Russia invades Ukraine. Volume 2
Discussion
andy43 said:
I’m betting there are a lot of military people across the globe quietly crapping themselves about what they’re seeing happening with armoured drones. Silent, cheap, accurate, can be operated by anyone. Unless an army can confidently jam them they’re looking like a very serious threat in modern warfare.
They aren't news to any competent military, and aren't any harder to hit than a plane or missile. Yes they are cheap, but also can also be shot down with a decent radar aimed auto-cannon with cheap ammunition.This gun is fitted to ships, trailers, and trucks.
https://youtu.be/bdwjcayPuag
CrutyRammers said:
Presumably the issue here is that they're hard to see. If you've got proper AA set ups and radar and whathaveyou, they probably are easily countered. But if you daren't turn on your AA radar or jammer because you'll be spotted and attract a load of loitering munitions and/or artillery fire, maybe that all goes out of the window. Or maybe they're only using them where there is no defence, to pick off odd units here and there.
I think it'll prove the opposite. Swarms of cheap, semi autonomous drones could be very very hard to counter.
In daylight a few blokes with binos and a shotgun could do damage. So in daylight this is just another symptom of Russia's lack of infantry.I think it'll prove the opposite. Swarms of cheap, semi autonomous drones could be very very hard to counter.
Stationary/slow + fragile + low aren't feeling like desirable qualities in aircraft.
Plus the damage is being done by artillery in this war - the only reason it feels like drones are significant is because the footage ends up online.
I could be wrong, I often am.
rxe said:
andy43 said:
I’m betting there are a lot of military people across the globe quietly crapping themselves about what they’re seeing happening with armoured drones. Silent, cheap, accurate, can be operated by anyone. Unless an army can confidently jam them they’re looking like a very serious threat in modern warfare.
Quietly crapping themselves is probably an overstatement. Working on countermeasures is probably accurate. Drones are slow, short range and not stealthy. They’re incredibly easy to shoot down. The only real challenge is dealing with hordes of very cheap things that would bankrupt you if you used a proper anti air craft missile. I recall in some of the footage from Camp Bastion, the US had taken a ship based CWIS and bolted it to a stand - I think this was for destroying incoming mortars, but the principle is the same.
Again this points to a lack of air superiority. Whoever has superiority should be able to sit there with radar running, spotting these things from 10s of miles away. If you don’t have superiority, then as soon as you turn your radar on, you’re basically broadcasting an EM ‘hit me, here” at maximum volume.
The Ukranians have a massive advantage in that they have invulnerable, cutting edge observation happening just outside their boundaries.
Then you can add in a certain amount of Artificial Intelligence to them, and theoretically shooting them down is one thing but cant they approach at a very low level, imagine meeting a thousand of them. some armed, loads of decoys, armed with strobe lights, smoke and all sorts.
Sort of can see how you get to a Terminator 2 opening sequence at the moment.
98elise said:
andy43 said:
I’m betting there are a lot of military people across the globe quietly crapping themselves about what they’re seeing happening with armoured drones. Silent, cheap, accurate, can be operated by anyone. Unless an army can confidently jam them they’re looking like a very serious threat in modern warfare.
They aren't news to any competent military, and aren't any harder to hit than a plane or missile. Yes they are cheap, but also can also be shot down with a decent radar aimed auto-cannon with cheap ammunition.This gun is fitted to ships, trailers, and trucks.
https://youtu.be/bdwjcayPuag
Essentially, a 'picket line' dispersed out - then when triggered they kamikaze into the swarm.
Also, rather than ammunition, 'silly string' type stuff that gums up the rotors very quickly and drops them from the sky.
Have we given the Ukrainians Archer?
Artillery than can fire 3 rounds and be gone before the first round has impacted.
https://youtu.be/d8x8ITwd4Vg
Artillery than can fire 3 rounds and be gone before the first round has impacted.
https://youtu.be/d8x8ITwd4Vg
rxe said:
andy43 said:
I’m betting there are a lot of military people across the globe quietly crapping themselves about what they’re seeing happening with armoured drones. Silent, cheap, accurate, can be operated by anyone. Unless an army can confidently jam them they’re looking like a very serious threat in modern warfare.
Quietly crapping themselves is probably an overstatement. Working on countermeasures is probably accurate. Drones are slow, short range and not stealthy. They’re incredibly easy to shoot down. The only real challenge is dealing with hordes of very cheap things that would bankrupt you if you used a proper anti air craft missile. I recall in some of the footage from Camp Bastion, the US had taken a ship based CWIS and bolted it to a stand - I think this was for destroying incoming mortars, but the principle is the same.
Again this points to a lack of air superiority. Whoever has superiority should be able to sit there with radar running, spotting these things from 10s of miles away. If you don’t have superiority, then as soon as you turn your radar on, you’re basically broadcasting an EM ‘hit me, here” at maximum volume.
The Ukranians have a massive advantage in that they have invulnerable, cutting edge observation happening just outside their boundaries.
It doesn't care what it's sat on, it will just attack anything that poses a threat.
It's not the only system though.
blueg33 said:
Have we given the Ukrainians Archer?
Artillery than can fire 3 rounds and be gone before the first round has impacted.
https://youtu.be/d8x8ITwd4Vg
Saw the Royal Horse Artillery do something similar at Windsor Horse Show last week!Artillery than can fire 3 rounds and be gone before the first round has impacted.
https://youtu.be/d8x8ITwd4Vg
blueg33 said:
Have we given the Ukrainians Archer?
Artillery than can fire 3 rounds and be gone before the first round has impacted.
https://youtu.be/d8x8ITwd4Vg
Wow. So it's on the move again before the first round even lands. Impressive.Artillery than can fire 3 rounds and be gone before the first round has impacted.
https://youtu.be/d8x8ITwd4Vg
J4CKO said:
When you see those drone swarms that can be made to produce images in the sky it makes you think if that is possible, imagine what they can be made to do.
Then you can add in a certain amount of Artificial Intelligence to them, and theoretically shooting them down is one thing but cant they approach at a very low level, imagine meeting a thousand of them. some armed, loads of decoys, armed with strobe lights, smoke and all sorts.
Sort of can see how you get to a Terminator 2 opening sequence at the moment.
This exact scenario is in a Tom Clancy video game released 3 years ago (Ghost Recon Breakpoint). If the video game industry has been thinking it for over 5 years then you can bet the military have been working on the idea much longer.Then you can add in a certain amount of Artificial Intelligence to them, and theoretically shooting them down is one thing but cant they approach at a very low level, imagine meeting a thousand of them. some armed, loads of decoys, armed with strobe lights, smoke and all sorts.
Sort of can see how you get to a Terminator 2 opening sequence at the moment.
Digga said:
CrutyRammers said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
mickk said:
CrutyRammers said:
Drone beats tank.
https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1525900772508...
I do wonder if we'll see creation of much cheaper, smaller military drones after this, rather than/as well as just the big reapers etc. Given the track record of military procurement, probably not. But they're clearly useful.
I initially thought one guy survived then after that last detonation I changed my mind.https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1525900772508...
I do wonder if we'll see creation of much cheaper, smaller military drones after this, rather than/as well as just the big reapers etc. Given the track record of military procurement, probably not. But they're clearly useful.
I had to doubletake the caption on the left of the screen at the end. Though it read "BORK" which was apt.
After the second one there is a plume of something warm issuing from the rear quarter of the tank, possible engine started and that's perhaps the exhaust?
After the 3rd drop which is pretty much on target, the 'exhaust plume' increases, engine being accelerated?
As they're now on target, 4th drop follows quickly before tank can move very far, it's clearly now manoeuvring. And Bosh.
Guys who ran away towards top right and bottom left, don't know how far that bottom left guy gets as he's off screen, but there is, I think, a stationary small hot spot near the top, if that's the first runner and now hunkered down in cover should be OK probably.
rxe said:
andy43 said:
I’m betting there are a lot of military people across the globe quietly crapping themselves about what they’re seeing happening with armoured drones. Silent, cheap, accurate, can be operated by anyone. Unless an army can confidently jam them they’re looking like a very serious threat in modern warfare.
Quietly crapping themselves is probably an overstatement. Working on countermeasures is probably accurate. Drones are slow, short range and not stealthy. They’re incredibly easy to shoot down. The only real challenge is dealing with hordes of very cheap things that would bankrupt you if you used a proper anti air craft missile. I recall in some of the footage from Camp Bastion, the US had taken a ship based CWIS and bolted it to a stand - I think this was for destroying incoming mortars, but the principle is the same.
Again this points to a lack of air superiority. Whoever has superiority should be able to sit there with radar running, spotting these things from 10s of miles away. If you don’t have superiority, then as soon as you turn your radar on, you’re basically broadcasting an EM ‘hit me, here” at maximum volume.
The Ukranians have a massive advantage in that they have invulnerable, cutting edge observation happening just outside their boundaries.
Arnold Cunningham said:
blueg33 said:
Have we given the Ukrainians Archer?
Artillery than can fire 3 rounds and be gone before the first round has impacted.
https://youtu.be/d8x8ITwd4Vg
Wow. So it's on the move again before the first round even lands. Impressive.Artillery than can fire 3 rounds and be gone before the first round has impacted.
https://youtu.be/d8x8ITwd4Vg
Castrol for a knave said:
mickk said:
CrutyRammers said:
Drone beats tank.
https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1525900772508...
I do wonder if we'll see creation of much cheaper, smaller military drones after this, rather than/as well as just the big reapers etc. Given the track record of military procurement, probably not. But they're clearly useful.
I initially thought one guy survived then after that last detonation I changed my mind.https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1525900772508...
I do wonder if we'll see creation of much cheaper, smaller military drones after this, rather than/as well as just the big reapers etc. Given the track record of military procurement, probably not. But they're clearly useful.
A beer dispenser repurposed to drop grenades...
https://twitter.com/SanhoTree/status/1525546286094...
Sway said:
Evanivitch said:
jsf said:
Evanivitch said:
The remaining Ukrainians are in tunnels. Tunnels need ventilation. Start covering the place with incendiary rounds and soon enough some smoke is sucked into the tunnels...
It has a filter system designed for worse than that.I'd also imagine a high level of compartmentalisation, with multiple sources of fresh air, etc. that could well cover a much larger area than could be covered by a conventional incendiary attack?
I'm pure armchair private lowest class, but am I the only one drawing parallels with the Siege (I can't remember the name) in France in WW1 where there was a medieval network of tunnels that the French made the Germans fight every last inch of?
J4CKO said:
rxe said:
andy43 said:
I’m betting there are a lot of military people across the globe quietly crapping themselves about what they’re seeing happening with armoured drones. Silent, cheap, accurate, can be operated by anyone. Unless an army can confidently jam them they’re looking like a very serious threat in modern warfare.
Quietly crapping themselves is probably an overstatement. Working on countermeasures is probably accurate. Drones are slow, short range and not stealthy. They’re incredibly easy to shoot down. The only real challenge is dealing with hordes of very cheap things that would bankrupt you if you used a proper anti air craft missile. I recall in some of the footage from Camp Bastion, the US had taken a ship based CWIS and bolted it to a stand - I think this was for destroying incoming mortars, but the principle is the same.
Again this points to a lack of air superiority. Whoever has superiority should be able to sit there with radar running, spotting these things from 10s of miles away. If you don’t have superiority, then as soon as you turn your radar on, you’re basically broadcasting an EM ‘hit me, here” at maximum volume.
The Ukranians have a massive advantage in that they have invulnerable, cutting edge observation happening just outside their boundaries.
Then you can add in a certain amount of Artificial Intelligence to them, and theoretically shooting them down is one thing but cant they approach at a very low level, imagine meeting a thousand of them. some armed, loads of decoys, armed with strobe lights, smoke and all sorts.
Sort of can see how you get to a Terminator 2 opening sequence at the moment.
If cheap means you can send 1000's, then the response is to fit a bigger magazine to your gun system. Fire rate for a Phalanx system is 4500 rounds per minute.
Other systems have programmable explosive rounds with lots of fragments to create clouds of projectiles.
Drones are great, but being unsophisticated and slow makes them vulnerable.
Castrol for a knave said:
Arnold Cunningham said:
blueg33 said:
Have we given the Ukrainians Archer?
Artillery than can fire 3 rounds and be gone before the first round has impacted.
https://youtu.be/d8x8ITwd4Vg
Wow. So it's on the move again before the first round even lands. Impressive.Artillery than can fire 3 rounds and be gone before the first round has impacted.
https://youtu.be/d8x8ITwd4Vg
Arnold Cunningham said:
blueg33 said:
Have we given the Ukrainians Archer?
Artillery than can fire 3 rounds and be gone before the first round has impacted.
https://youtu.be/d8x8ITwd4Vg
Wow. So it's on the move again before the first round even lands. Impressive.Artillery than can fire 3 rounds and be gone before the first round has impacted.
https://youtu.be/d8x8ITwd4Vg
98elise said:
J4CKO said:
rxe said:
andy43 said:
I’m betting there are a lot of military people across the globe quietly crapping themselves about what they’re seeing happening with armoured drones. Silent, cheap, accurate, can be operated by anyone. Unless an army can confidently jam them they’re looking like a very serious threat in modern warfare.
Quietly crapping themselves is probably an overstatement. Working on countermeasures is probably accurate. Drones are slow, short range and not stealthy. They’re incredibly easy to shoot down. The only real challenge is dealing with hordes of very cheap things that would bankrupt you if you used a proper anti air craft missile. I recall in some of the footage from Camp Bastion, the US had taken a ship based CWIS and bolted it to a stand - I think this was for destroying incoming mortars, but the principle is the same.
Again this points to a lack of air superiority. Whoever has superiority should be able to sit there with radar running, spotting these things from 10s of miles away. If you don’t have superiority, then as soon as you turn your radar on, you’re basically broadcasting an EM ‘hit me, here” at maximum volume.
The Ukranians have a massive advantage in that they have invulnerable, cutting edge observation happening just outside their boundaries.
Then you can add in a certain amount of Artificial Intelligence to them, and theoretically shooting them down is one thing but cant they approach at a very low level, imagine meeting a thousand of them. some armed, loads of decoys, armed with strobe lights, smoke and all sorts.
Sort of can see how you get to a Terminator 2 opening sequence at the moment.
If cheap means you can send 1000's, then the response is to fit a bigger magazine to your gun system. Fire rate for a Phalanx system is 4500 rounds per minute.
Other systems have programmable explosive rounds with lots of fragments to create clouds of projectiles.
Drones are great, but being unsophisticated and slow makes them vulnerable.
Bloke leaving his car near a football stadium for the game, kids wanders up and says he will "look after your car for a quid mate ?"
Guy smiles at the kid and says "look inside and you will see my Rottweiler, he looks after my car"
Kid says "Can he put out fires ?"
J4CKO said:
All great in this conflict, just hoping that certain groups and individuals arent having ideas based on this though. Could wreak havoc from potentially miles away.
You think the idea is new? They've been doing this for years already in some parts of the world. None of this drone stuff you see in the videos is new or clever, it's just being publicised and used against a particularly inept and poorly equipped enemy.
Doesn't even need clever countermeasures to detect or kill this grade of kit if you're vaguely competent or prepared.
Every new weapon that changes the course of battle is soon out of date when counter-measures are introduced. The problem is super-sophistication. All this technology costs and one country just having a plethora of drones means that their potential enemies have to either buy expensive counter-measure or start being nice to one-another.
Escalation is always expensive.
Escalation is always expensive.
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