Russia invades Ukraine. Volume 2

[J4CKO]

Was just thinking, Russia now just seems like the mental, stalky ex Ukraine has long since moved on from who is now hell bent on making their life a misery.

Ukraine comes home from work and there is Russia in their kitchen brandishing a knife, who says they will kill you, and themselves if you wont have them back.

Putin, such a romantic old fool...

[speedy_thrills]

BikeBikeBIke said:

Something else I've noticed from Telgram, they all have this zero sum game attitude. If they can make Ukraine worse, that somehow make Russia better. Or if Russia is beaten America gets better. It's the opposite of reality. A wealthy neighbour is always good. (Unless you're a despot who wants to steal from the public purse and conceal it from your people.)

The only flaw is that we don't live in a Zero Sum world. Russia will be substantially worse off economically, likely for generations, while Ukraine seems to be seeking closer economic integration with the EU.

As forewarning though Ukraine is still a very corrupt place. It will take a lot of time and work to implement the policies, checks and balances to prevent this. Countries don't just change overnight (except maybe Singapore.)

[MOTORVATOR]

Jhonno said:

No mention of the Russians threatening to renegade on the Azov Steelworks soldiers POW swap deal, now they have them in their hands? Instead classing them as terrorists and trying them in the courts as such in Russia..

I've seen this sort of thing mentioned a few times and not sure why. Russian laws do not apply to citizens of another country while they are in that country.

As batst crazy as Putin is, even he would not be stupid enough to go down that route as the last remaining piece of world credibility would be gone. Effectively no longer recognised as a sovereign state itself.

[Munter]

MOTORVATOR said:

Jhonno said:

No mention of the Russians threatening to renegade on the Azov Steelworks soldiers POW swap deal, now they have them in their hands? Instead classing them as terrorists and trying them in the courts as such in Russia..

I've seen this sort of thing mentioned a few times and not sure why. Russian laws do not apply to citizens of another country while they are in that country.

As batst crazy as Putin is, even he would not be stupid enough to go down that route as the last remaining piece of world credibility would be gone. Effectively no longer recognised as a sovereign state itself.

From Putin's point of view, they were in Russia. Remember that Ukraine doesn't exist, it's all Russian territory.

[sisu]

Arnold Cunningham said:

It's certainly one of the features that make me very proud and respectful of all our servicemen.
I get that it's underfunded and all the "issues" the services have, but the calibre of individuals themselves in the UK forces I think remains world class.

I would ilke my "next career" to be involved in the R&D of some of the tech we're talking about above to support our forces. We can all dream, right?

I think this will be good for European and UK in the same way that Corona was a wake up call. What is war or an invasion really going to be like? Should we be making or buying stuff locally? Do you need to have money spent on a 1980s era equipment if you have no air force? Yes. But there are much better options available now. The EU army that was the boggie man of Brexit well now does not seem so bad anymore?
Many countries are looking at this Ukraine war as a spring clean of all that old equipment that its main job was to stop a Russian invasion. This was what it is supposed to do. Any Military person likes new kit and one that has been tested in the field of combat rather than just a field by a salesman in summer.
Although America is the Amazon of military equipment what we have seen is that they always have the last say on how it is used and getting more in a time of crisis always comes with strings attached as no one else will lend you theirs because America tells them no. This will also benefit localised production of defence equipment.

Interestingly China has reached out to Canada to improve relations. Not stepped in to help Russia.

[BikeBikeBIke]

speedy_thrills said:

As forewarning though Ukraine is still a very corrupt place. It will take a lot of time and work to implement the policies, checks and balances to prevent this. )

Yeah, it's far from ideal. Going to be very difficult to channel billions into Ukraine to rebuild without fueling some bad stuff. Yet one more reason Putin is a cock.

Wonder if China might want to invest a bit? It would be nice if they did. They'd get more influence in eastern Europe.

[TheJimi]

Jimmm said:

sisu said:

...The KIA survived...

It took me way too many attempts to read this and piece together how someone "Killed In Action" could have survived...

Yup, me too!

[Byker28i]

sisu said:

I think this will be good for European and UK in the same way that Corona was a wake up call.

That bloke coming around your house selling fizzy pop in the 1970's?

Some spellcheckers are really annoying. The one of the Fire Tablet is really agressive

[Jhonno]

Munter said:

MOTORVATOR said:

Jhonno said:

No mention of the Russians threatening to renegade on the Azov Steelworks soldiers POW swap deal, now they have them in their hands? Instead classing them as terrorists and trying them in the courts as such in Russia..

I've seen this sort of thing mentioned a few times and not sure why. Russian laws do not apply to citizens of another country while they are in that country.

As batst crazy as Putin is, even he would not be stupid enough to go down that route as the last remaining piece of world credibility would be gone. Effectively no longer recognised as a sovereign state itself.

From Putin's point of view, they were in Russia. Remember that Ukraine doesn't exist, it's all Russian territory.

This. It would include classifying their regiment as a terrorist organisation..

[sisu]

J4CKO said:

Was just thinking, Russia now just seems like the mental, stalky ex Ukraine has long since moved on from who is now hell bent on making their life a misery.

Ukraine comes home from work and there is Russia in their kitchen brandishing a knife, who says they will kill you, and themselves if you wont have them back.

Putin, such a romantic old fool...

Yes Lavrov has said Finland/Sweden joining NATO will not change anything militarily.
This is more the crazy drunk ex telling you they never loved you anyway. Being single is what Russia wanted anyway. Right China us bhes should stick together

.

[take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey]

Jhonno said:

Munter said:

MOTORVATOR said:

Jhonno said:

No mention of the Russians threatening to renegade on the Azov Steelworks soldiers POW swap deal, now they have them in their hands? Instead classing them as terrorists and trying them in the courts as such in Russia..

I've seen this sort of thing mentioned a few times and not sure why. Russian laws do not apply to citizens of another country while they are in that country.

As batst crazy as Putin is, even he would not be stupid enough to go down that route as the last remaining piece of world credibility would be gone. Effectively no longer recognised as a sovereign state itself.

From Putin's point of view, they were in Russia. Remember that Ukraine doesn't exist, it's all Russian territory.

This. It would include classifying their regiment as a terrorist organisation..

But also likely see Russia classed as a terrorist state. There have been rumblings about that happening anyway.

[anonymous-user]

Jhonno said:

No mention of the Russians threatening to renegade on the Azov Steelworks soldiers POW swap deal, now they have them in their hands? Instead classing them as terrorists and trying them in the courts as such in Russia..

I guess the decision was die of sepsis or dehydration in a bunker or maybe get swapped for some Russian prisoner or murdered. I'm going to guess they are murdered by the Russians as "terrorists" but at least this way there's a small chance they get swapped. Awful.

[FiF]

The comments from that presenter just show the mind state, "we had to do it" " glorious nation will win"

Plus do they think that the Ukrainian will to fight and possibly die for their nation is unique to Ukrainians. They've got a shock coming if they try that one.

Clearly also did not understand the point the guy was making about military professionalism.

[Dog Star]

FiF said:

The comments from that presenter just show the mind state, "we had to do it" " glorious nation will win"

Plus do they think that the Ukrainian will to fight and possibly die for their nation is unique to Ukrainians. They've got a shock coming if they try that one.

Clearly also did not understand the point the guy was making about military professionalism.

The female presenter just appears bonkers.

[Jhonno]

"Russia to question Ukrainian soldiers evacuated from Azovstal in criminal cases

Russia's Investigative Committee said on May 17th that it will "Identify nationalists and check them for involvement in crimes committed against the civilian population of Donbas" in line with one of the Kremlin's propaganda narratives. Earlier on May 16th 264 Ukrainian soldiers were evacuated from the Azovstal steel plant in Mariupol to hospitals in Russian-occupied Novoazovsk and Olenivka in Donetsk Oblast"

Can't make it up.. It's not even funny.

[Garvin]

Dog Star said:

FiF said:

The comments from that presenter just show the mind state, "we had to do it" " glorious nation will win"

Plus do they think that the Ukrainian will to fight and possibly die for their nation is unique to Ukrainians. They've got a shock coming if they try that one.

Clearly also did not understand the point the guy was making about military professionalism.

The female presenter just appears bonkers.

Bonkers? Maybe just indoctrinated by the system. Besides which she probably enjoys a good life just going along with what she is spoon fed by the system so why challenge it!

[hidetheelephants]

DickyC said:

Off Topic -

I've been looking at the news from Ukraine for so long I've become conditioned. A picture popped up on Facebook and I was looking down into a bunker full of soldiers.



It's actually a box of expensive cakes.

Ambassador's favourite with the wrapper still on? Overpriced cakes more like.

sisu said:

Swedish Panserskott 86 (AT-4) launcher exploded in the boot of a car in Mystishchi Russia, it was taken from Ukrainian battlefield by someone as a souvenir. The KIA survived surprisingly well compared to a T-72

[havoc]

Munter said:

I'd think the reality of Russia is that those people have no option to improve their own lives. Controlled via propaganda, financially, and physically, the only option to feel in control of their lives, is to bring down the standard of living for others.

Clearly not to the same degree, but that's what you tend to see in the run-down areas of cities in the UK too - that utter hopelessness expressed as random violence and destruction.

It's a good advertisement for a coherent society and a decent* safety-net...




* but not excessive...if living on benefits is a better option than working, then something's fundamentally wrong.

[Jhonno]

"In Melitopol russian invaders destroy books on the history of Ukraine.

russians confiscate history textbooks from libraries. They were declared banned literature, because according to the invaders, these books “promote the ideas of nationalism," - reports a statement of the Defense Forces of Zaporyzhzhya oblast."

[CrutyRammers]

sisu said:

Arnold Cunningham said:

It's certainly one of the features that make me very proud and respectful of all our servicemen.
I get that it's underfunded and all the "issues" the services have, but the calibre of individuals themselves in the UK forces I think remains world class.

I would ilke my "next career" to be involved in the R&D of some of the tech we're talking about above to support our forces. We can all dream, right?

I think this will be good for European and UK in the same way that Corona was a wake up call. What is war or an invasion really going to be like? Should we be making or buying stuff locally? Do you need to have money spent on a 1980s era equipment if you have no air force? Yes. But there are much better options available now. The EU army that was the boggie man of Brexit well now does not seem so bad anymore?

Interesting take on things. If anything, the behaviour of various EU countries here rather reinforces the view that such an army would be of zero use, because they'd all still be arguing about what to do while the enemy tanks rolled up outside.
When the st hits the fan, actions are and always have been negotiated by individual countries talking to each other, as we're seeing again here.