Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 3)
Discussion
heebeegeetee said:
If Sway is correct, and essentially little has changed that can be attributed to Brexit, has Britain then got a very poor class of business owners, because there seems to be enough prepared to name themselves and list the problems they're having.
The Guardian: ‘What have we done?’: six years on, UK counts the cost of Brexit.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/25/w...
Sway knows what he’s talking about and is obviously a large value add on this thread but he’s not without bias as I know he has admitted more than once. Unlike some other brexiters he’s much more measured in defending the government’s approach.The Guardian: ‘What have we done?’: six years on, UK counts the cost of Brexit.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/25/w...
There does seem to be a developing theme on a lot of brexit reporting whether pro or anti that it’s not going great. The differences often revolve around who’s to blame rather than whether expectations were realistic in the first place. Many are looking for a culprit, they should look inwards rather than outwards.
Bloody hell Sway, it’s only taken you six yrs, but I think, I *think* you have finally got a few of them to accept that some of us actually know what we are talking about and have just a touch of experience!
With the above in mind, I will also give just a snippet on the news linked in earlier about Horizon and Copernicus etc. It both is and isn’t true, actually it’s a lot more nuanced in many ways. What IS true though is that the UK space industry is currently in astonishingly rude health, one might even say booming. It most definitely isn’t locked out of Copernicus.
I will merely smile at the Airbus stuff though
There is a s
tload of opportunity out there at the moment, frankly it’s a little crazy what is available. But the old ways are gone yes.
With the above in mind, I will also give just a snippet on the news linked in earlier about Horizon and Copernicus etc. It both is and isn’t true, actually it’s a lot more nuanced in many ways. What IS true though is that the UK space industry is currently in astonishingly rude health, one might even say booming. It most definitely isn’t locked out of Copernicus.
I will merely smile at the Airbus stuff though
There is a s
tload of opportunity out there at the moment, frankly it’s a little crazy what is available. But the old ways are gone yes. Edited by DeejRC on Sunday 26th June 13:24
Nah, I just Google and make it up as I go along...
The amusing thing (as you're well aware), is just at the point I could be absolutely raking it in consulting/advising/fixing a bunch of this stuff for businesses, I've decided to take a career 'diversion' into an area where I experience imposter syndrome every single day and am completely out of my depth.
Ah well, I've never done a job for the money.
The amusing thing (as you're well aware), is just at the point I could be absolutely raking it in consulting/advising/fixing a bunch of this stuff for businesses, I've decided to take a career 'diversion' into an area where I experience imposter syndrome every single day and am completely out of my depth.
Ah well, I've never done a job for the money.
DeejRC said:
Bloody hell Sway, it’s only taken you six yrs, but I think, I *think* you have finally got a few of them to accept that some of us actually know what we are talking about and have just a touch of experience!
With the above in mind, I will also give just a snippet on the news linked in earlier about Horizon and Copernicus etc. It both is and isn’t true, actually it’s a lot more nuanced in many ways. What IS true though is that the UK space industry is currently in astonishingly rude health, one might even say booming. It most definitely isn’t locked out of Copernicus.
I will merely smile at the Airbus stuff though
There is a stload of opportunity out there at the moment, frankly it’s a little crazy what is available. But the old ways are gone yes.
Lol, what’s this with assuming “us” when referring to Sway, I certainly didn’t tag you, I’ll ask when I need more funny stories about goats. Obviously I’m joking. But as long as I’m “them” I’m happy in most situations.With the above in mind, I will also give just a snippet on the news linked in earlier about Horizon and Copernicus etc. It both is and isn’t true, actually it’s a lot more nuanced in many ways. What IS true though is that the UK space industry is currently in astonishingly rude health, one might even say booming. It most definitely isn’t locked out of Copernicus.
I will merely smile at the Airbus stuff though
There is a s
tload of opportunity out there at the moment, frankly it’s a little crazy what is available. But the old ways are gone yes. Edited by DeejRC on Sunday 26th June 13:24
The science funding side does interest me if only out of interest rather than any work material affect, it would take a hell of a lot to convince me brexit has improved things at this stage but not as much to suggest that opportunities are still available and not locked out. I can do marketing spin too even if I seem to be public enemy number one for our marketing team, yip I’m “them”.
I gave up replying vaguely seriously months ago Rog, it wasn’t worth it. Sway, myself and a cpl of others have given chapter and verse on various aspects of manufacturing goods, engineering, importing, exporting, customs etc etc over the yrs on this and the Euro thread. Sway has vastly more patience than I do, which is pretty much zero.
So you get goats instead.
So you get goats instead.
DeejRC said:
I gave up replying vaguely seriously months ago Rog, it wasn’t worth it. Sway, myself and a cpl of others have given chapter and verse on various aspects of manufacturing goods, engineering, importing, exporting, customs etc etc over the yrs on this and the Euro thread. Sway has vastly more patience than I do, which is pretty much zero.
So you get goats instead.
Yeah well, you get my goat sometimes, you may even get my goat up on occasion, but thankfully I don't own any goats.So you get goats instead.
Sway said:
Why would there be duties on British made goods?
'Admin costs' are tiny. I've mentioned repeatedly how much global trade (inbound and outbound) we manage with a tiny overhead...
Oh do stop being disingenuous. In a global world, UK firms imported goods for re-sale across Europe, or had goods manufactured overseas.'Admin costs' are tiny. I've mentioned repeatedly how much global trade (inbound and outbound) we manage with a tiny overhead...
Those goods are not UK-made for the purposes of the FTA.
Where such goods attract duty, it is pretty much unsustainable to carry on as before; they must be landed directly in the EU to avoid crippling costs.
You know this, of course, but you keep ignoring it. Trade - as opposed to manufacturing for export - has been very deeply damaged by Brexit.
skwdenyer said:
Sway said:
Why would there be duties on British made goods?
'Admin costs' are tiny. I've mentioned repeatedly how much global trade (inbound and outbound) we manage with a tiny overhead...
Oh do stop being disingenuous. In a global world, UK firms imported goods for re-sale across Europe, or had goods manufactured overseas.'Admin costs' are tiny. I've mentioned repeatedly how much global trade (inbound and outbound) we manage with a tiny overhead...
Those goods are not UK-made for the purposes of the FTA.
Where such goods attract duty, it is pretty much unsustainable to carry on as before; they must be landed directly in the EU to avoid crippling costs.
You know this, of course, but you keep ignoring it. Trade - as opposed to manufacturing for export - has been very deeply damaged by Brexit.
If they are British owned companies now selling direct from the EU, then profits are being repatriated, whilst there is a reduction in the excessive transport being involved.
So yes, I do ignore it - as it's pretty much irrelevant. The amount of employment and value add to the UK for repackaging and reselling is bugger all in the scheme of things. Low value jobs, and low value business.
Sway said:
Resale adds zero value. Hence why they are outside of the FTA. Especially when the vast, vast majority of shipping routes will pass through Rotterdam for onward movement to the UK.
If they are British owned companies now selling direct from the EU, then profits are being repatriated, whilst there is a reduction in the excessive transport being involved.
But are they not also employing EU workers instead of British, and paying taxes to elsewhere too instead of UK, just simply to continue doing as before? If they are British owned companies now selling direct from the EU, then profits are being repatriated, whilst there is a reduction in the excessive transport being involved.
heebeegeetee said:
Sway said:
Resale adds zero value. Hence why they are outside of the FTA. Especially when the vast, vast majority of shipping routes will pass through Rotterdam for onward movement to the UK.
If they are British owned companies now selling direct from the EU, then profits are being repatriated, whilst there is a reduction in the excessive transport being involved.
But are they not also employing EU workers instead of British, and paying taxes to elsewhere too instead of UK, just simply to continue doing as before? If they are British owned companies now selling direct from the EU, then profits are being repatriated, whilst there is a reduction in the excessive transport being involved.
Reboxing stuff isn't exactly a skilled or well paid job. Those doing it aren't exactly filling the coffers of the Exchequer with taxes.
There is of course the flip side - which is resellers in continental Europe are now locating their UK market distribution in the UK - and as we're a net importer that's always by definition going to end up being a positive for the UK if you want to see it that way.
I've spent my career helping businesses get rid of that low value employment. Not to lay it off, but to reskill it into higher value add (and therefore higher salaries and higher tax revenue).
So, I personally don't see it as a 'win' - but if you do for every UK company shouting there's a new warehouse setup in the EU, there's 1.5 EU companies quietly seeing up a new warehousing operation here. That might well be why warehousing space has gone through the roof in costs and demand...
Sway said:
heebeegeetee said:
Sway said:
Resale adds zero value. Hence why they are outside of the FTA. Especially when the vast, vast majority of shipping routes will pass through Rotterdam for onward movement to the UK.
If they are British owned companies now selling direct from the EU, then profits are being repatriated, whilst there is a reduction in the excessive transport being involved.
But are they not also employing EU workers instead of British, and paying taxes to elsewhere too instead of UK, just simply to continue doing as before? If they are British owned companies now selling direct from the EU, then profits are being repatriated, whilst there is a reduction in the excessive transport being involved.
Reboxing stuff isn't exactly a skilled or well paid job. Those doing it aren't exactly filling the coffers of the Exchequer with taxes.
There is of course the flip side - which is resellers in continental Europe are now locating their UK market distribution in the UK - and as we're a net importer that's always by definition going to end up being a positive for the UK if you want to see it that way.
I've spent my career helping businesses get rid of that low value employment. Not to lay it off, but to reskill it into higher value add (and therefore higher salaries and higher tax revenue).
So, I personally don't see it as a 'win' - but if you do for every UK company shouting there's a new warehouse setup in the EU, there's 1.5 EU companies quietly seeing up a new warehousing operation here. That might well be why warehousing space has gone through the roof in costs and demand...
Sway said:
They are, and they're welcome to it.
Reboxing stuff isn't exactly a skilled or well paid job. Those doing it aren't exactly filling the coffers of the Exchequer with taxes.
There is of course the flip side - which is resellers in continental Europe are now locating their UK market distribution in the UK - and as we're a net importer that's always by definition going to end up being a positive for the UK if you want to see it that way.
I've spent my career helping businesses get rid of that low value employment. Not to lay it off, but to reskill it into higher value add (and therefore higher salaries and higher tax revenue).
So, I personally don't see it as a 'win' - but if you do for every UK company shouting there's a new warehouse setup in the EU, there's 1.5 EU companies quietly seeing up a new warehousing operation here. That might well be why warehousing space has gone through the roof in costs and demand...
Fair enough, but does this mean some businesses are relocating to EU (to access 27 countries?) and some are relocating to UK (to access one?), and all this effort just to stand still? A lot of expense and time not spent on their core businesses, just to get themselves to where they were pre Brexit? Reboxing stuff isn't exactly a skilled or well paid job. Those doing it aren't exactly filling the coffers of the Exchequer with taxes.
There is of course the flip side - which is resellers in continental Europe are now locating their UK market distribution in the UK - and as we're a net importer that's always by definition going to end up being a positive for the UK if you want to see it that way.
I've spent my career helping businesses get rid of that low value employment. Not to lay it off, but to reskill it into higher value add (and therefore higher salaries and higher tax revenue).
So, I personally don't see it as a 'win' - but if you do for every UK company shouting there's a new warehouse setup in the EU, there's 1.5 EU companies quietly seeing up a new warehousing operation here. That might well be why warehousing space has gone through the roof in costs and demand...
heebeegeetee said:
Fair enough, but does this mean some businesses are relocating to EU (to access 27 countries?) and some are relocating to UK (to access one?), and all this effort just to stand still? A lot of expense and time not spent on their core businesses, just to get themselves to where they were pre Brexit?
Yes.Except these are their core businesses. They buy stuff in from low cost countries, and resell it 'locally'. Remember, the UK isn't 1/27 of the consumer spend of the EU...
What it does bring, is benefits in terms of transport miles, pollution/congestion/etc. Much of this stuff would go Roro at Dover, which is about the least resilient port on the planet. Only an abject idiot (i.e a politician) would site the hub for 'small/mixed load' goods movements UK-Continental EU there. The first thing I'd do for any firm I worked for was to ensure nothing went Dover-Calais, ever.
Sway said:
Resale adds zero value. Hence why they are outside of the FTA. Especially when the vast, vast majority of shipping routes will pass through Rotterdam for onward movement to the UK.
If they are British owned companies now selling direct from the EU, then profits are being repatriated, whilst there is a reduction in the excessive transport being involved.
So yes, I do ignore it - as it's pretty much irrelevant. The amount of employment and value add to the UK for repackaging and reselling is bugger all in the scheme of things. Low value jobs, and low value business.
Thank you Sway by just making assumptions.If they are British owned companies now selling direct from the EU, then profits are being repatriated, whilst there is a reduction in the excessive transport being involved.
So yes, I do ignore it - as it's pretty much irrelevant. The amount of employment and value add to the UK for repackaging and reselling is bugger all in the scheme of things. Low value jobs, and low value business.
We’re a fashion business. You’ve just dismissed the entire fashion industry, a major UK success story.
As a result of Brexit, all that turnover now avoids the UK. Furthermore, we’re going to start moving the high value jobs (design, garment tech, marketing, etc) out of the UK too, for a variety of reasons, not least of which the tax efficiency of spending where we earn. Critical mass moves quickly in an industry like ours.
And we’re not going to bother re-patriating profits to the UK - no point. Might was well just set up a holding company in Estonia, say.
But it's not 'the entire fashion industry' is it?
There's plenty of very high value, actually made in the UK fashion goods. From Northamptonshire cobblers through to Savile Row.
If your market was solely within Continental EU, then you'd have moved long ago - as it's cheaper and always was even in the EU. To suggest you're shifting all of that because of some warehousing and packing staff moves is palpable nonsense.
There's plenty of very high value, actually made in the UK fashion goods. From Northamptonshire cobblers through to Savile Row.
If your market was solely within Continental EU, then you'd have moved long ago - as it's cheaper and always was even in the EU. To suggest you're shifting all of that because of some warehousing and packing staff moves is palpable nonsense.
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