CV19 - Cure worse than the disease? (Vol 13)

[mondeoman]

V88Dicky said:

Obsolete Driver said:

Vulnerable People of every age have died with covid, vulnerable people of every age have suffered with covid. The likelihood is magnitudes less with healthy younger ages yes, but claiming no benefit from the vaccine is incorrect.

FTFY

FTFY

[Nickgnome]

Twinfan said:

Nickgnome said:

So there is your flaw. Not Maths but basic data which you do not accept.

You really need to learn consistency to further your case.

I really enjoyed my expert witness stuff. I wonder why.

I accept the data in that report no problem.

What I don't accept is you extrapolating it to a blanket 50% reduction full stop. Or where you're getting the 20% that you also quote from.

Edited by Twinfan on Thursday 24th June 22:30

Great, Let's try and move on.

It is important to take out all other variables just for this comparison.

A vaccinated person is 80% less likely to be infected according to the data and as more become available it is just confirming the number.

So they have a 20% chance of infection. This does assume the conditions are such that they would have been infected for definite ie 100% but that does not matter for the comparison because that will be constant for the particular situation.

Then data has shown that a vaccinated person's transmitability reduces by about 50%. There is actually a range I think 38% to 60% ish. But again as more double vaccinated people go into the survey it is just reinforcing that approximate reduction.

If people are outside then all of this will matter little but in say a bar, nightclub or confined space these numbers are really important.

What I am saying is the other probability impacts are separate and can be overlaid for each case. At one end of the scae ie outside the vaccination is less important but anywhere else and the reductions are really important to control spread. Hence the summer winter variations possibly.

[steveT350C]

A thank you to Elysium.... and to everyone here who opens their hearts and searches for the truth;

Put your headphones, turn it up loud, and give this a listen..

It’s a recently released house music track that, as a DJ, sums it up for me. It’s called Marea (we lost dancing)...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DjmKjINRVwo

[tigamilla]

steveT350C said:

A thank you to Elysium.... and to everyone here who opens their hearts and searches for the truth;

Put your headphones, turn it up loud, and give this a listen..

It’s a recently released house music track that, as a DJ, sums it up for me. It’s called Marea (we lost dancing)...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DjmKjINRVwo

Thank you, added to favorites (assuming Youtube doesn't censor it)!

[pocty]

steveT350C said:

A thank you to Elysium.... and to everyone here who opens their hearts and searches for the truth;

Put your headphones, turn it up loud, and give this a listen..

It’s a recently released house music track that, as a DJ, sums it up for me. It’s called Marea (we lost dancing)...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DjmKjINRVwo

Great track

Thanks I needed that.

[RanchoGrande]

tigamilla said:

Spot on sir

Indeed.

[Bikesalot]

Is the amber list, no quarantine and double vaccinated the start of vaccine passports?

Someone of question time said they didn’t understand the amber list, it’s either safe to go to it isn’t.

As someone in their 20s with years left to ‘pay into the system’ I’m starting to feel a bit frustrated about it all.

[Boringvolvodriver]

Bikesalot said:

Is the amber list, no quarantine and double vaccinated the start of vaccine passports?

Someone of question time said they didn’t understand the amber list, it’s either safe to go to it isn’t.

As someone in their 20s with years left to ‘pay into the system’ I’m starting to feel a bit frustrated about it all.

Kinda looks that way, I would say. However, given past performance, it is more like a carrot to get more of the younger ones vaccinated with the promise of easier travel.

I could be wrong but watch out for a back track in a few weeks once you have all been jabbed up!

I am seriously questioning why the heck the want every man, woman child and pet to be vaccinated when there isn’t the justification for it based on the risk of serious illness in the younger cohort.

[Andy888]

steveT350C said:

A thank you to Elysium.... and to everyone here who opens their hearts and searches for the truth;

Put your headphones, turn it up loud, and give this a listen..

It’s a recently released house music track that, as a DJ, sums it up for me. It’s called Marea (we lost dancing)...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DjmKjINRVwo

I’m imagining that as the backing track to footage of Hancock, Whitty and Valance getting paraded off in cuffs.

[alfaracer85]

Elysium said:

Some people might think this is a bit of an 'extreme' post, but I want to get this off my chest.

The people who blithely tell us that they are entirely happy with lockdowns and that we should stop whinging and simply do as we are told seem to believe that they are on the moral high ground.

I think they have abandoned all morality.

I see lockdown as an act of aggression. A direct attack on the welfare of my family and the people I care about. It's proponents did not give a moments thought to the stupidity of lockdown, it's inherent unfairness or the damage and despair that it has caused. They care nothing for its long term impact or the many ways that it has changed our society for the worse.

Lockdown is the action of a totalitarian state. Neil Ferguson famously said that no one believed we would accept the sort of authoritarian control that China used to stamp down on COVID at the expense of its people. And we should not have accepted it.

I can forgive people who went along with it at first when we didn't know what we were dealing with. If it had been airborne ebola than perhaps our response might have made sense. But its not. It is a stty little virus that ruthlessly attacks the most vulnerable in society, whilst causing little real trouble to everyone else.

The people who continue to cheer on restrictions now that the vulnerable are vaccinated do not deserve any respect. They are selfish immoral cowards who have inverted everything that this country stood for. They have torched our democratic history and they threaten our childrens future.

I think that slowly, inexorably, the truth of this will begin to emerge. To the point that, eventually, everyone will claim to have opposed lockdown. Sadly this was not the case. Its proponents are guilty of an unimaginative, stupid, banal evil and I very much hope to see the worst offenders stand trial for what I believe is a crime against humanity.

I don't think these views are strange. I think it is strange that so many people do not share them. That their inner morality is a fleeting, mishapen thing that they are willing to twist and contort. So that they can convince themselves that just about anything is acceptable, provided that they perceive it to be in their own selfish interests.

I am sorry if this offends anyone, but it is my deeply held belief. I will not easily forgive the states appalling intrusion in our private family lives over the last 16 months. Things have been taken from us that can never be replaced and I hope there will be a steep price to pay by those responsible.

Edited by Elysium on Thursday 24th June 21:01

In years of reading these forums I've never agreed with anything more than the above, quite literally taken the words out of my mouth.

[FazerBoy]

mondeoman said:

vonuber said:

Actually to be fair, wearing a mask on the tube has stopped all the black st that ends up in your nose after every trip.

Racist

[foreright]

alfaracer85 said:

Elysium said:

Some people might think this is a bit of an 'extreme' post, but I want to get this off my chest.

The people who blithely tell us that they are entirely happy with lockdowns and that we should stop whinging and simply do as we are told seem to believe that they are on the moral high ground.

I think they have abandoned all morality.

I see lockdown as an act of aggression. A direct attack on the welfare of my family and the people I care about. It's proponents did not give a moments thought to the stupidity of lockdown, it's inherent unfairness or the damage and despair that it has caused. They care nothing for its long term impact or the many ways that it has changed our society for the worse.

Lockdown is the action of a totalitarian state. Neil Ferguson famously said that no one believed we would accept the sort of authoritarian control that China used to stamp down on COVID at the expense of its people. And we should not have accepted it.

I can forgive people who went along with it at first when we didn't know what we were dealing with. If it had been airborne ebola than perhaps our response might have made sense. But its not. It is a stty little virus that ruthlessly attacks the most vulnerable in society, whilst causing little real trouble to everyone else.

The people who continue to cheer on restrictions now that the vulnerable are vaccinated do not deserve any respect. They are selfish immoral cowards who have inverted everything that this country stood for. They have torched our democratic history and they threaten our childrens future.

I think that slowly, inexorably, the truth of this will begin to emerge. To the point that, eventually, everyone will claim to have opposed lockdown. Sadly this was not the case. Its proponents are guilty of an unimaginative, stupid, banal evil and I very much hope to see the worst offenders stand trial for what I believe is a crime against humanity.

I don't think these views are strange. I think it is strange that so many people do not share them. That their inner morality is a fleeting, mishapen thing that they are willing to twist and contort. So that they can convince themselves that just about anything is acceptable, provided that they perceive it to be in their own selfish interests.

I am sorry if this offends anyone, but it is my deeply held belief. I will not easily forgive the states appalling intrusion in our private family lives over the last 16 months. Things have been taken from us that can never be replaced and I hope there will be a steep price to pay by those responsible.

Edited by Elysium on Thursday 24th June 21:01

In years of reading these forums I've never agreed with anything more than the above, quite literally taken the words out of my mouth.

Can’t see anything extreme there - completely agree with all of that.

[DukeDickson]

77th Brigade said:

Businesses against vaccine passports:
https://againstvaccinepassports.com/

Problem is, that's going to be no more than a gaggle of sole traders, pubs and the odd left field SME (opposite of nutty plumber).

Whether anyone thinks it is right or wrong, all of the bigger & genuinely large businesses would run a country mile.

[DukeDickson]

steveT350C said:

A thank you to Elysium.... and to everyone here who opens their hearts and searches for the truth;

Put your headphones, turn it up loud, and give this a listen..

It’s a recently released house music track that, as a DJ, sums it up for me. It’s called Marea (we lost dancing)...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DjmKjINRVwo

I always thought this was the song of the moment, even if about something else (will listen to yours another time):

https://youtu.be/M_o6axAseak

[Only_old_normal]

I won’t quote it all (again), but Elysium absolutely nails it. Bravo.

[johnboy1975]

Bikesalot said:

Is the amber list, no quarantine and double vaccinated the start of vaccine passports?

Someone of question time said they didn’t understand the amber list, it’s either safe to go to it isn’t.

As someone in their 20s with years left to ‘pay into the system’ I’m starting to feel a bit frustrated about it all.

Pretty much.

The Amber list indeed made no sense. However, we were missing the final piece of the Jigsaw (vaccine passports). Of course Boris knew all along, so it made perfect sense to him.

For clarity, is this blindingly obvious, or a conspiracy theory? So hard to tell these days

And a question: Does standing up in the HoC to say "we have no plans to introduce vaccine passports" (whilst furiously working out the finer details) constitute misleading the house? There's a few cruelty of that offence if so...

And what happened to the speaker getting cross about someone (Boris?) misleading him / the HoC last week?

[johnboy1975]

Nickgnome said:

Great, Let's try and move on.

It is important to take out all other variables just for this comparison.

A vaccinated person is 80% less likely to be infected according to the data and as more become available it is just confirming the number.

So they have a 20% chance of infection. This does assume the conditions are such that they would have been infected for definite ie 100% but that does not matter for the comparison because that will be constant for the particular situation.

I think this is where you are going wrong. 80% less (I thought this was 50%?? But we will use your numbers).

But its 80% less than 1%-5% depending on the study and/ot the environment.

So unvaccinated its 1% say. Vaccinated its 0.2%.

So a 0.8% drop in reality. Which is smaller than the 80% headline figure

I think

And if it was 100% as per your kissing scenario, I think it would be 100% for the vaccinated person too. Or at least they would test positive. And possibly be "infectious".

I think

[Obsolete Driver]

Has Elysium gone into meltdown? He used to be so sensible.

[dmahon]

I don’t think I’ve ever woke up to better news! Matt Hancock caught doing the dirty on his wife! Couldn’t happen to a nicer person!

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15388014/matt-hancoc...

“He was seen kissing her at the Department of Health’s London HQ during office hours last month as the mutant strain began spreading.”

Tut tut tut...

Edited by dmahon on Friday 25th June 05:31

[PBCD]

Obsolete Driver said:

Has Elysium gone into meltdown? He used to be so sensible.

Can you blame him after 15 months of government/media fearmongering and disproportionate, punitive restrictions??