First transgender athlete to compete at Olympics

[ZedLeg]

RobbieTheTruth said:

ZedLeg said:

MC Bodge said:

ZedLeg said:

I do think that transwomen should be allowed to compete in women's sport but that's just my opinion. It's up to the various governing bodies to decide if this is fair or not.

If you had a daughter who trained all her life to make the Olympics team, then a 40 year old ex-male comes along who can out lift her with ease (mainly due to strength training whilst having a male body, male bone structure,m male genetics and going through male puberty) you'd be ok with that?

If there were 3 ex-males competing in the same competition (which is highly likely bu the time the next Olymics comes round), lifting weights she couldn't get near, what would you tell her? Keep trying - or should she just give up?

Let's not even get started on the ethics of people born male fighting against women in combat sport, because you'll run away rather than debate that.

Literally impossible to say as I have no plans to have kids.

I’m personally not a very competitive person though so I’d probably let any kids I had know that it’s ok to just do a sport for the fun of it.

Do you have any basis for the assertation that there will be more trans athletes at the next olympics or just you’re fevered obsession running away with you?

Just because I choose not to engage with the repeated ramblings about heavyweight boxers beating up women doesn’t mean I’m running away from debate.

[MC Bodge]

ZedLeg said:

Literally impossible to say as I have no plans to have kids.

I’m personally not a very competitive person though so I’d probably let any kids I had know that it’s ok to just do a sport for the fun of it.

Do you have any basis for the assertation that there will be more trans athletes at the next olympics or just you’re fevered obsession running away with you?

Just because I choose not to engage with the repeated ramblings about heavyweight boxers beating up women doesn’t mean I’m running away from debate.

You are not interested in, or knowledgeable about, sport, but you have posted a huge number of times in this thread because you are very interested in trans gender issues.

This issue is primarily, and almost entirely, about sport. It has become about rights.

[ZedLeg]

MC Bodge said:

ZedLeg said:

Literally impossible to say as I have no plans to have kids.

I’m personally not a very competitive person though so I’d probably let any kids I had know that it’s ok to just do a sport for the fun of it.

Do you have any basis for the assertation that there will be more trans athletes at the next olympics or just you’re fevered obsession running away with you?

Just because I choose not to engage with the repeated ramblings about heavyweight boxers beating up women doesn’t mean I’m running away from debate.

You are not interested in, or knowledgeable about, sport, but you have posted a huge number of times in this thread because you are very interested in trans gender issues.

This issue is primarily, and almost entirely, about sport. It has become about rights.

I didn’t say I wasn’t interested in sport. I enjoy watching sport, I cycle and have played badminton, basketball and rugby in the past.

I am also interested in weightlifting and strength competitions but I’m not admittedly super knowledgeable about the technical rules of Olympic lifting.

I’ve never pretended that I’m not here to speak up for trans people against some quite ugly language.

[g3org3y]

Gecko1978 said:

ZedLeg said:

g3org3y said:

Interview with Marcus Evans who formerly served as Consultant Psychotherapist and Associate Clinical Director of Adult and Adolescent Service at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust.

What are your thoughts on the Keira Bell case BTW?

Edited by g3org3y on Wednesday 23 June 12:47

Ok so, An NHS run clinic being accused of fast tracking transitions for young people already in the system isn't the same as claiming a charity that helps young people with gender issues is pushing people towards transitioning as a fix for mental health issues.

The clinic also faced claims of holding up treatment for people so there's clearly more to the story.

As for the last thing, it's very sad that this girl feels like she was mislead into transitioning when other treatments may have been better for her. You always have to be very careful when dealing with young people, especially when dealing with something as life changing as transitioning. I wouldn't want to say anymore as I don't know enough about the specific issues.

If you listend to it, the whistle blower was saying the charity was pushing children who may have had underlying issues not related to gender to transition, by assisting them with answeting questions from psychiatrists which would then allow them to move on to hormone therapy. The whistle blower claimed the charity was influencing clinical practices. Both of those things are wrong and I am not sure why you would push someome to transition without considering other issues. He also noted the recent change aas a growth in female to male transition which was practically non existent 20 years ago. If we assume sexual orientation, gender identity differences are perfectly naturally occurring then a sharp shift in a short space of time does bare scrutiny.

ZedLeg, did you actually listen to the interview?

8.4L 154 said:

g3org3y said:

What are your thoughts on the Keira Bell case BTW?

I'm guessing you're going to be against the prescribing of puberty blockers for all the spurious reasons trans critical activists usually are such as it's a one way street to CSH despite them being prescribed in multiple other instances without leading to CSH or the unsubstantiated claims of reduced bone density.

What do you think of the Keira Bell case?

[MC Bodge]

ZedLeg said:

I didn’t say I wasn’t interested in sport. I enjoy watching sport, I cycle and have played badminton, basketball and rugby in the past.

I am also interested in weightlifting and strength competitions but I’m not admittedly super knowledgeable about the technical rules of Olympic lifting.

I’ve never pretended that I’m not here to speak up for trans people against some quite ugly language.

You can speak up for trans gender people without having to support the NZ trans woman taking part in the women's weightlifting.

The heavyweight boxing question is relevant.

Most of the people in this thread do not appear to hate or deny trans gender people.

[survivalist]

Isn't the main issue that the separation of sex and gender doesn't really work in sport? More specifically, it works in the favour of people who have transitioned from men to women and massively against those who transition from women to men.

[MC Bodge]

survivalist said:

Isn't the main issue that the separation of sex and gender doesn't really work in sport? More specifically, it works in the favour of people who have transitioned from men to women and massively against those who transition from women to men.

Yes, and it appears fairly obvious to me.

It is to be discussed on The Moral Maze on R4 at 8.

[RobbieTheTruth]

ZedLeg said:

RobbieTheTruth said:

ZedLeg said:

MC Bodge said:

ZedLeg said:

I do think that transwomen should be allowed to compete in women's sport but that's just my opinion. It's up to the various governing bodies to decide if this is fair or not.

If you had a daughter who trained all her life to make the Olympics team, then a 40 year old ex-male comes along who can out lift her with ease (mainly due to strength training whilst having a male body, male bone structure,m male genetics and going through male puberty) you'd be ok with that?

If there were 3 ex-males competing in the same competition (which is highly likely bu the time the next Olymics comes round), lifting weights she couldn't get near, what would you tell her? Keep trying - or should she just give up?

Let's not even get started on the ethics of people born male fighting against women in combat sport, because you'll run away rather than debate that.

Literally impossible to say as I have no plans to have kids.

I’m personally not a very competitive person though so I’d probably let any kids I had know that it’s ok to just do a sport for the fun of it.

Do you have any basis for the assertation that there will be more trans athletes at the next olympics or just you’re fevered obsession running away with you?

Just because I choose not to engage with the repeated ramblings about heavyweight boxers beating up women doesn’t mean I’m running away from debate.

You're very much running away from the debate as you can't give logical answers that suit your woke agenda.

Everyone else can likely answer the two questions honestly - whatever their general view on trans rights are.

You can't.

You cant because you know it's utter lunacy for a male heavyweight boxer to transition and be allowed to compete in the female heavyweight division.

You claim that you agree that ex-males should compete in female sports, but you cant bring yourself to answer the above because you actually know it's unfair, immoral and very dangerous.

You couldn't say what your advice would be to female athletes if ex-males enter their sport and make it impossible to medal, so you'll flounce.

[Gecko1978]

MC Bodge said:

survivalist said:

Isn't the main issue that the separation of sex and gender doesn't really work in sport? More specifically, it works in the favour of people who have transitioned from men to women and massively against those who transition from women to men.

Yes, and it appears fairly obvious to me.

It is to be discussed on The Moral Maze on R4 at 8.

letting Laurel Hubbard compete is like letting Lewis Hamilton have this years car and other drivers get one from 2 years ago but saying you cant complain because lewis thinks his car is the same.

Out in the parking lot Lewis can think his car is whatever he wants but as soon as it comes to completion then his car needs to be the same the rules are there in motorsport to allow different designs but Lewis can't fit a turbo charged V10 to his car with ground effects and an electric boost and say well on the outside it looks like a Ferrari and a McLaren.

This should apply to all competition, if I were playing armature rugby I dont want to play someone who is going to literally destroy me. I don't want to play amateur tennis an have my opponent out serve me every time and not because they are fitter because they were born a man.

[98elise]

RobbieTheTruth said:

98elise said:

John McEnroe once said Serena Williams wouldn't be in the top 700 if she played against men. He wasn't being flippant.

He did, and there was a lot of controversy and calls for him to be sacked for expressing that opinion.

Even though it was a logical, sound and likely correct opinion based on the following:

"1998: Karsten Braasch vs. the Williams sisters

Another event dubbed a "Battle of the Sexes" took place during the 1998 Australian Open between Karsten Braasch and the Williams sisters. Venus and Serena Williams had claimed that they could beat any male player ranked outside the world's top 200, so Braasch, then ranked 203rd, challenged them both. Braasch was described by one journalist as "a man whose training regime centered around a pack of cigarettes and more than a couple of bottles of ice cold lager".[The matches took place on court number 12 in Melbourne Park,after Braasch had finished a round of golf and two shandies.

He first took on Serena and after leading 5–0, beat her 6–1. Venus then walked on court and again Braasch was victorious, this time winning 6–2.
Braasch said afterwards, "500 and above, no chance". He added that he had played like someone ranked 600th in order to keep the game "fun" and that the big difference was that men can chase down shots much easier and put spin on the ball that female players can't handle. The Williams sisters adjusted their claim to beating men outside the top 350."

I didn't know about that one. I know there had been previous "battle of the sexes" exhibition matches.

Before McEnroe said anything I actually thought it would be much closer. I'm not a sports fan really so I don't know how top flight sports compare on stats.

That said even if the Williams sisters wouldn't figure in the top 700
men, that still puts them above about 3.5bn men.

[Abdul Abulbul Amir]

98elise said:

I didn't know about that one. I know there had been previous "battle of the sexes" exhibition matches.

Before McEnroe said anything I actually thought it would be much closer. I'm not a sports fan really so I don't know how top flight sports compare on stats.

That said even if the Williams sisters wouldn't figure in the top 700
men, that still puts them above about 3.5bn men.

Not if 3.5bn men started playing tennis.

[768]

Gecko1978 said:

letting Laurel Hubbard compete is like letting Lewis Hamilton have this years car and other drivers get one from 2 years ago but saying you cant complain because lewis thinks his car is the same.

The advantage is way bigger than that, but yes. Changing the stickers isn't going to make them the same car.

[RobbieTheTruth]

Abdul Abulbul Amir said:

98elise said:

I didn't know about that one. I know there had been previous "battle of the sexes" exhibition matches.

Before McEnroe said anything I actually thought it would be much closer. I'm not a sports fan really so I don't know how top flight sports compare on stats.

That said even if the Williams sisters wouldn't figure in the top 700
men, that still puts them above about 3.5bn men.

Not if 3.5bn men started playing tennis.

Exactly! What a bizarre statement!

Basically, if a guy in the top 500 men decides to transition, he's likely to win Wimbledon every year.

If 3-4 guys to, women will stop winning trophies.

If the number of men identifying as women continues to rise, and these people start playing tennis at a young age, they will replace women in the elite rankings.

[RobbieTheTruth]

8.4L 154 said:

Gecko1978 said:

letting Laurel Hubbard compete is like letting Lewis Hamilton have this years car and other drivers get one from 2 years ago but saying you cant complain because lewis thinks his car is the same.

Out in the parking lot Lewis can think his car is whatever he wants but as soon as it comes to completion then his car needs to be the same the rules are there in motorsport to allow different designs but Lewis can't fit a turbo charged V10 to his car with ground effects and an electric boost and say well on the outside it looks like a Ferrari and a McLaren.

This should apply to all competition, if I were playing armature rugby I dont want to play someone who is going to literally destroy me. I don't want to play amateur tennis an have my opponent out serve me every time and not because they are fitter because they were born a man.

Ignoring you horrifically dehumanising analogy you do realise that Laurel hubbard is competing within the rules set out by the sports governing body and IOC.

Yes he realises that, like we all do.

He also understands Hubbard has a male body, male skeleton, male bone density and went through puberty as a man, and was a weightlifter as a man and therefore a natural huge advantage.

[MC Bodge]

RobbieTheTruth said:

Yes he realises that, like we all do.

He also understands Hubbard has a male body, male skeleton, male bone density and went through puberty as a man, and was a weightlifter as a man and therefore a natural huge advantage.

There is actually no real argument about this.

It shouldn't be about a person's view on trans gender people.

It is about categorisation of sports participation.

[rover 623gsi]

qualifying time for the women's 1500m at this year's Olympics is 4min 4.2 seconds

Three British women have bettered that time this year - so by definition they are among the best in the world

https://thepowerof10.info/rankings/rankinglist.asp...

for comparison, so far this year 408 British men have run quicker than that - and that's in a year when racing opportunities have been very limited

https://thepowerof10.info/rankings/rankinglist.asp...

there really is no comparison between men and women

[ReallyReallyGood]

MC Bodge said:

There is actually no real argument about this.

It shouldn't be about a person's view on trans gender people.

It is about categorisation of sports participation.

Exactly. I’m amazed it’s even a debate.

[BobsPigeon]

8.4L 154 said:

Ignoring you horrifically dehumanising analogy you do realise that Laurel hubbard is competing within the rules set out by the sports governing body and IOC.

Just as a point of note, and I'll happily admit I've not expertise or experience in weightlifting, but I have been involved lightly in the administration of another "minor" Olympic sport, and believe me when I say that I very much suspect that the world governing body of weightlifting is no where near as professional or well considered on this or any points as you may think.

It will basically comprise of several very dodgy characters from eastern Europe and northern Asia in blazers and a couple of western lawyers meeting in a SE Asian lady bar twice a year and deciding what do between drinks and lap dances. The IOC really only differ on budget.

[MC Bodge]

8.4L 154 said:

rover 623gsi said:

there really is no comparison between men and women

I dont know of anyone saying otherwise.

Are you claiming that HRT, and Testosterone suppression have zero effect? Or are you going to maintain and keep attacking the straw man that trans women in sport have the same performance as cisgender men.

That's not it.

Trans women, who were once men, and retain varying degrees of their biological male characteristics, are not the same as women who were born as women.

[rover 623gsi]

8.4L 154 said:

rover 623gsi said:

there really is no comparison between men and women

I dont know of anyone saying otherwise.

Are you claiming that HRT, and Testosterone suppression have zero effect? Or are you going to maintain and keep attacking the straw man that trans women in sport have the same performance as cisgender men.

I have no doubt that if a male takes HRT and testosterone suppression it will have an impact on their physical abilities. However, that does not make them a woman. It does not turn a male into a female. The obsession with testosterone levels is a complete red herring. There's a whole bunch of reasons why males have more speed, strength and stamina than females.

My view is clear - no male born person should be allowed to compete in sport, at any level, in women's sport. To allow it destroys the integrity of women's sport. You either have sport for women or you don't.