Boris Johnson-Prime Minister (Vol 8)
Discussion
cirian75 said:
Been reading the majority of those fined are female.
In spite of the majority of party goers being male.
Curious if so, however the police don't release names of those issued with a FPN and iirc Boris agreed to say if he got one (Rishi too maybe) but nobody else ? so where do the numbers come from out of interest? Has there been a mass confession?In spite of the majority of party goers being male.
El stovey said:
In the real world (where I and presumably you work) leaders get judged all the time and Boris would have been sacked or asked to resign ages ago.
I'm not entirely convinced that's an objective assessment.I know of plenty of knob jockey CxO's who have done worse and remained in post. And even when they do leave, a rather high proportion turn up elsewhere in equally senior positions.
Of course both you and I wouldn't get caught doing such things, we lead by example and if we were caught we'd resign. But I suspect, in part, that is why you and I are minions earning less billions, and the psychotic float to the top....
El stovey said:
blueg33 said:
Genuine question
When it comes to management of the workplace that is number 10. Is Boris a leader? Does he have a leadership role? My guess is no in terms of civil servants and yes in terms of polical appointees like special advisors etc.
IMO responsibility for the parties lies with the leadership as much as the individual, be that leadership a civil service role or a political role. Serious errors of judgement have been made, errors of judgement in leadership that would lose someone their job in the private sector.
As far as BJ is concerned IMO its more about misleading people and 1984 style history management and "doublethink" that I think is wrong.
Quite, and that’s what most impartial people would think also and what would happen in most (real world) workplaces, When it comes to management of the workplace that is number 10. Is Boris a leader? Does he have a leadership role? My guess is no in terms of civil servants and yes in terms of polical appointees like special advisors etc.
IMO responsibility for the parties lies with the leadership as much as the individual, be that leadership a civil service role or a political role. Serious errors of judgement have been made, errors of judgement in leadership that would lose someone their job in the private sector.
As far as BJ is concerned IMO its more about misleading people and 1984 style history management and "doublethink" that I think is wrong.
If you were constantly trying to make excuses for the leader though you’d be blaming his subordinates (or even those pointing out his failings) and then say you’re just taking a “real world” view or adding balance.
Blueg33 - leadership across them all comes from the top, and Boris is failing at that. But in terms of "minutiae" you are correct. And as I understand it, the bloke whose job it was to assess what was and was not allowed with respect to the Downing Street complex (whether we like it or not, it is not like any other workplace/Home) was booted/resigned when this boring s
te first hit the papers.Lies and everything else are semantic arguments mostly, that every single one of the 650 go to a special school run by 10yr olds to learn about.
Boris will be judged by his party and thence the electorate. And, whether we like it or not, no matter how much we squeam and squeam for a better PM, if there is no available candidate we get what we get.
If by some miracle one turns up, I'll beat you to the ballot box to vote for them.
El stovey said:
Garvin said:
The brunt of ‘partygate’ has been borne by the junior staff. Completely and utterly predictable.
Completely and utterly predictable because their boss is such a poor leader and is a poor decision maker, dishonest, and avoids accountability so when it all keeps going wrong for him, he let’s others below him take the blame for his many failings. Yet you, instead of looking at those responsible for these behaviours and actions, who should be accountable. . . Hilariously try to blame people pointing out his failings, due to your ridiculous partisanship.
In no way have I blamed anyone else for Boris’ failings. What I have done, but I realise you are too blinded by your hatred to comprehend it, is put some blame on those calling for the Met to get ‘stuck in’ for the junior staff getting sucked into the affair as collateral damage. In other words Boris should ‘carry the can’ not the underlings.
Garvin said:
El stovey said:
Garvin said:
The brunt of ‘partygate’ has been borne by the junior staff. Completely and utterly predictable.
Completely and utterly predictable because their boss is such a poor leader and is a poor decision maker, dishonest, and avoids accountability so when it all keeps going wrong for him, he let’s others below him take the blame for his many failings. Yet you, instead of looking at those responsible for these behaviours and actions, who should be accountable. . . Hilariously try to blame people pointing out his failings, due to your ridiculous partisanship.
In no way have I blamed anyone else for Boris’ failings. What I have done, but I realise you are too blinded by your hatred to comprehend it, is put some blame on those calling for the Met to get ‘stuck in’ for the junior staff getting sucked into the affair as collateral damage. In other words Boris should ‘carry the can’ not the underlings.
I don’t hate Boris, I like him, I think he’d be a great laugh to go for a drink with, out of all the current MOs he’s probably the one I’d like to have a beer with most, he has a great ability to connect with people and I think he wants everyone to like him.
He does also however have many undesirable qualities that despite making him a laugh would also make him a poor leader, particularly one leading a country.
So no, I don’t hate him at all. I just don’t want him leading our country. Two very different things.
Latest numbers are out.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-repo...
Plus some interesting data (I thought anyway) on which parties voters would vote for after their usual/last preference.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-repo...
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-repo...
Plus some interesting data (I thought anyway) on which parties voters would vote for after their usual/last preference.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-repo...
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 20th May 12:41
El stovey said:
Latest numbers are out.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-repo...
Plus some interesting data (I thought anyway) on which parties voters would vote for after their usual/last preference.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-repo...
Will be very interesting seeing the next one where the no fines for Boris comes out. https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-repo...
Plus some interesting data (I thought anyway) on which parties voters would vote for after their usual/last preference.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-repo...
Edited by El stovey on Friday 20th May 12:41
Also how the SNP will plumet following their fiasco with the trains
Murph7355 said:
You really cannot read, can you?
Do we have any evidence that people attending the same party weren't treated the same? As Garvin notes, you wanted the police involved. Now you seem to be questioning what they've done.
This has never been about openness and honesty. The ONLY outcome you would accept would be Boris resigning. The ONLY one. Keep crying into your cornflakes.
Stratton paid for her own stupidity. No sympathy. Two wrongs do not make a right etc. As I noted, presumably you think what she did was fine (sic) and she would have been rewarded rather than resign? Don't give it large with the whataboutism, what do you think about Stratton's actions that led to her pulling the plug and giving it a bucket load of crocodile tears....?
From what we know so far people were at events Johnson was at and were fined whilst Johnson wasn't fined.Do we have any evidence that people attending the same party weren't treated the same? As Garvin notes, you wanted the police involved. Now you seem to be questioning what they've done.
This has never been about openness and honesty. The ONLY outcome you would accept would be Boris resigning. The ONLY one. Keep crying into your cornflakes.
Stratton paid for her own stupidity. No sympathy. Two wrongs do not make a right etc. As I noted, presumably you think what she did was fine (sic) and she would have been rewarded rather than resign? Don't give it large with the whataboutism, what do you think about Stratton's actions that led to her pulling the plug and giving it a bucket load of crocodile tears....?
Saying that I think most people would like to understand why that came about isn't criticising the Police.
I've been very clear fines aren't the bar here whether it's 1 fine or 10 the pattern of lying deceitful behaviour was there long before the Police were involved.
Nice to see you confirming my suspicions about your idea of what good leadership looks like.
It explains a lot.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: From what we know so far people were at events Johnson was at and were fined whilst Johnson wasn't fined.
Do we know if Johnson was the only person not to be fined at those events? Or is it the case that several people were not fined and several people were? If that was to be the case then perhaps the Police were going on their assessments of what constituted a work meeting and who should have been at said meeting in each case? bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Saying that I think most people would like to understand why that came about isn't criticising the Police.
Maybe not, but in the context of your usual posting style it sort of suggests that you are criticising. Fair enough if that's not the case this time. bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I've been very clear fines aren't the bar here whether it's 1 fine or 10 the pattern of lying deceitful behaviour was there long before the Police were involved.
And yet, the obvious lies already told in regards to beergate don't seem to attract the same level of criticism from you. Yes, KS is not the PM, but if you're going with the line that a pattern of behaviour, rather than the imposition of fines is enough to generate criticism (actually a line I agree with completely) then surely you should be balanced in your criticisms? Anyways, unless there is a suggestion that the Police are corrupt or have been leant on here, there really is no point in everyone getting super frothy about it. Boris has had a FPN, so in the eyes of the Police he broke the regs at least once. Crying cos it wasn't more is not a good look and actually says more about some of his critics and their motivations than it does about Boris.
I still think he should have resigned before now though. He may be having a 'good war' in Ukraine, but he's a busted flush as far as the electorate are concerned. Unless there is some miracle recovery for him in the polls (unlikely) then I think the Party will replace him before the next election.
My choice of Penny Morduant just needs to time her run..........
Half the people saying they voted Green are likely to vote elsewhere. There's nothing like commitment to saving the planet
(Mind you, nearly 2 in 5 Labour supporters too..Starmer must be hoping the LibDem and Green people really mean who they might vote for).
Poll for lolz rather than anything meaningful. But all lolz are good lolz.
Murph7355 said:
Half the people saying they voted Green are likely to vote elsewhere. There's nothing like commitment to saving the planet
(Mind you, nearly 2 in 5 Labour supporters too..Starmer must be hoping the LibDem and Green people really mean who they might vote for).
Poll for lolz rather than anything meaningful. But all lolz are good lolz.
My read is that if the Libs could come up with some decent policies, and find a good, honest, charismatic leader then they could quickly pick up a LOT of votes. (Mind you, nearly 2 in 5 Labour supporters too..Starmer must be hoping the LibDem and Green people really mean who they might vote for).
Poll for lolz rather than anything meaningful. But all lolz are good lolz.
andymadmak said:
And yet, the obvious lies already told in regards to beergate don't seem to attract the same level of criticism from you. Yes, KS is not the PM, but if you're going with the line that a pattern of behaviour, rather than the imposition of fines is enough to generate criticism (actually a line I agree with completely) then surely you should be balanced in your criticisms?
Anyways, unless there is a suggestion that the Police are corrupt or have been leant on here, there really is no point in everyone getting super frothy about it. Boris has had a FPN, so in the eyes of the Police he broke the regs at least once. Crying cos it wasn't more is not a good look and actually says more about some of his critics and their motivations than it does about Boris.
I still think he should have resigned before now though. He may be having a 'good war' in Ukraine, but he's a busted flush as far as the electorate are concerned. Unless there is some miracle recovery for him in the polls (unlikely) then I think the Party will replace him before the next election.
My choice of Penny Morduant just needs to time her run..........
I said on the Starmer thread when new information came out that he appears to have been less than honest and that if he is issued an FPN he should go.Anyways, unless there is a suggestion that the Police are corrupt or have been leant on here, there really is no point in everyone getting super frothy about it. Boris has had a FPN, so in the eyes of the Police he broke the regs at least once. Crying cos it wasn't more is not a good look and actually says more about some of his critics and their motivations than it does about Boris.
I still think he should have resigned before now though. He may be having a 'good war' in Ukraine, but he's a busted flush as far as the electorate are concerned. Unless there is some miracle recovery for him in the polls (unlikely) then I think the Party will replace him before the next election.
My choice of Penny Morduant just needs to time her run..........
I honestly couldn't care if Starmer does go but I do think it's hilarious how the terriers descended on the Starmer thread claiming Starmer's hypocrisy (whilst being in charge of nothing) is somehow worse than Johnson's actual criminality (whilst being in charge of the country).
As for how the Police have handled it other what I said is that I think people will wonder how they got where they did as it will look to a lot of people like junior staff have paid a higher price than the person in charge.
And we still have Johnson refusing to say anything other than we'll have to wait for Sue Gray.
So we're in a strange position where I believe the workplace that was issued with the most Covid fines in the whole of the UK is Downing Street.
I'm amazed anyone is fine with that and if that means I'm being "super frothy" then so be it.
andymadmak said:
My read is that if the Libs could come up with some decent policies, and find a good, honest, charismatic leader then they could quickly pick up a LOT of votes.
Agreed.I was surprised the small amount of conservatives who would vote elsewhere, would be more likely to vote labour than Lib Dem though.
MrBig said:
I think its remarkable what BoJo has achieved, certainly something I never thought I would see in my lifetime... and that is that I will not be voting conservative at the next GE after a lifetime of doing so. And I'm really not a fan of Starmer and the shadow cabinet...
Who would you vote for instead assuming it was tomorrow? I know it’s difficult without any manifestos etc
I normally vote conservative but if Boris is in charge I’d probably vote for the libdems then conservative then labour then green in order of preference as the parties are today.
If the conservatives get rid of Boris soon and sort their house out a bit and don’t completely implode I might vote for them though.
MrBig said:
I think its remarkable what BoJo has achieved, certainly something I never thought I would see in my lifetime... and that is that I will not be voting conservative at the next GE after a lifetime of doing so. And I'm really not a fan of Starmer and the shadow cabinet...
Ditto.I won't make a difference where I live as the incumbent will get voted back in regardless as it's just that type of area.
I'd probably do what I did last time which is vote for an independent as even if they don't stand a hope in hell of winning I think it helps encourage them to stand.
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