Russia invades Ukraine. Volume 2

[PRTVR]

MLRS fragments found in destroyed Russia warehouse 45km behind front line.

https://gagadget.com/en/war/140941-the-work-of-the...



The video that I posted the other day showing a helicopter in the distance getting shot down has been confirmed by the Ukrainians as being shot down by a star streak missile.

[isaldiri]

spookly said:

I can't see a more deserving place to be spending that money at the moment.

What makes Ukraine so much more deserving of having money and arms supplied compared to.....well name any of the other places in the world where terrible things are either happening or have been happening for goodness knows how long that we have been quite content to allow happening for ages...?

[EddieSteadyGo]

isaldiri said:

spookly said:

By reading all the news articles quoting most world leaders becoming more, not less, steadfast in their support for Ukraine.

Well that's the point i suppose, I don't think it's quite as clearcut as you seem to that the 'steadfastness of support' will last for months. Let's see what the politicians actually do later rather than say now in the year anyway when or if public opinion shifts as talk is cheap (especially when it concerns politicians)....

Perhap spookly didn't read all the news articles. CNN are reporting the following.

"Advisers to President Biden have begun debating internally how and whether Zelensky should shift his definition of a Ukrainian "victory" -- adjusting for the possibility that his country has shrunk irreversibly."

Of course that isn't yet US policy and it hasn't filtered up to the big cheeses, but we would be naive to believe the discussions are not currently ongoing behind the scenes, regardless of the set piece announcements.

https://twitter.com/NatashaBertrand/status/1541755...

[spookly]

isaldiri said:

spookly said:

I can't see a more deserving place to be spending that money at the moment.

What makes Ukraine so much more deserving of having money and arms supplied compared to.....well name any of the other places in the world where terrible things are either happening or have been happening for goodness knows how long that we have been quite content to allow happening for ages...?

Fair point. But this one has far greater economic and geopolitical consequences for us (us as in the NATO/Western countries).
Is that morally fair, perhaps not. But I don't think this one can be safely ignored. We've already seen what Putin did after we mostly ignored his annexation of Crimea and his invasion of 2014. And on the back of ignoring chemical weapons use and murders in the UK.
That's the problem with Putin. If nobody stands up to him he isn't magically going to get better, he'll just be emboldened to do worse and see where the line is. About time they were shown that the line exists.

[BikeBikeBIke]

spookly said:

Yes, we'll see.
I can't see support wavering. What is being provided to Ukraine is a small proportion of NATO countries defence spending and their international aid spending. I can't see a more deserving place to be spending that money at the moment. All these leaders seem to realise that the genie won't go back in the bottle and putting the problem off until Putin's next invasion isn't a viable strategy. Even ending the war now wouldn't ease inflationary pressures, I'm sure they know that too. The only way this could go back to pre-invasion would be a complete capitulation to Putin and let him do what he wants..... I really cannot see that option being on the table.

Exactly. There isn't a 'non-steadfast' option to take.

[BikeBikeBIke]

spookly said:

Fair point. But this one has far greater economic and geopolitical consequences for us (us as in the NATO/Western countries).
Is that morally fair, perhaps not. But I don't think this one can be safely ignored. We've already seen what Putin did after we mostly ignored his annexation of Crimea and his invasion of 2014. And on the back of ignoring chemical weapons use and murders in the UK.
That's the problem with Putin. If nobody stands up to him he isn't magically going to get better, he'll just be emboldened to do worse and see where the line is. About time they were shown that the line exists.

This. Giving Russia permission to invade European countries at times convenient to them just isn't remotely an option. (In a very literal sense.)

[HM-2]

isaldiri said:

spookly said:

By reading all the news articles quoting most world leaders becoming more, not less, steadfast in their support for Ukraine.

Well that's the point i suppose, I don't think it's quite as clearcut as you seem to that the 'steadfastness of support' will last for months. Let's see what the politicians actually do later rather than say now in the year anyway when or if public opinion shifts as talk is cheap (especially when it concerns politicians)....

This argument seems predicated on the false assumptions that a) reduction in support for Ukraine will somehow address economic issues likely to result in popular dissatisfaction (it won't), that b) popular resolve over Ukraine would be weakened by economic factors (possible but so far unsupported by evidence) and c) that many of the direct and immediate consequences of the conflict from an economic disruption perspective are long term (they're not, and we're already seeing stabilisation in a range of areas made volatile by the conflict).

The West could support a level of military support commitment to Ukraine two or three times higher than we're currently providing and have zero long term economic impact.

[BikeBikeBIke]

Russian economy tanking:

https://twitter.com/jakluge/status/154222013285609...

[BikeBikeBIke]

HM-2 said:

This argument seems predicated on the false assumptions that a) reduction in support for Ukraine will somehow address economic issues likely to result in popular dissatisfaction (it won't), that b) popular resolve over Ukraine would be weakened by economic factors (possible but so far unsupported by evidence) and c) that many of the direct and immediate consequences of the conflict from an economic disruption perspective are long term (they're not, and we're already seeing stabilisation in a range of areas made volatile by the conflict).

The West could support a level of military support commitment to Ukraine two or three times higher than we're currently providing and have zero long term economic impact.

Plus, as Peron says, in spite of all of this the Western economies will all grow, in spite of sanctions and expenditure. The Russian economy will massively shrink.

[CrutyRammers]

isaldiri said:

spookly said:

I can't see a more deserving place to be spending that money at the moment.

What makes Ukraine so much more deserving of having money and arms supplied compared to.....well name any of the other places in the world where terrible things are either happening or have been happening for goodness knows how long that we have been quite content to allow happening for ages...?

Why not read the previous dozen times or so that this has been answered for you rather than posting the same thing every day?

[hidetheelephants]

isaldiri said:

spookly said:

I can't see a more deserving place to be spending that money at the moment.

What makes Ukraine so much more deserving of having money and arms supplied compared to.....well name any of the other places in the world where terrible things are either happening or have been happening for goodness knows how long that we have been quite content to allow happening for ages...?

Because Ukraine being subsumed/conquered/etc by Russia is a proximate security threat to the UK and supplying them weapons and other assistance is moral and expedient. Call it enlightened self-interest, call it cynical use of a proxy, I don't care and apparently neither do the ukrainians.

[TCX]

hidetheelephants said:

isaldiri said:

spookly said:

I can't see a more deserving place to be spending that money at the moment.

What makes Ukraine so much more deserving of having money and arms supplied compared to.....well name any of the other places in the world where terrible things are either happening or have been happening for goodness knows how long that we have been quite content to allow happening for ages...?

Because Ukraine being subsumed/conquered/etc by Russia is a proximate security threat to the UK and supplying them weapons and other assistance is moral and expedient. Call it enlightened self-interest, call it cynical use of a proxy, I don't care and apparently neither do the ukrainians.

Or is it because...it's a more amenable place to continue washing taxpayer money to arms manufacturers and private military contractors since the afghan cash cow was abandoned?

[barryrs]

TCX said:

Or is it because...it's a more amenable place to continue washing taxpayer money to arms manufacturers and private military contractors since the afghan cash cow was abandoned?

So Putin and NATO are in cahoots?

[HM-2]

TCX said:

hidetheelephants said:

isaldiri said:

spookly said:

I can't see a more deserving place to be spending that money at the moment.

What makes Ukraine so much more deserving of having money and arms supplied compared to.....well name any of the other places in the world where terrible things are either happening or have been happening for goodness knows how long that we have been quite content to allow happening for ages...?

Because Ukraine being subsumed/conquered/etc by Russia is a proximate security threat to the UK and supplying them weapons and other assistance is moral and expedient. Call it enlightened self-interest, call it cynical use of a proxy, I don't care and apparently neither do the ukrainians.

Or is it because...it's a more amenable place to continue washing taxpayer money to arms manufacturers and private military contractors since the afghan cash cow was abandoned?

This, ladies and gentleman, is what happens when you spend too much time on Twitter.

[CharlesdeGaulle]

HM-2 said:

TCX said:

hidetheelephants said:

isaldiri said:

spookly said:

I can't see a more deserving place to be spending that money at the moment.

What makes Ukraine so much more deserving of having money and arms supplied compared to.....well name any of the other places in the world where terrible things are either happening or have been happening for goodness knows how long that we have been quite content to allow happening for ages...?

Because Ukraine being subsumed/conquered/etc by Russia is a proximate security threat to the UK and supplying them weapons and other assistance is moral and expedient. Call it enlightened self-interest, call it cynical use of a proxy, I don't care and apparently neither do the ukrainians.

Or is it because...it's a more amenable place to continue washing taxpayer money to arms manufacturers and private military contractors since the afghan cash cow was abandoned?

This, ladies and gentleman, is what happens when you spend too much time on Twitter.

Or on drugs.

[Biggy Stardust]

Bluedot said:

All sound pretty sensible to me.
I can't even begin to imagine the horror and outrage should they ever try and implement something like that in this country

The notable thing about national service is that almost everyone suggesting it would be exempt themselves- they think it's a great idea for others to be forced into it.

[BikeBikeBIke]

Biggy Stardust said:

Bluedot said:

All sound pretty sensible to me.
I can't even begin to imagine the horror and outrage should they ever try and implement something like that in this country

The notable thing about national service is that almost everyone suggesting it would be exempt themselves- they think it's a great idea for others to be forced into it.

I was opposed to it, but now you remind me I won't be eligible it seems like a great idea. Just what youngsters need. Character building.


In other news Russia short of conscripts:

https://twitter.com/MassDara/status/15421669920225...

[bloomen]

I have no doubt that tons of people in places like South Korea and Finland resent their national service. However they also have a genuine threat hanging over them and plenty of them are happy enough to do it.

National service here would probably involve spotty youths working as GPs and bum wipers. And probably paying for the privilege to do it.

[vdn]

A Russian I know through work says that the 'evolved' Russians really don't like what's happening. He is in the arts.

And apparently, life has changed and is changing daily... the results of sanctions and the western brands pull out, was gradual enough to not warrant panic in the populous but things are looking bad and there's an eerie feeling of what's to come.

Russia has truly fked itself. All for a small man, who was bullied as a child, to act out his fantasies of tough man / great leader of yesteryear.

[anonymous-user]

TCX said:

Or is it because...it's a more amenable place to continue washing taxpayer money to arms manufacturers and private military contractors since the afghan cash cow was abandoned?