First transgender athlete to compete at Olympics
Discussion
We have been debating this for a while now but I think I have come up with a simple test to solve it.
At birth would it be assumed the athlete could have children 1 day. If yes then they can have access to female sport subject later to any additional testing should it be deemed necessary, if the answer is no then you can't play in female tournaments.
So caster semina would have been able to compete up untill she went for further tests. Laurel Hubbard never.
At birth would it be assumed the athlete could have children 1 day. If yes then they can have access to female sport subject later to any additional testing should it be deemed necessary, if the answer is no then you can't play in female tournaments.
So caster semina would have been able to compete up untill she went for further tests. Laurel Hubbard never.
RobbieTheTruth said:
And presumably you understand the advantages of a male body over a female when it comes to strength?
What do you think should happen re. Hubbard?
Should they compete in the Olympics against females?
I already expressed an opinion on that.What do you think should happen re. Hubbard?
Should they compete in the Olympics against females?
But for the "whatever" thing - if there's a solution that resolves the issue without creating a trans rights issue in doing so, I'm unlikely to have an issue with it. That's what I mean by "whatever".
Randy Winkman said:
MC Bodge said:
RobbieTheTruth said:
InitialDave said:
RobbieTheTruth said:
Basically, do whatever as long as trans-rights are protected.
That's not an especially terrible stance tbf.The key word being whatever.
The 'whatever' in this example is letting ex-males compete against females in strength sports despite them having huge biological advantages.
It is potentially sacrificing the whole of women's sport for an admittedly very difficult issue for a very small minority of people and governing bodies could end up spending a long time and legal fees on this.
InitialDave said:
RobbieTheTruth said:
And presumably you understand the advantages of a male body over a female when it comes to strength?
What do you think should happen re. Hubbard?
Should they compete in the Olympics against females?
I already expressed an opinion on that.What do you think should happen re. Hubbard?
Should they compete in the Olympics against females?
But for the "whatever" thing - if there's a solution that resolves the issue without creating a trans rights issue in doing so, I'm unlikely to have an issue with it. That's what I mean by "whatever".
There isn't going to be a solution is there?
I think the tests Rugby did suggested a 20-30% advantage from a male body over female, even with testosterone blockers.
ZedLeg said:
Trans people are subject to a frankly insane amount of abuse and ridicule in general but it has really ramped up over the last few years. I'll always speak up for them.
I've edited out what I was going to say, as it seems these days that any views that are not PC enough, 'woke' enough, and are not fully supportive of the trans 'community' are not tolerated in LGBTQI+ gestapo Britain. Maybe those complaining about abuse & ridicule should try living in Russia, Poland, Hungary, Lithuania, Nigeria, Iran, Iraq, Saudi etc for a while and let us know how wonderfully tolerant and accepting those countries are? Anyway, zero Fs given about trans issues. I must've stumbled on to the wrong site.... I was looking for car stuff.
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 24th June 23:59
chrispmartha said:
Utter nonsense, but whatever, have a good evening.
I don’t see you posting much on NP&E except for trans related issues.My impression is that you are blindly pro-trans. Whatever the topic or issues raised you defend trans. You come across as inflexible and narrow minded as the bigots on the other side of the debate.
It is clear that trans women competing at a professional level is unfair for women born as women. That has nothing to do with bigotry. Simple biology. As others have proved on here with links showing that women’s Olympic records would not be quick enough for them to qualify at high school championships for boys.
Your instinctive defence of trans also seems to make you blind to the obvious abuse of trans rights that is being perpetrated. I am not saying that all trans women competing at a professional level are fake but given the predominance of trans women in power sports where their male biology gives them a huge advantage it looks very suspicious, especially as I understand many compete without surgical transition.
With your blind defence you also don’t seem to realise that this issue is a PR disaster for genuine trans women.
How about showing some empathy for CIS women, listen to the arguments put by others and apply some critical thought to this issue?
RobbieTheTruth said:
InitialDave said:
RobbieTheTruth said:
Basically, do whatever as long as trans-rights are protected.
That's not an especially terrible stance tbf.The key word being whatever.
The 'whatever' in this example is letting ex-males compete against females in strength sports despite them having huge biological advantages.
I mean, no one has ‘a right’ to compete at the olympics. Every who is there has earned it, and there are disqualifying criteria for everyone.
I personally do not think it undermines trans rights, as in, the legal right to live as your gender, have it legally recognised and be protected from social discrimination, to accept that at elite levels of competition it is a barrier to entry.
Perhaps as we learn more, and as we have transgender athletes who ever went through male or female puberty start to come onto the scene this can be teased out some more, but as it stands I don’t think it undermines trans gender rights.
What, potentially, does undermine transgender rights in the long term is fighting so many fronts simultaneously when the social conscience has not caught up.
Esceptico said:
I don’t see you posting much on NP&E except for trans related issues.
My impression is that you are blindly pro-trans. Whatever the topic or issues raised you defend trans. You come across as inflexible and narrow minded as the bigots on the other side of the debate.
It is clear that trans women competing at a professional level is unfair for women born as women. That has nothing to do with bigotry. Simple biology. As others have proved on here with links showing that women’s Olympic records would not be quick enough for them to qualify at high school championships for boys.
Your instinctive defence of trans also seems to make you blind to the obvious abuse of trans rights that is being perpetrated. I am not saying that all trans women competing at a professional level are fake but given the predominance of trans women in power sports where their male biology gives them a huge advantage it looks very suspicious, especially as I understand many compete without surgical transition.
With your blind defence you also don’t seem to realise that this issue is a PR disaster for genuine trans women.
How about showing some empathy for CIS women, listen to the arguments put by others and apply some critical thought to this issue?
Which part of me saying ‘i can see both sides so haven’t 100% made up my mind where I stand on it” is being blindly pro trans? Or not listening to the arguments.My impression is that you are blindly pro-trans. Whatever the topic or issues raised you defend trans. You come across as inflexible and narrow minded as the bigots on the other side of the debate.
It is clear that trans women competing at a professional level is unfair for women born as women. That has nothing to do with bigotry. Simple biology. As others have proved on here with links showing that women’s Olympic records would not be quick enough for them to qualify at high school championships for boys.
Your instinctive defence of trans also seems to make you blind to the obvious abuse of trans rights that is being perpetrated. I am not saying that all trans women competing at a professional level are fake but given the predominance of trans women in power sports where their male biology gives them a huge advantage it looks very suspicious, especially as I understand many compete without surgical transition.
With your blind defence you also don’t seem to realise that this issue is a PR disaster for genuine trans women.
How about showing some empathy for CIS women, listen to the arguments put by others and apply some critical thought to this issue?
As for your last paragraph I have every empathy for ‘CIS women’ what I don’t do like some on here is say I know what ‘they’ want or should think.
gregs656 said:
I don’t think ‘whatever’ is necessarily problematic.
I mean, no one has ‘a right’ to compete at the olympics. Every who is there has earned it, and there are disqualifying criteria for everyone.
I personally do not think it undermines trans rights, as in, the legal right to live as your gender, have it legally recognised and be protected from social discrimination, to accept that at elite levels of competition it is a barrier to entry.
Perhaps as we learn more, and as we have transgender athletes who ever went through male or female puberty start to come onto the scene this can be teased out some more, but as it stands I don’t think it undermines trans gender rights.
What, potentially, does undermine transgender rights in the long term is fighting so many fronts simultaneously when the social conscience has not caught up.
I think this is a great post and sums up my thoughts on it, you’ve probably just worded it better than I have.I mean, no one has ‘a right’ to compete at the olympics. Every who is there has earned it, and there are disqualifying criteria for everyone.
I personally do not think it undermines trans rights, as in, the legal right to live as your gender, have it legally recognised and be protected from social discrimination, to accept that at elite levels of competition it is a barrier to entry.
Perhaps as we learn more, and as we have transgender athletes who ever went through male or female puberty start to come onto the scene this can be teased out some more, but as it stands I don’t think it undermines trans gender rights.
What, potentially, does undermine transgender rights in the long term is fighting so many fronts simultaneously when the social conscience has not caught up.
chrispmartha said:
gregs656 said:
I don’t think ‘whatever’ is necessarily problematic.
I mean, no one has ‘a right’ to compete at the olympics. Every who is there has earned it, and there are disqualifying criteria for everyone.
I personally do not think it undermines trans rights, as in, the legal right to live as your gender, have it legally recognised and be protected from social discrimination, to accept that at elite levels of competition it is a barrier to entry.
Perhaps as we learn more, and as we have transgender athletes who ever went through male or female puberty start to come onto the scene this can be teased out some more, but as it stands I don’t think it undermines trans gender rights.
What, potentially, does undermine transgender rights in the long term is fighting so many fronts simultaneously when the social conscience has not caught up.
I think this is a great post and sums up my thoughts on it, you’ve probably just worded it better than I have.I mean, no one has ‘a right’ to compete at the olympics. Every who is there has earned it, and there are disqualifying criteria for everyone.
I personally do not think it undermines trans rights, as in, the legal right to live as your gender, have it legally recognised and be protected from social discrimination, to accept that at elite levels of competition it is a barrier to entry.
Perhaps as we learn more, and as we have transgender athletes who ever went through male or female puberty start to come onto the scene this can be teased out some more, but as it stands I don’t think it undermines trans gender rights.
What, potentially, does undermine transgender rights in the long term is fighting so many fronts simultaneously when the social conscience has not caught up.
No one can truely believe she doesn't know she has an advantage given her history in the sport. Perhaps for her its a rebirth i.e. she always wanted to be a women and thus this is her chance to live that dream / goal. I get that to an extent but ahe will know 100% she is taking glory from female competitors and doesn't care. That makes her a bad sports women. Ben Johnson in a leotard, Lance Armstrong etc.
Romford4 said:
ZedLeg said:
Trans people are subject to a frankly insane amount of abuse and ridicule in general but it has really ramped up over the last few years. I'll always speak up for them.
I've edited out what I was going to say, as it seems these days that any views that are not PC enough, 'woke' enough, and are not fully supportive of the trans 'community' are not tolerated in LGBTQI+ gestapo Britain. Maybe those complaining about abuse & ridicule should try living in Russia, Poland, Hungary, Lithuania, Nigeria, Iran, Iraq, Saudi etc for a while and let us know how wonderfully tolerant and accepting those countries are? Anyway, zero Fs given about trans issues. I must've stumbled on to the wrong site.... I was looking for car stuff.
Edited by Romford4 on Thursday 24th June 23:59
Gecko1978 said:
No one can truely believe she doesn't know she has an advantage given her history in the sport. Perhaps for her its a rebirth i.e. she always wanted to be a women and thus this is her chance to live that dream / goal. I get that to an extent but ahe will know 100% she is taking glory from female competitors and doesn't care. That makes her a bad sports women. Ben Johnson in a leotard, Lance Armstrong etc.
In this case, I do find it hard to comprehend how she herself can feel justified in competing. The IOC really need to get a grip of this issue.
MC Bodge said:
In this case, I do find it hard to comprehend how she herself can feel justified in competing.
The IOC really need to get a grip of this issue.
IOC should listen to former top women athletes like Sharron Davies and Paula Radcliffe.The IOC really need to get a grip of this issue.
Both of whom eloquently stand up for women's rights in sport
Gecko1978 said:
I am not sure sport in any respect undermines rights given the above posters agree there is "no right to entry". Rules are rules currently Laurel Hubbard (the theead is about her not wider trans community) falls within the rules. As I stated before unless she is mentally ill she will be fully aware she has an advantage. She lifted weights till 2001 as a male competitively without sucess she would have been in her 20s at her prime then, she would have been aware she was in her prime. Then 2012 she transitioned and went back to lifting, she was still not competitive in the male category (expected given she would have undergone hormonal treatment and also she was never top flight as a male but she was very strong). As a women she starts lifting 20 years past her prime.
No one can truely believe she doesn't know she has an advantage given her history in the sport. Perhaps for her its a rebirth i.e. she always wanted to be a women and thus this is her chance to live that dream / goal. I get that to an extent but ahe will know 100% she is taking glory from female competitors and doesn't care. That makes her a bad sports women. Ben Johnson in a leotard, Lance Armstrong etc.
Whilst I largely agree with your post, there are a couple of points I take issue with. In 1998, Hubbard set three national New Zealand records in the M105 class as a junior man, so that was not without success.No one can truely believe she doesn't know she has an advantage given her history in the sport. Perhaps for her its a rebirth i.e. she always wanted to be a women and thus this is her chance to live that dream / goal. I get that to an extent but ahe will know 100% she is taking glory from female competitors and doesn't care. That makes her a bad sports women. Ben Johnson in a leotard, Lance Armstrong etc.
To name Ben Johnson as a cheat completely ignores the fact that Carl Lewis, who was awarded the gold medal for that race, actually failed three drug test in the runup to the Seoul Olympics, which were covered up by the UST&F.
alfaman said:
IOC should listen to former top women athletes like Sharron Davies and Paula Radcliffe.
Both of whom eloquently stand up for women's rights in sport
The IOC's decision making in 2015, was completely influenced by a deeply flawed report by this person - Joanna Harper, a trans rights activist.Both of whom eloquently stand up for women's rights in sport
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/07/scientist-...
https://medium.com/@Antonia_Lee/the-iocs-transgend...
chrispmartha said:
gregs656 said:
I don’t think ‘whatever’ is necessarily problematic.
I mean, no one has ‘a right’ to compete at the olympics. Every who is there has earned it, and there are disqualifying criteria for everyone.
I personally do not think it undermines trans rights, as in, the legal right to live as your gender, have it legally recognised and be protected from social discrimination, to accept that at elite levels of competition it is a barrier to entry.
Perhaps as we learn more, and as we have transgender athletes who ever went through male or female puberty start to come onto the scene this can be teased out some more, but as it stands I don’t think it undermines trans gender rights.
What, potentially, does undermine transgender rights in the long term is fighting so many fronts simultaneously when the social conscience has not caught up.
I think this is a great post and sums up my thoughts on it, you’ve probably just worded it better than I have.I mean, no one has ‘a right’ to compete at the olympics. Every who is there has earned it, and there are disqualifying criteria for everyone.
I personally do not think it undermines trans rights, as in, the legal right to live as your gender, have it legally recognised and be protected from social discrimination, to accept that at elite levels of competition it is a barrier to entry.
Perhaps as we learn more, and as we have transgender athletes who ever went through male or female puberty start to come onto the scene this can be teased out some more, but as it stands I don’t think it undermines trans gender rights.
What, potentially, does undermine transgender rights in the long term is fighting so many fronts simultaneously when the social conscience has not caught up.
"We need to learn more".
People born male will have a huge advantage over people born female. No amount of 'learning' is going to change that.
Are you seriously suggesting people who transition before puberty could possibly compete?
So people who transition in their 20s aren't woman enough to compete but people who transition at 11 are?
There are some good points though. Nobody has a right to compete. The obvious issue though, is you won't get selected if you're not good enough. A 43 year old woman who didn't lift professionally from 2001- 2014 or whatever it was wouldn't stand a chance. Hubbard can do it because they were born male.
Edited by RobbieTheTruth on Friday 25th June 12:54
Gecko1978 said:
We have been debating this for a while now but I think I have come up with a simple test to solve it.
At birth would it be assumed the athlete could have children 1 day. If yes then they can have access to female sport subject later to any additional testing should it be deemed necessary, if the answer is no then you can't play in female tournaments.
So caster semina would have been able to compete up untill she went for further tests. Laurel Hubbard never.
What happens if you're born without a uterus?At birth would it be assumed the athlete could have children 1 day. If yes then they can have access to female sport subject later to any additional testing should it be deemed necessary, if the answer is no then you can't play in female tournaments.
So caster semina would have been able to compete up untill she went for further tests. Laurel Hubbard never.
RobbieTheTruth said:
chrispmartha said:
gregs656 said:
I don’t think ‘whatever’ is necessarily problematic.
I mean, no one has ‘a right’ to compete at the olympics. Every who is there has earned it, and there are disqualifying criteria for everyone.
I personally do not think it undermines trans rights, as in, the legal right to live as your gender, have it legally recognised and be protected from social discrimination, to accept that at elite levels of competition it is a barrier to entry.
Perhaps as we learn more, and as we have transgender athletes who ever went through male or female puberty start to come onto the scene this can be teased out some more, but as it stands I don’t think it undermines trans gender rights.
What, potentially, does undermine transgender rights in the long term is fighting so many fronts simultaneously when the social conscience has not caught up.
I think this is a great post and sums up my thoughts on it, you’ve probably just worded it better than I have.I mean, no one has ‘a right’ to compete at the olympics. Every who is there has earned it, and there are disqualifying criteria for everyone.
I personally do not think it undermines trans rights, as in, the legal right to live as your gender, have it legally recognised and be protected from social discrimination, to accept that at elite levels of competition it is a barrier to entry.
Perhaps as we learn more, and as we have transgender athletes who ever went through male or female puberty start to come onto the scene this can be teased out some more, but as it stands I don’t think it undermines trans gender rights.
What, potentially, does undermine transgender rights in the long term is fighting so many fronts simultaneously when the social conscience has not caught up.
"We need to learn more".
People born male will have a huge advantage over people born female. No amount of 'learning' is going to change that.
Are you seriously suggesting people who transition before puberty could possibly compete?
So people who transition in their 20s aren't woman enough to compete but people who transition at 11 are?
There are some good points though. Nobody has a right to compete. The obvious issue though, is you won't get selected if you're not good enough. A 43 year old woman who didn't lift professionally from 2001- 2014 or whatever it was wouldn't stand a chance. Hubbard can do it because they were born male.
Edited by RobbieTheTruth on Friday 25th June 12:54
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