Any Blackmagic users here?

Any Blackmagic users here?

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StevieBee

Original Poster:

12,849 posts

255 months

Wednesday 26th January 2022
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Currently mulling over swapping my Panasonic HC-X1 for something with RAW shooting capability.

I seem to be honing in on a BM 6K Pro.

Good and bad reviews though from what I've read the bad tend to relate to ergonomics which for me isn't an issue and worked around with a SmallRig cage. I love the look of what comes out of them and to me, this is key. That and the price.

Would be good to hear real-world experiences.

Fordo

1,535 posts

224 months

Thursday 27th January 2022
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oh im your man for this!

Up until I sold them, I had a pocket 6k and 6k pro, for about a year, used them a lot for studio based shoots, as well as quite a bit of multi cam live stuff. i like them.

Im about to jump on a doc shoot this morn (using an Ursa g2), but i'll put together a proper pros / cons later. Watch this space.

the short review - cracking picture quality (dynamic range not stunning, but still very good image), easy to use menus, terrible battery life, awful ergonomics - too small to be a good A cam, too big to be a B cam, also DSLR style form factor just isnt great for video).

Bacardi

2,235 posts

276 months

Thursday 27th January 2022
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I have had a pocket 4k for a couple of years, bought it for the BRAW (only 12 bit, but better than 10bit LOG) and also comes with the Studio version of Resolve (which I now use exclusively for video work) and was/is cheap as chips for what it can do.

The ergonomics/shape are awful but the menus and interface are a joy. I have managed to balance it on a gimbal but you need to add counter weights. The 6k is bigger and the 6k Pro bigger still, so not sure about them. If you use it on a tripod not an issue.

The Pro certainly adds features, built in NDs, brighter screen, optional EVF etc. I have mine built out with a cage, top and side handle, follow focus, matte box, extra bright monitor and a Core SWX Powerbase Battery, as Fordo says, power is dreadful. I also use a focal reducer to get me back to S35-ish. Makes it quite a bit bigger and heavier though and it won’t fit in my pocket.

You could have a look at Florent’s videos as he has used a few variations and accessories (his footage is rather nice too): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-G_lS5xYMdc&li...

I’m quite tempted with the 12k Ursa. More conventional ergonomics, different sensor which claims 14 stops DR, which I will take with a pinch of salt, although CVP tested and said it is. No crop in on sensor with 8 or 4k and amazing value. BRAW only though, so data may be an issue…

Edited by Bacardi on Thursday 27th January 20:14

StevieBee

Original Poster:

12,849 posts

255 months

Friday 28th January 2022
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Thanks chaps. Much appreciated.

I'm not too worried about ergonomics (or should I be?) as I'll most likely build up a small Small Rig frame around it. For me, size and image quality count for more.

Going to head off to WEX for a hold and look!

Fordo

1,535 posts

224 months

Tuesday 1st February 2022
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How did you find it?


Finally found a bit of time to type of my pros / cons;

Pros

Image quality - the picture you can get out of the camera is excellent. In a standard video mode, (especially now on the gen 5 colour) is very good straight from the camera,.nice skin tones, quite natural colour rendering. Then in raw, you have a lot of data for serous colour grading. I'd say the dynamic range isn't up to the par of higher end cameras, perhaps similar to the previous gen of cameras like the fs7. But it's quite useable with a gentle highlight roll off

Choice of media - there's a choice of 3 media for the cam, sdxc, cfast and you can hook in ssd drives to the usb c port. For the higher frame rates and less compressed raw, you'll need the more expensive media, but it's nice to have the choice. I used to have two 256gb cfast cards, and two 1tb SSD drives

Bluetooth controlled - Cam can be remotely controlled from an app, quite useful when its rigged in awkward places or on a crane, for example.

EF mount - to me this is a pro. Lot of cameras now are being made RF mount, or with other shallow flange distance mounts. But EF, for a super 35mm size sensor, is perfect at this time, for this part of the market. Theres a lot of great EF glass out there. With mine, I used a sigma 18-35mm f1.8, and the 50-100mm, 90% of the time. It pairs very nicely with those. Also DZO optics make a great pair of cine zooms, if you want proper mechanics, which i nearly bought - 17-55mm & 50-135mm - they're very cost effective, come in case, and can be changed from EL to PL too.

Resolve Studio included for free! - a great bonus, resolve is a great piece of grading software, and now a powerful editing suite in its own right. Ive mostly switched from premiere to using resolve, as it runs much faster on the mac hardware, and its great having access to the powerful grading tools.

Menus - the menu system is lovely, and very easy to use

Cons

Ergonomics - its an odd shaped thing, bigger than mirrorless cameras, and yet smaller than a big boy camera than you can shoulder mount. Wether this matters to you depends on how you want to use it. Mostly tripod stuff - no problem. Gimbal - its ok for, but be aware because of its wide shape it only goes on some gimbals and can be awkward to get balanced. On the shoulder - not really suitable, you have to throw so much rigging on it, it would become a pain to use (i have used it in this way, but it was annoying, and not like just popping an FS7 on my shoulder). Handheld - certainly can do some handheld, but its heavier than a small mirrorless cameras, and your want a cage / handle and other bits to make it a bit more holdable. One thing i personally find frustrating is a cam like this encourages you to always shoot low or from the hip as thats easiest - but that means when getting shots of people, you end up shooting up at them, which is unflattering. Personally i prefer a form factor when you can switch between from the hip handheld, to on the shoulder, quickly, as then i can always get the shot / angle im after.

Lack of pro ports - (and they're on the wrong side of the camera - the dslr form factor makes no sense for video really). Photographers don't often have cables hanging out of their cameras, but video cameras often do, for monitors, audio or timecode. So having them on the operator side gets in the way all the time. There's also no SDI for video out, and hdmi itself is an annoying connector. Also only HD out from the HDMI port

Audio - the preamps in the cam aren't too bad, but I noticed a small earth leak 'hum' when mains powering and recording audio. Which brings me to;

Power - even in the pro, which takes slightly larger batteries, they still don't last that long. You can of course mains power, or use vlocks, but then you're rigging the cam up into a franken-rig, which can be cumbersome.

No autofocus - Not really a big issue for me, im old school and focus manually, and much prefer cine style manual lenses. If a shoot needs autofocus, then what it really needs a focus puller! But for some, the smart autofocus systems Canon and Sony have, may be useful or something they'd prefer.

CMOS skew - its not bad, but its not great. perfectly fine for talking heads, product shots etc. But i wouldn't use it with a 400mm lens to get a panning shot of motorsport.

Quirks - like all cameras, its not without its quirks; For example, Its possible to set camera up in 'video' picture profile, and then also add a LUT on the screen - which is basically therefore adds two colour transforms, making the image on the screen look wrong. Timecode cant be manually adjusted at all in any way. (however the minijack port can receive a TC signal from a tentacle or other sync box, which can be useful).


Pocket 6k Vs the 6k pro - while I like the pro- the Nd filters, the fold out screen, and the little viewfinder you can get is great (although again, DSLR form factor again, top middle isnt the best place for it), its quite a bit chonkier than the standard pocket 6k. I also find the LCD screen odd - comapred to the original 6k, the screen is much brighter which is good, but i found the image from it misleading, always making highlights look crushed. I tended to turn the brightness right down. The viewfinder was well worth buying though, much nicer image. But, considering the price difference, it may be worth considering the original 6k, since they are the same inside. Go for the pro is you plan to use outdoors. Go original 6k if you pan to use it in a studio, or doing product shots, or mostly interior work.



Final thoughts. It's certainly not a do everything cam - it's an odd shape / size. But I think it works well for studio productions, product shoots, some gimbal work (although it's a bit chonky and awkward to balance), as well as for rigging in odd places - like car rigs, top down cooking videos, or cranes etc. Also can work well for small scale live work - it also interfaces well with black magics atem mini series, for live work - the tally lights work, operators get a 'preview / live' notification on the cams screen, and cameras can be controlled from the atem, and cams all get TC synced.

So why did I sell mine? - I've been doing a lot of studio work in the last 2 years, and I want to get back to doing more location and travel work. I found myself hiring in bigger cameras for doing doc work when i need an on the shoulder form factor, and long battery life. I considered BMs broadcast g2 (which is a pocket 6k in a bigger body) or an Ursa g2, but instead ive placed an order for a Sony FX6 - Sonys are very industry friendly with producers, so it'll get me more work (in theory), i really like the vari ND built in, battery life much better for location work, and the form factor for me is better - small enough to pop on a gimbal or travel with, but screen in the right place for me to semi-shoulder mount it too. (Even though i hate sony's menus, the odd choice of media and a few other things) - but theres no such thing as a perfect camera!

So the pocket 6ks are great little things, they're by no means perfect, so just be aware of the limitations. If you have any specific questions, just let me know


Edited by Fordo on Tuesday 1st February 12:30

StevieBee

Original Poster:

12,849 posts

255 months

Tuesday 1st February 2022
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Fordo said:
Much helpful stuff
Fordo - you star! Thanks so much for this. Unbelievably helpful!

The pros are outweighing the cons. I reckon I'm 50/50 on the studio/location stuff so leaning towards the pro.

I've been mulling over the FX6 but really can't yet justify the cost when you also add in the lenses. I've gotten lazy with the Panasonic. The AutoFocus is pretty good and I normally end up at the settings you'd get in auto so tend to just leave it in auto. I really don't want that to become the norm so like the idea that I'll need to apply a bit of thought with the BM.

And Resolve.... I'm a Final Cut Pro guy. But I am getting frustrated with it. Can't quite put my finger on why. I get the feeling that it's more for the keen amateur (which is where I started out!). But I know it so I use it - so forcing myself away from it may be what's needed.

One last question if I may.... Is it possible (or advisable) to get a lens convertor? I run a D850 for stills and some video and have some top end glass for that but all FX fitting. I reckon I know the answer but I'll ask it anyway smile

Thanks again - beers banked!! beer






Fordo

1,535 posts

224 months

Tuesday 1st February 2022
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No problem

Lens converters - If memory services, i believe you can mount Nikon F mount glass on EF mount. (the flange depth of F mount is slightly longer than EF, so theres room for an adapter) - but you cant mount nikon on canon EF.

A lot of the adapters are 'dumb' so are just purely mechanic, so would only work with older fully manual F mount lenses. For Nikon lenses that don't have an iris ring, I've seen some with a slim little iris lever, that moves the pin in the back of the lens, to give you iris control. Im not too familiar with how Nikon lenses work, and how much electronics they need - so id just be aware that most adapters wont transmit power to the lens.

Adapters are a double edged sword - I ran a Sony E mount to EF on my old Sony FS7 for ages, as i didn't want to invest in E mount glass. Adapters can sometimes add a little wobble into the system, as you've got two mounts going on. Also, sometimes the electronics can glitch and id occasionally lose iris control, meaning disconnecting and reconnecting the lens till it works again. On the whole, im not a fan of 3rd party adapters in general - but your mileage may vary. If you do get a Nikon F to EF adapter, make sure you get a decent one rather than a cheapo one, and make sure it has iris control, and double check it would work on with your lenses.

As you've been a Panasonic user, have you considered the S1H? I havent used it myself, but I do hear great things - full frame, and 6k recording.

Regarding FCP - i know what you mean. Ive only come across one production company that made it part of their pipeline. It worked for them, as they did very fast turn around stuff. I dont personally get along with it, as you have to work it's way. Powerful tool, and it certainly has its uses, and i think if youre willing to work the way it wants you to, you can probably cut something quicker than in any other program - but I find it very frustating to use.

Also worth noting - I dont think FCP supports black magic's raw codec. You could shoot in 4k prores 422 (and select 'film' picture profile, if youd want a flat 'log' gamma curve, which will give you the full dyanmic range of the camera to play with in the grade) - but to use the full 6k raw, you'd need to work in resolve or premiere, or use resolve to transode the footage to something FCP prefers.

Bacardi

2,235 posts

276 months

Tuesday 1st February 2022
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Just to confirm, Nikkor F mount will adapt to EF just fine and as Fordo says, if you have G lenses without an aperture ring, you need an adaptor with a lever to adjust the iris. If you touch the lens while shooting, you may get a bit of movement, depending on the quality of the adaptor… The world of adaptors is a minefield so tread carefully and do some research.

With regard to editing, if you can use one system, you can use any, bit like driving a different car, the principals are the same, just the switches may be in different positions. FCP is more than capable and attractive to look at. It doesn’t support BRAW natively but you can do work arounds and I believe there is a plug in, but I think it’s just transcoding, which means more work. The thing about BMD, is that they make and design their sensor, to work with their software for optimum results.

You can download a free copy of Resolve and have a play. It’s very powerful as is, but limits output to UHD and water marks any features reserved for the studio version. Don’t think you will have any problems importing media and editing on the timeline will make sense, as will the deliver page. The colour page, where the fun happens, might be a bit daunting as it is node based. I have come from using and owning seats on FCP, Premiere, AF and Avid so using nodes was initially an alien concept, but a powerful one. Resolve also has a powerful audio editing page, Fairlight and a compositing page, Fusion, but that is complicated, but you can ignore it. There are some good tutorials on BMD site and plenty on youtube. When I started I payed for an online course (which has some free lessons too)…

https://filmsimplified.com/p/davinci-resolve-crash...
https://www.youtube.com/c/LearnColorGrading/featur...

Casey Faris has a good intro as well…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozj-aQH0kiE

With regard to the Pro 6K, this popped up in my feed yesterday, with an extensive walk around the camera, physical as well as the interface, resolutions, crops, codecs etc. might be useful…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4COb_VdSTo&t=...


Edited by Bacardi on Wednesday 2nd February 10:04

StevieBee

Original Poster:

12,849 posts

255 months

Wednesday 2nd February 2022
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Bacardi said:
More great stuff!
Many thanks Bacardi. Much appreciated.

I've spent the morning looking through the vids you referenced. I think regardless of anything, I'm going to transition to Resolve. FCP frustrates me not least of which is its need to create superfluous files which eats up storage.

And good news on the F Mount lenses. I guess the thing is to get a good jobbing lens with the camera and then see what works from what I've already got before investing in more.



StevieBee

Original Poster:

12,849 posts

255 months

Wednesday 9th February 2022
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Look what arrived today!



A few more bits and bobs to get. Who needs food and heating anyway? smile

Thanks again for your help chaps!


Bacardi

2,235 posts

276 months

Wednesday 9th February 2022
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thumbup

Fordo

1,535 posts

224 months

Wednesday 9th February 2022
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Huzzah! Congrats on the purchases

I regret selling the two I had - Ive had so many shoots in the last month when i needed them, and theres a huuuge delay on Sony cameras at the moment.

If you have any queries, feel free to message me - I've done such a wide variety of shoots with them over the last year, that i'm a walking talking manual

StevieBee

Original Poster:

12,849 posts

255 months

Thursday 26th May 2022
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Just to bump this back up and again to thank Bacardi and Frodo for their inputs.....

Three months in and loving using the 6K pro. Was surprised at how quickly I built the required level of confidence to use it in the field where everything comes second nature. The only thing I've encountered is forgetting to turn off the HFR when having done slow-mo work!

And oddly, what I thought would be a pain I actually enjoy - rigging the thing. In order to create a usable bit of kit requires the application of Meccano skills and engineering to build a frame suitable for use. It should be a PIA but I quite enjoy spending the evening before a shoot working out and what's needed and building it.

Just added a RS2 gimbal to the arsenal so I can now cancel my gym membership smile

But above all else is the picture you get from it. Wow!

Had a shoot earlier this week that required rapid filming and editing - no time for grading; just out of the camera, cut and out. To add interest I thought I'd shoot with two cameras and having kept my Panasonic HC1X as a back-up, I thought I'd use that. Did a test at home and below is the difference; both cameras using identical settings. I know the two cameras adopt different philosophies but still.....




Simpo Two

85,328 posts

265 months

Thursday 26th May 2022
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Well you've got the gear Steve, now you need to work on exposure smile

StevieBee

Original Poster:

12,849 posts

255 months

Thursday 26th May 2022
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Well, yes... but I was just demonstrating the basic difference in picture between the two.

Bacardi

2,235 posts

276 months

Thursday 26th May 2022
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So pleased you are enjoying the 6k Pro.... and I love your Corgi, wonderful characters....