and the Police need to go back to basics

It’s not only senior Police ranks but also the civilianisation where people with zero knowledge or experience are parachuted into senior levels of the organisation without any comprehension of the role and then in some cases put in critical and sometimes operational decision making positions

It is a recipe for mediocrity and underperformance where people without the critical knowledge or understanding shy away from decision making that would highlight their incompetence or make bad and ill
Judged decisions

The career path for those on accelerated promotion is about box ticking and getting “roles” on their CV without actually doing anything that could tarnish their portfolio.. 6 months here .. 6 months there etc without ever actually getting a full understanding of any of the roles.

this leads as they progress up the ranks to a culture of deniable responsibility and decisions when made are frequently based on how do I distance/protect myself from this followed by how do I protect the organisation

It’s a self perpetuating wheel where the mediocre surround themselves with their ilk and those who have entered the system the same way and show complete disdain for and actively ( at times ) obstruct the progression of those who are competent and very good at their jobs but not in their club

People complain about the corruption of old, but it’s here today in a different form, in police management where only those in a ( as they see it ) elite closed group can progress

There are a handful of Senior cops that aren’t in that mould, one I’ll single out being Nick Adderley who is currently Chief of Northants, a brilliant cop, very switched on decent and a natural leader .. and god knows the police need far far more like him

But yes Derek, in short, Police management is broken

smile
That's a depressing post. Lucky I've got some anti-depressants left over.

There was a make-believe contest for Dick’s job. Everyone knew who’d get it.

One chap who threw his peaked cap into the ring was a chap I know. I’d worked with him a couple of times and his competence was a bit daunting. He was ex-Navy, and it showed. No messing, talked straight and, his biggest failure, was answering questions honestly, directly and without deflection. It was a wonder he’d got as far as he did.

I know there was certainly a degree of the old-fogey in this, but I was in an HQ bar with another inspector of the same service. It was the evening. In came a group of inspectors, on a management course that should have been entitled, ‘Vying for further promotion’. My friend said, ‘Have you noticed how alike they all are? Take away hair colour and sex and they are clones.’ It was stretching the truth. A couple had beards. But it was obvious what she meant.

I was asked to speak to them, from a point of view of an inspector who was, it went unsaid, was rather past it. It proved how right my friend was. No spark, no fun, no willingness to put me on the spot. Yet, as you suggest, they’d ticked all the boxes.

Being different. Seeing things from an alternative point of view. Coming to conclusions against received wisdom. I mean, it’s so dangerous.

The fault/blame lies with the Home Office. They set the rules. We’ve had a succession of inept Home Secs because they have been in the same mould – all after the next job up.

Biggy Stardust

6,796 posts

43 months

Wednesday 16th June 2021
quotequote all
It's interesting the way the narrative has been transformed from the institutional corruption found in the report to the problems of cloned CYA management.

Anyone care to discuss the former?

FNG

4,157 posts

223 months

Wednesday 16th June 2021
quotequote all
Nah, all beat coppers who are as honest as the day is long guv. Management's rotten though eh.

All they need is a Red Robbo.

oddman

2,277 posts

251 months

Wednesday 16th June 2021
quotequote all
The Spectator article linked above nails it by demonstrating how organisations destroy whistle blowers and other forms of dissent. Managerialism destroys professionalism and independent crticial thinking.

The problem with all public sector managers is that they have to bridge the gap between reality and the politicians. Successful managers can get only so far by being naive enthusiasts and jumping on the latest BS agenda/trend to succeed. They need to be utterly cynical psychopaths to make it into the higher echelons and be prepared to 'give assurances' to higher management and ultimately politicians that things are OK. Well conducted enquiries peel off the mask

In the NHS it's possible to 'fail upwards' because the organisation is so complex. Inept but overconfident people can move from Trust to Trust and between the primary secondary care sectors and the Dept of Health, leaving a trail of disaster behind them polishing their CV as they go.

The Met is much higher profile and narrow so I suspect the successful managers have to be better at covering their tracks. Poor performance that might be seen as a governance issue in other public sectors is rightly more likely to be diagnosed as corruption in the Police.

Looks like it's caught up with Dick

Gareth79

7,628 posts

245 months

Wednesday 16th June 2021
quotequote all
Earthdweller said:
Wouldn’t allow or controlled access to the system ?

As I read it, if they wanted to see what was on it they had to go to a secure Met site and access the system onsite ( probably the Murder squad offices in Barking from reports )

I believe they subsequently gave them an encrypted laptop to use offsite, possibly with restricted access ?

It’s a highly sensitive system full of personal and private information and would be akin to a bank handing out the personal details and history of all their account holders to a third party they had no control over

Controlled viewing of a sensitive database doesn’t seem too much of a hardship

The why’s and wherefore’s I don’t know clearly but I can understand why there’d be caution around giving unrestricted access offsite
The report goes into it in detail, and it's quite complicated, but it seems clear that roadblocks were put into place which were not an actual problem. They were quoting huge figures for a dedicated terminal, when there was a "laptop solution" available, but that was denied for unknown reasons even though panel members had used that system before for other unrelated investigations. Eventually the expert (who had to attend an office every time they wanted to use HOLMES) was given a laptop for remote access during lockdown.

One interesting problem was that the MPS had loaded "secret" classified data onto HOLMES (eg. informant identities), when it should not have been, since HOLMES is not intended or rated for it.


N7GTX

7,822 posts

142 months

Wednesday 16th June 2021
quotequote all
Daniel Morgan was murdered in 1987. While Dick is not entirely blameless what about this lot:

1. Peter Imbert 1987-1993
2. Paul Condon 1993-2000
3. John Stevens 2000-2005
4. Iain Blair 2005-2008
5. Paul Stephenson 2009-2011
6. Bernard Hogan-Howe 2011-2017
7. Cressida Dick 2017- ?

They must all carry some responsibility. With their huge pensions completely safe I cannot see any of them coming out of the woodwork to apologise to the family.

Earthdweller

13,424 posts

125 months

Wednesday 16th June 2021
quotequote all
FNG said:
Nah, all beat coppers who are as honest as the day is long guv. Management's rotten though eh.

All they need is a Red Robbo.
Beat coppers almost unfailingly are

The corruption and the opportunity for corruption comes mainly within the CID and specialist units, particularly those involved in the pursuance of serious organised criminals

People like the Adam’s family have big pockets and lots of influence and if they can turn one or two then it’s worth it for them

What benefit is a brown envelope from them to a dog handler or community beat officer ?

There isn’t

The scrutiny beat coppers are under is immense both inside and outside the job

However, a detective on a central unit, possibly a covert one has very little scrutiny, far more access to sensitive information and the opportunity

That’s why the Met and other forces have deep undercover units that don’t target the public but work entirely to uncover bent cops

Nothing is perfect and the job has come a long way from the days of Robert Mark and Op Countryman


Earthdweller

13,424 posts

125 months

Wednesday 16th June 2021
quotequote all
Biggy Stardust said:
It's interesting the way the narrative has been transformed from the institutional corruption found in the report to the problems of cloned CYA management.

Anyone care to discuss the former?
Is the Met institutionally corrupt

No

Is there corruption in the Met

Yes

Is it endemic

No


Are the Police good at finding and weeding it out

Generally, yes

Could they do better

Yes


Derek Smith

45,512 posts

247 months

Wednesday 16th June 2021
quotequote all
Pupp said:
No magic wand to wield here, but this Spectator article from a few years ago seems remarkably prescient…

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-shocking-t...

We all deserve better in the metropolis; don’t we?
It’s a very poor article, with few specifics. Comparing 2015 police with that of 50 years previous would need justification, and it’s not there.

I agree with the main theme of the article, that of restricted press freedom, but that has little to do with the police, more with the government. My force allowed free access, with limited limitations, to a local, fairly well-respected, newspaper that was not particularly pro-police. It was for one journo. This was criticised by the then HomSec and the CC was later dismissed. There was general acceptance in the force that it was for political reasons. It was a message to other CCs that was, apparently, taken on board. The laws have changed, and a police officer complaining to the press of an internal situation in their force probably commits an offence.

That individual police officers cannot ‘whistle-blow’ with regards discipline (they can't to the press) may have been correct at the time of publication, but stats from a year or so later show that the complaining officer in most discipline offences was another police officer or police staff member.

There’s the suggestion, unevidenced, that corruption is becoming routine. It’s outlandish. Such hyperbole demands support, but it's not there. There’s even the ‘full pension rights’ bit, just there to inflame those looking to be inflamed.

Readers deserve better from their journalists.

pavarotti1980

4,837 posts

83 months

Wednesday 16th June 2021
quotequote all
oddman said:
In the NHS it's possible to 'fail upwards' because the organisation is so complex. Inept but overconfident people can move from Trust to Trust and between the primary secondary care sectors and the Dept of Health, leaving a trail of disaster behind them polishing their CV as they go.
I concur. The person who I replaced in the NHS (Band 8a) is now a Trust Chief Exec. Since they left 8 years ago they have moved roles within NHSE/I and various trusts at least 10 times no doubt leaving the trail of st behind them everywhere they have been

Earthdweller

13,424 posts

125 months

Wednesday 16th June 2021
quotequote all
pavarotti1980 said:
oddman said:
In the NHS it's possible to 'fail upwards' because the organisation is so complex. Inept but overconfident people can move from Trust to Trust and between the primary secondary care sectors and the Dept of Health, leaving a trail of disaster behind them polishing their CV as they go.
I concur. The person who I replaced in the NHS (Band 8a) is now a Trust Chief Exec. Since they left 8 years ago they have moved roles within NHSE/I and various trusts at least 10 times no doubt leaving the trail of st behind them everywhere they have been
And that happens in the Police too

The Inspector causing mayhem ... give him a CI role in a support unit

Sideways and upwards out of the firing line .. make them someone else’s problem