RMT union vote for a national rail strike

[legzr1]

valiant said:

Well, as I am a tube driver who was a random off the street who knew no one in the job I’d say you’re still talking ste.

For the record, the Tube has held three recruitment drives for part time drivers specifically for the introduction for Night Tube a few years back where we needed a lot of new drivers quickly. All those drivers are now full time unless they wanted to stay part time.

Union blessing? More ste. Believe it or not, LUL has a Human Resources department that recruits according to a criteria that is set by management. You know, like virtually every single large company out there. Are you really trying to say that the union dictates company recruitment policy?

The Tube does have a habit of recruiting internally but that’s because it has a willing pool of staff waiting who are already known to the company, are used to shift work and the culture and is used as a promotional tool for staff and the system works. Where we don’t get enough internals coming through then an external drive is advertised. This is not unique to the Underground.

Now, is there any other nonsense you wish to impart with us? You’ve been wrong on everything else so don’t stop now.

Game, set and match.

Well played Sir.

[rxe]

valiant said:

Well, as I am a tube driver who was a random off the street who knew no one in the job I’d say you’re still talking ste.

For the record, the Tube has held three recruitment drives for part time drivers specifically for the introduction for Night Tube a few years back where we needed a lot of new drivers quickly. All those drivers are now full time unless they wanted to stay part time.

Union blessing? More ste. Believe it or not, LUL has a Human Resources department that recruits according to a criteria that is set by management. You know, like virtually every single large company out there. Are you really trying to say that the union dictates company recruitment policy?

The Tube does have a habit of recruiting internally but that’s because it has a willing pool of staff waiting who are already known to the company, are used to shift work and the culture and is used as a promotional tool for staff and the system works. Where we don’t get enough internals coming through then an external drive is advertised. This is not unique to the Underground.

Now, is there any other nonsense you wish to impart with us? You’ve been wrong on everything else so don’t stop now.

Well done you. But you do accept that the tube has a habit of recruiting internally, which is the point I am making.

So why are the wages so high? Given that the entry criteria are minimal.

Edit - I’ll answer the question for you - here:

https://www.mylondon.news/news/zone-1-news/how-job...

The key paragraph:

Due to the unique nature of the Tube driver job role, vacancies are almost never advertised to the public, only to TfL colleagues. This is largely due to an agreement between TfL and unions struck in 2008. The only time they have been recently was in 2016 when the Night Tube was announced. Now that the Night Tube driver role has been abolished, there is almost no chance of managing to go straight from street to Tube driver.

Here as well from the independent (oldish article but makes the same point)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/tube-strike-...

Not sure who is talking rubbish now….

Edited by rxe on Friday 27th May 01:09

[S17Thumper]

For anyone interested in what’s listed this seems to be one of the ads for the night tube recruitment.

[Welshbeef]

S17Thumper said:

For anyone interested in what’s listed this seems to be one of the ads for the night tube recruitment.

Love the “skills” good time keeping.

Pretty sure elementary school children are able to fulfil this requirement.

[anonymoususer]

I can see little point in wanting to visit London

1. It's expensive
2. There will likely be some demonstration on thanks to that odious little mayor seemingly welcoming lefties to use London as their canvass
3. The risk of getting surcharged for driving somewhere in the city
4. The chance of strikes
5. Overpriced food

It has some truly brilliant buildings and is magnificent in parts but There are other places to go for not much more money and often less that just don't give you the hassle

[98elise]

CarCrazyDad said:

98elise said:

A nurse needs a degree, and is doing a job that involves people lives. It doesn't pay that well becasue enough people want to do it. It is a desirable job at that wage.


Different professions pay more because of the skills required, and the desirability of the work

Rail workers get paid more because they work in a monopoly and can blackmail the country.

If there was any competition unionised rail would fail within a very short space of time.

Unions started out with good intent, but they have developed into a mafia. I'd love to see the back of them.

It isn't desirable. It's hard, long hours, with crap pay.
But it appeals to peoples altruism.

They could sack off virtually all middle management and pay the Nurses the 35k they deserve..

If people do it for altruism is still a desire to do the job, for the current wage.

[chemistry]

Currently writing this at the train station, where my train is delayed. Again.

The service and the people that operate it are a disgrace.

Happily these days I can replace most of my train journeys with Zoom etc and this sort of crap, overpriced service just encourages that more. I pity those who have to use the trains regularly and personally wouldn’t shed a tear if the whole rotten service got consigned to the history books.

[Biggy Stardust]

I had a spell where I went to work by train- it was a thoroughly miserable experience due to trains so full you literally couldn't fit another person on board, delayed/cancelled trains & excessive ticket prices.
Whenever weather & circumstances permitted I'd use the motorbike instead. Even the free parking at the station & the fact that I worked right next to the other station couldn't change this.

[Vasco]

It's a great shame that so much of the rail system is unreliable - and much of it is horrendously expensive. It used to be a good way of travelling long distances but I guess that time is long gone.
It will be a shame if some rural routes are further cut back, or closed, but a combination of costs and unco-operative staff/unions suggests that this is the way forward.
Given that 90% of the population rarely, or never, catch a train then I can't see retention of services being much of a vote winner for any political party - get rid of the RMT and things could look better.

[KarlMac]

Biggy Stardust said:

I had a spell where I went to work by train- it was a thoroughly miserable experience due to trains so full you literally couldn't fit another person on board, delayed/cancelled trains & excessive ticket prices.
Whenever weather & circumstances permitted I'd use the motorbike instead. Even the free parking at the station & the fact that I worked right next to the other station couldn't change this.

When I worked in industry my company was based at the station at Doncaster and our customer at Kings Cross. We had to go down there once a week for a review and after a month I fought tooth and nail to drive at my own cost because taking the train was such an unreliable, unpleasant experience.

[Previous]

chemistry said:

Currently writing this at the train station, where my train is delayed. Again.

The service and the people that operate it are a disgrace.

Happily these days I can replace most of my train journeys with Zoom etc and this sort of crap, overpriced service just encourages that more. I pity those who have to use the trains regularly and personally wouldn’t shed a tear if the whole rotten service got consigned to the history books.

Knowing that route (at least the GWR part) I'd hazard a guess at the standard class fare at that time of day being over £100 for the privilege too!

[motco]

KarlMac said:

Biggy Stardust said:

I had a spell where I went to work by train- it was a thoroughly miserable experience due to trains so full you literally couldn't fit another person on board, delayed/cancelled trains & excessive ticket prices.
Whenever weather & circumstances permitted I'd use the motorbike instead. Even the free parking at the station & the fact that I worked right next to the other station couldn't change this.

When I worked in industry my company was based at the station at Doncaster and our customer at Kings Cross. We had to go down there once a week for a review and after a month I fought tooth and nail to drive at my own cost because taking the train was such an unreliable, unpleasant experience.

One of the low points in my life was having to go to Euston Red Star office to send a parcel of electronic assemblies to a customer in Yorkshire every Friday afternoon. Driving in to London on a Friday was bad enough, but the Red Star department of British Rail was utterly soul destroying. Dumb insolence, gratuitous ignorance of the staff who would make a stroppy French waiter seem sycophantically attentive. There's more but I am reliving it and I think I'll slit my throat now. Renationalise? Non merci!

[Scrimpton]

There are signallers jobs advertised near me starting from £26k. That doesn't strike me as particularly excessive for the shifts and responsibilities.

[NWTony]

P5BNij said:

ChocolateFrog said:

XCP said:

Lots of cops leaving the force( who can blame them) and becoming train drivers.

I reckon cops, prison officers and ex forces make up atleast half if not more of drivers that come in off the street.

Certainly it was 3 out of 4 on my course.

Over the years at our depot we've had six coppers (one was a high ranking detective), two firemen, two Falklands veterans and two paramedics become drivers, and one of our previous managers was a commercial pilot. On the whole we get some great people come through who are attracted to the job for different reasons and they're very dedicated, but there are a few who get through the entire interview, medical, training and qualifying process who then jack it in after a few weeks because they either don't like being on their own for hours at a time, or they don't enjoy the responsibility. It's a shame really as they're all decent sorts, it must be disheartening for them when they realise it's not for them. No doubt some would say that they should have been weeded out earlier on, but it doesn't always pan out that way, as in any other job.

Just checked, the pass rate is 96%! https://www.railstaff.co.uk/2016/02/19/what-it-tak...

[faa77]

valiant said:

Well, as I am a tube driver who was a random off the street

Does this not kinda suggest 60k is a high salary for someone coming off the street, straight in to a public sector job?

And if TfL openly-advertised, then the supply of labour would increase and the wages would be lower?

In other words, the salary is kept artificially-high only through a union-forced monopoly.

[monkfish1]

2xChevrons said:

faa77 said:

They replied and implied driving a train is not simple. I'm not researching someone else's point.

So what's difficult?

In general - people who think that driving a train is just pulling a lever to 'go' and another to 'stop' are operating on about the same level of insight as those who think that airliner pilots don't have to do anything because it's all done by autopilot these days. I hope no one would say that flying a Airbus A380 wasn't without skill, risk, judgement or difficulty.

More specifically:

Train drivers have to 'sign' for both a route and a type of traction (the specific model of train). Signing a route means the driver is fully conversant with every yard of track, the location and amount of every change in speed limit, the location, type, number and meaning of every signal, the location, designation and number of every set of points, the location and number of every platform, the name and length of every tunnel, the location and type of every crossing, every change in gradient (and what that gradient is) and so on. And that includes all the passing loops, every running line and all possible routings through stations - it's no good only knowing the 'proper' route up a main line if there's a diversion one day and you're routed onto another one.

Here's an old route-learning video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANKeWdBylHs - this one's fairly short but everything the narrator mentions has to be memorised and understood. And drivers can end up having to know routes hundreds of miles long, and can sign for multiple routes at once. As well as all these fixed features, route knowledge includes knowing the braking points (when to decelerate or brake - and by how much - for stations, junctions or speed limit changes), and the location of bridges, tunnels, wayside structures and even distinctive bumps or humps in the line, wobbly bits of track and so on so they can be sure of exactly where they are (and, therefore, where they are in relation to crucial things like signals and speed restrictions) even if they're driving completely blind in a thick fog or a dark night. They have to know where, say, traffic lights and street lamps could be confused with railway signals, and how other trains on other running tracks will appear, so they don't get a heart-stopping moment as they round a curve and see a train and a taillight seemingly right in front of them - it's actually on an adjacent running line but the curvature of the track makes it seem directly ahead. I've seen some drivers' route-learning notes that included notes of sounds and smells from trackside factories, farms etc.

Signing for 'traction' is like type rating for aircraft - it means the driver is fully conversant with the technical aspects of the unit, what its limitations are, how its systems work; does it have EP brakes, twin-pipe Westinghouse brakes, selectable air or vacuum brakes, blended air and dynamic braking, separate air and dynamic braking? Does it have distinct power and brake notches or are they infinitely variable? Does it have automatic sanding and/or automatic wheelslip detection? Can you just throw the power handle wide open from a standing start or will that pop a breaker? Does it have multiple working gear - what sort and with what other traction can it work? How is it coupled? How do you prepare the unit from 'cold and dark' and how do you shut it down safely? What safety and train control systems does it have? How are they isolated if they're faulty or reset if they're triggered? What faultfinding/limp home techniques do you need to know, and what failures are beyond a driver's ability to deal with out on the line? And so on and on and on and on.

And that's all before you get to the skills and challenges of actually driving the thing. You could be eating up distance at over two miles per minute, having to keep your mind a good five or ten miles ahead of where you actually are to make sure you run exactly at the timetabled speed while staying safe for the weather, track and traffic conditions. You could be doing some high-intensity commuter belt work where hitting every braking point at the exact right speed with the exact right amount of brake to bring the front of the unit to a smooth stop directly in align with the stopping board at the end of the platform is key to keeping up to time. Or you could be running a 2400-ton freight train over a line with a 'saw tooth' gradient profile, leaving one end of the train going downhill while the other is still going up hill, and having to judge the amount of power required at any given time to keep the couplings taught, but not over-tensioned. Or keeping the same train under control down a long 1-in-100 bank, always keeping in mind that you've only got enough air in the brake system for three, maybe five, good brake applications and you can't modulate them up and down - you have to fully release the brakes before re-applying them.

That's still not touching on even a decent fraction of the technical skills and challenges that can face a train crew, let alone all the adjacent safety-critical procedural stuff. To return to my airliner analogy, it can look very easy to an outsider when it's all going well, but when it all goes wrong is when the human operator earns the big bucks.

I'm not a train driver, either. I've been fortunate enough to talk to a good many railwaymen and I have an interest in how things - rail, road, sea, air - work. I'd like to think I've something of an appreciation for what's required.

Edited by 2xChevrons on Thursday 26th May 19:08

Nothing incorrect in the various things you describe.

But its not difficult. What you do need is a good memory and to follow laid down processes. And usualyy crap hours.

But lets not pretend its difficult. And there a world of difference between heavy freight and driving a modern 4 car emu up and down the same railway every day.

.

[Vasco]

Scrimpton said:

There are signallers jobs advertised near me starting from 26k. That doesn't strike me as particularly excessive for the shifts and responsibilities.

I've always thought that signallers are grossly undervalued, particularly in relation to a train drivers wages. After all, signallers are the key ones to set routes, ensure safety etc - the drivers have to do what the signaller determines.
A bit of 'leveling up' between pay rates of various positions seems long overdue.

[Gareth1974]

chemistry said:

Currently writing this at the train station, where my train is delayed. Again.

The service and the people that operate it are a disgrace.

Happily these days I can replace most of my train journeys with Zoom etc and this sort of crap, overpriced service just encourages that more. I pity those who have to use the trains regularly and personally wouldn’t shed a tear if the whole rotten service got consigned to the history books.

I note that the train was delayed by vandalism at Warminster. Not really the fault of the disgraceful railway workers? Prior to that it was on time, as was it's previous working which had started from Waterloo at 0508. Nice early start for the staff on that one.

I see that the train recovered most of the delay due to the efficient staff at Bristol Temple Meads managing to get the train in and out of the station in 3 minutes, allowing the train run on time for the rest of it's journey.

[Rick101]

Actual facts?

Not for this thread. It's all about the disgraceful drivers on 100K a year

[Welshbeef]

Scrimpton said:

There are signallers jobs advertised near me starting from 26k. That doesn't strike me as particularly excessive for the shifts and responsibilities.

Take a look at some supermarket jobs you’d be surprised by the annual package.