Boris Johnson-Prime Minister (Vol 8)

Boris Johnson-Prime Minister (Vol 8)

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Garvin

5,157 posts

176 months

Wednesday 25th May 2022
quotequote all
pghstochaj said:
Garvin said:
pghstochaj said:
Garvin said:
The eagerly anticipated Sue Gray report is proving something of an anti-climax and damp squib. There is really nothing new in it. The challenges in the HoC and calls for resignation are limited to previously known information rather than new killer relevations in the report and are reduced to desperate pleading with the Conservative MPs to submit more letters of non confidence. I’m beginning to suspect that, almost unbelievably, Boris is going to survive this!
Have you read it? I don't agree at all, it clearly shows that:

No. 10 was doing things it knew to be wrong (and covering it up).
BJ was at a party on 13 November 2020 which he previously denied. Photographs clearly show that it was not a work event, there is a lot of alcohol and he has a drink in his hand.
There were several rule breaking events that were allowed to go ahead by senior members of No. 10 and were not stopped, including BJ.

In a normal world, this would be the end of the PM. In this world, people still want to gaslight the public into pretending the obvious is not correct.
Yes, I read it all. Tell me what particular content wasn’t known before?
The detail for each of the events was provided, that had not been known before. The question of whether No. 10 knew it was breaking the rules or just stretching them has also been answered. It knew - and attempted to cover up what it was doing. We had not seen explicit evidence of that until now.
The detail is a bit irrelevant to the charges against Boris. There is more information about the inappropriate behaviour of staff during some of the events but, again, that is mostly irrelevant to the charges against Boris unless you conclude his leadership and management were not the greatest but we all knew that to be the case anyway. In respect of breaking rules we knew that anyway from the Met investigation. As for covering it up, where does the report state that things were actively covered up? Where does it unequivocally state Boris knew everything about everything and lied to Parliament?

Blackpuddin

16,411 posts

204 months

Wednesday 25th May 2022
quotequote all
Garvin said:
bhstewie said:
Garvin said:
The eagerly anticipated Sue Gray report is proving something of an anti-climax and damp squib. There is really nothing new in it. The challenges in the HoC and calls for resignation are limited to previously known information rather than new killer relevations in the report and are reduced to desperate pleading with the Conservative MPs to submit more letters of non confidence. I’m beginning to suspect that, almost unbelievably, Boris is going to survive this!
You can survive quite a lot if you have no integrity and simply refuse to go.

It's been said before that our political system was designed for people like Profumo (not old enough so before anyone picks me up on it my point is one of recognising when you've done wrong and doing the right thing) rather than the likes of Johnson.

If he had any integrity or decency he'd have gone already.
I expected more damnation to be heaped on Boris by the report and, as a result, a flood of ‘letters’ submitted by Conservative MPs leading to his ejection from office. I did not get the impression that is going to happen unless they were all rushing out of the chamber to write them.

Sir Beer Korma hehe did well at PMQs this morning, possibly for the first time, laying into Boris and the government, quite rightly, on cost of living, inflation, energy etc - these are the issues that will finally do for Boris . . . eventually.

We can have a great debate about Profumo. Be clear, he only resigned because he was caught (with his trousers down) and the party got rid of him. Lots of dedication to charitable work afterwards . . . but was that contrition or just trying to remain accepted in his ‘circles’?
Gray's job wasn't to heap more damnation on BJ but to confirm or deny that the damnation that had already been heaped on him, and that if proven should have been more than enough for a resignation, was appropriate. Her report was never going to contain 'shocking new revelations' as she is not the editor of a red top newspaper. It simply confirmed what we either already knew or suspected. Unfortunately his definition of 'taking full responsibility' appears to extend only as far as saying that he takes full responsibility. It doesn't go beyond that to the point where he actually packs his bags, which in the minds of most normal people would be the true definition of 'taking full responsibility'. I've no brief for Blackford but it's as he said: BJ's apologies were only made because he got caught. His attempts to mitigate what happened while protesting that he had no intention of mitigating what happened were pathetic.

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 25th May 2022
quotequote all
Blackpuddin said:
Gray's job wasn't to heap more damnation on BJ but to confirm or deny that the damnation that had already been heaped on him, and that if proven should have been more than enough for a resignation, was appropriate. Her report was never going to contain 'shocking new revelations' as she is not the editor of a red top newspaper. It simply confirmed what we either already knew or suspected. Unfortunately his definition of 'taking full responsibility' appears to extend only as far as saying that he takes full responsibility. It doesn't go beyond that to the point where he actually packs his bags, which in the minds of most normal people would be the true definition of 'taking full responsibility'. I've no brief for Blackford but it's as he said: BJ's apologies were only made because he got caught. His attempts to mitigate what happened while protesting that he had no intention of mitigating what happened were pathetic.
This. The Sue Gray report is actually quite damning, it suggests that No 10 did bloody well know that they were in breach of their own lockdown rules, hence requests that pissed up members of staff exit via the back door so they weren't so noticeable. It also notes that a culture whereby no one could blow the whistle on said breaches existed and that security staff and cleaners were abused for raising concerns.

bitchstewie

50,791 posts

209 months

Wednesday 25th May 2022
quotequote all
Garvin said:
I expected more damnation to be heaped on Boris by the report and, as a result, a flood of ‘letters’ submitted by Conservative MPs leading to his ejection from office. I did not get the impression that is going to happen unless they were all rushing out of the chamber to write them.

Sir Beer Korma hehe did well at PMQs this morning, possibly for the first time, laying into Boris and the government, quite rightly, on cost of living, inflation, energy etc - these are the issues that will finally do for Boris . . . eventually.

We can have a great debate about Profumo. Be clear, he only resigned because he was caught (with his trousers down) and the party got rid of him. Lots of dedication to charitable work afterwards . . . but was that contrition or just trying to remain accepted in his ‘circles’?
The report makes it clear that his insistence that the guidance was followed at all times was a lie.

When Ellwood is openly asking his own colleagues "Are you willing, day in and day out, to defend this behaviour publicly?" you know some people have a shred of decency left even if Johnson and his apologists don't.

My guess is that Johnson may have survived today but he's done his party damage that will be very difficult to repair.

Blackpuddin

16,411 posts

204 months

Wednesday 25th May 2022
quotequote all
bhstewie said:
Garvin said:
I expected more damnation to be heaped on Boris by the report and, as a result, a flood of ‘letters’ submitted by Conservative MPs leading to his ejection from office. I did not get the impression that is going to happen unless they were all rushing out of the chamber to write them.

Sir Beer Korma hehe did well at PMQs this morning, possibly for the first time, laying into Boris and the government, quite rightly, on cost of living, inflation, energy etc - these are the issues that will finally do for Boris . . . eventually.

We can have a great debate about Profumo. Be clear, he only resigned because he was caught (with his trousers down) and the party got rid of him. Lots of dedication to charitable work afterwards . . . but was that contrition or just trying to remain accepted in his ‘circles’?
The report makes it clear that his insistence that the guidance was followed at all times was a lie.

When Ellwood is openly asking his own colleagues "Are you willing, day in and day out, to defend this behaviour publicly?" you know some people have a shred of decency left even if Johnson and his apologists don't.

My guess is that Johnson may have survived today but he's done his party damage that will be very difficult to repair.
Sadly I don't think it will be that difficult as politicians of every stripe think they can safely rely on a winning combination of the public's short memory (as they see it) and their own brazenness. We congratulate ourselves for living in a democracy and on being able to question those in power but when those in power simply ignore the questions we're no better off than the Russians.

bitchstewie

50,791 posts

209 months

Wednesday 25th May 2022
quotequote all
Good to see the public believe the apology and think he should stay in post.




rampageturke

2,622 posts

161 months

Wednesday 25th May 2022
quotequote all
I don't think he knowingly lied.

I know he did.

Garvin

5,157 posts

176 months

Wednesday 25th May 2022
quotequote all
Blackpuddin said:
bhstewie said:
Garvin said:
I expected more damnation to be heaped on Boris by the report and, as a result, a flood of ‘letters’ submitted by Conservative MPs leading to his ejection from office. I did not get the impression that is going to happen unless they were all rushing out of the chamber to write them.

Sir Beer Korma hehe did well at PMQs this morning, possibly for the first time, laying into Boris and the government, quite rightly, on cost of living, inflation, energy etc - these are the issues that will finally do for Boris . . . eventually.

We can have a great debate about Profumo. Be clear, he only resigned because he was caught (with his trousers down) and the party got rid of him. Lots of dedication to charitable work afterwards . . . but was that contrition or just trying to remain accepted in his ‘circles’?
The report makes it clear that his insistence that the guidance was followed at all times was a lie.

When Ellwood is openly asking his own colleagues "Are you willing, day in and day out, to defend this behaviour publicly?" you know some people have a shred of decency left even if Johnson and his apologists don't.

My guess is that Johnson may have survived today but he's done his party damage that will be very difficult to repair.
Sadly I don't think it will be that difficult as politicians of every stripe think they can safely rely on a winning combination of the public's short memory (as they see it) and their own brazenness. We congratulate ourselves for living in a democracy and on being able to question those in power but when those in power simply ignore the questions we're no better off than the Russians.
The great unwashed don’t care half as much as some here think they do about all this. What they do get vexed about is their pockets being hurt, and hurt they most certainly will be over the next six months and more. Rishi is going to have to come up with the equivalent of Furlough Mk2 and quick if Boris’s backside is to be saved. I cannot, however, see how he can possibly do this and keep the true Conservative MPs on side. It’s now just a matter of time.

As for being no better off than the Russians that is, of course, just hyperbole. Boris can be insulted to the high heavens and nobody, well at least not yet, gets dragged off to the Gulag and we’re half way to the next GE where the great British public can, if they so wish, consign Boris to oblivion, if he’s still PM at that time.

Rufus Stone

6,069 posts

55 months

Wednesday 25th May 2022
quotequote all
bhstewie said:
Good to see the public believe the apology and think he should stay in post.



Interesting. 51% of Tory voters think he knowingly lied to parliament yet only half of them think he should resign for doing do.

Carl_Manchester

12,103 posts

261 months

Wednesday 25th May 2022
quotequote all
bhstewie said:
Good to see the public believe the apology and think he should stay in post.
I am not sure, infact, i am pretty sure that 'the public' have not had the inclination to read Sue Gray's report and have had time to soak it in.

This is the BJ thread and I don't want to veer it off topic but the section about how the cleaners were treated is so damning that I am shocked to read it.

Should i be shocked? Well, as much as i did not like her political position on some things, I can't imagine that type of behaviour happenining under the nose of Theresea May's number 10 team.

I can't really express how sad it is to read some of this stuff in the report and I would expect that once the reality has set in, I don't think theres any coming back from this, even if he stays in number 10.

S17Thumper

4,226 posts

185 months

Wednesday 25th May 2022
quotequote all
I’d quite like him just to go ‘fk it, lets have a general election!’


I’m not brave enough to put money on the result.

Boringvolvodriver

8,631 posts

42 months

Wednesday 25th May 2022
quotequote all
S17Thumper said:
I’d quite like him just to go ‘fk it, lets have a general election!’


I’m not brave enough to put money on the result.
Even Johnson isn't that stupid! It would be interesting for sure

Randy Winkman

16,021 posts

188 months

Wednesday 25th May 2022
quotequote all
London424 said:
bhstewie said:
Byker28i said:
Why are the photos redacted apart from Boris. Why aren't the people in those photos identifiable.
Because Gray determined it was appropriate to identify Ministers and senior officials.

Tend to agree that it's not fair to identify junior civil servants some of whom were doing what their bosses had asked them to do and who were fined for attending events their bosses organised and Johnson attended whilst he smirks and tells everyone he thought he was at a work event.
If you’ve worked in any decent sized office you’ll know that senior people don’t organise anything. They also aren’t wanted at any gatherings apart from sticking credit cards behind bars and will be home in bed long before the youngsters.
Of course that's the case. But in this instance they knew the parties were happening and being the civil service, must have given the OK. Junior civil servants simply wouldn't have organised events that contravened the rules without getting clearance to do so.

808 Estate

2,079 posts

90 months

Wednesday 25th May 2022
quotequote all
TriumphStag3.0V8 said:
Quite impressed by Tobias Ellwood's words during PMQ. Setting his stall out for a leadership bid?
He is one of the few with decent morals and that I would actually trust.

ddom

6,657 posts

47 months

Wednesday 25th May 2022
quotequote all
Mumble, mumble, war, mumble, coat of living, mumble, sorry, mumble, mumble….

What a sorry example of a PM.

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 25th May 2022
quotequote all
ddom said:
Mumble, mumble, war, mumble, coat of living, mumble, sorry, mumble, mumble….

What a sorry example of a PM.
Didn’t he mention vaccination rollout?

pghstochaj

2,400 posts

118 months

Wednesday 25th May 2022
quotequote all
Randy Winkman said:
London424 said:
bhstewie said:
Byker28i said:
Why are the photos redacted apart from Boris. Why aren't the people in those photos identifiable.
Because Gray determined it was appropriate to identify Ministers and senior officials.

Tend to agree that it's not fair to identify junior civil servants some of whom were doing what their bosses had asked them to do and who were fined for attending events their bosses organised and Johnson attended whilst he smirks and tells everyone he thought he was at a work event.
If you’ve worked in any decent sized office you’ll know that senior people don’t organise anything. They also aren’t wanted at any gatherings apart from sticking credit cards behind bars and will be home in bed long before the youngsters.
Of course that's the case. But in this instance they knew the parties were happening and being the civil service, must have given the OK. Junior civil servants simply wouldn't have organised events that contravened the rules without getting clearance to do so.
The previous poster is also missing two important points:

  1. Some of the events have been organised by senior people, the report includes explicit evidence of that.
  2. Some of the events have had senior people specifically attend, including the PM.
To try to imply something else "because I've worked in a decent sized office" is bizarre at best given the freely available evidence.

Blackpuddin

16,411 posts

204 months

Wednesday 25th May 2022
quotequote all
Garvin said:
Blackpuddin said:
bhstewie said:
Garvin said:
I expected more damnation to be heaped on Boris by the report and, as a result, a flood of ‘letters’ submitted by Conservative MPs leading to his ejection from office. I did not get the impression that is going to happen unless they were all rushing out of the chamber to write them.

Sir Beer Korma hehe did well at PMQs this morning, possibly for the first time, laying into Boris and the government, quite rightly, on cost of living, inflation, energy etc - these are the issues that will finally do for Boris . . . eventually.

We can have a great debate about Profumo. Be clear, he only resigned because he was caught (with his trousers down) and the party got rid of him. Lots of dedication to charitable work afterwards . . . but was that contrition or just trying to remain accepted in his ‘circles’?
The report makes it clear that his insistence that the guidance was followed at all times was a lie.

When Ellwood is openly asking his own colleagues "Are you willing, day in and day out, to defend this behaviour publicly?" you know some people have a shred of decency left even if Johnson and his apologists don't.

My guess is that Johnson may have survived today but he's done his party damage that will be very difficult to repair.
Sadly I don't think it will be that difficult as politicians of every stripe think they can safely rely on a winning combination of the public's short memory (as they see it) and their own brazenness. We congratulate ourselves for living in a democracy and on being able to question those in power but when those in power simply ignore the questions we're no better off than the Russians.
The great unwashed don’t care half as much as some here think they do about all this.
As for being no better off than the Russians that is, of course, just hyperbole.
If my Russia comment is hyperbole, what's your 'great unwashed' one?

Randy Winkman

16,021 posts

188 months

Wednesday 25th May 2022
quotequote all
Blackpuddin said:
Garvin said:
Blackpuddin said:
bhstewie said:
Garvin said:
I expected more damnation to be heaped on Boris by the report and, as a result, a flood of ‘letters’ submitted by Conservative MPs leading to his ejection from office. I did not get the impression that is going to happen unless they were all rushing out of the chamber to write them.

Sir Beer Korma hehe did well at PMQs this morning, possibly for the first time, laying into Boris and the government, quite rightly, on cost of living, inflation, energy etc - these are the issues that will finally do for Boris . . . eventually.

We can have a great debate about Profumo. Be clear, he only resigned because he was caught (with his trousers down) and the party got rid of him. Lots of dedication to charitable work afterwards . . . but was that contrition or just trying to remain accepted in his ‘circles’?
The report makes it clear that his insistence that the guidance was followed at all times was a lie.

When Ellwood is openly asking his own colleagues "Are you willing, day in and day out, to defend this behaviour publicly?" you know some people have a shred of decency left even if Johnson and his apologists don't.

My guess is that Johnson may have survived today but he's done his party damage that will be very difficult to repair.
Sadly I don't think it will be that difficult as politicians of every stripe think they can safely rely on a winning combination of the public's short memory (as they see it) and their own brazenness. We congratulate ourselves for living in a democracy and on being able to question those in power but when those in power simply ignore the questions we're no better off than the Russians.
The great unwashed don’t care half as much as some here think they do about all this.
As for being no better off than the Russians that is, of course, just hyperbole.
If my Russia comment is hyperbole, what's your 'great unwashed' one?
Good point. And if they are the great unwashed, why does it matter what they think anyway?

deadslow

7,962 posts

222 months

Wednesday 25th May 2022
quotequote all
Randy Winkman said:
Good point. And if they are the great unwashed, why does it matter what they think anyway?
the Tories must surely be 'the great unwashed' if they can so easily tolerate the stench of Johnson
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