If Britain rejoined the EU tomorrow…

[don'tbesilly]

heebeegeetee said:

don'tbesilly said:

Yet they still have the same problems in Europe that exist in the UK.

I do not believe that.

For instance, out public transport is very much in the news, but me experience of public transport in EU is of a completely different nature to what I've experienced in UK.

I believe that in many regards we are 50 years behind Europe, BEFORE we get into Brexit/Covid/Ukraine.

I say Europe is absolutely not having the same problems as us.

If they are, then clearly we were right to not invest in infrastructure etc as the EU has, because clearly it makes no difference. No need for us to continue to invest either, clearly.

Why move the goalposts to what was originally being discussed?

We were specifically talking about problems with staff, the discussion you started with your extract from the Telegraph in regards to EasyJet’s staffing issues.

It’s clear that the issues (staffing) in and across Europe are no different to the issues being experienced in the UK despite and according to you, that across Europe they can move people around.

It’s clear that despite such a solution being available in Europe, the solution isn’t a solution because there isn’t the resource available.

[heebeegeetee]

crankedup5 said:

heebeegeetee said:

crankedup5 said:

Yes I agree, in my last post I was going to add that the two year virtual shutdown of the World,
blah de blah, but it seems that it falls on deaf ears. Not saying that Evantitch would dismiss the point, perhaps he may accept it as reasonable.
Looking at the post regarding our current problems in transport, quick to ‘diss’ the U.K. whilst completely ignoring the self same problem across mainland Europe.

If it's the self same problem (the numerous links seem to refer to one airport on a continent), then FOM couldn't have made any difference, so what's the problem with it?

Mainland Europe have many of the same problems as U.K. regarding staff shortages within the industry that you highlighted earlier in the thread.
FOM a is not alleviating their self same staffing issues. So where are the benefits of FOM to that industry?

Exactly. If FOM is ineffectual, why worry about it, why campaign against it, why stop it, and how about we stop talking about EU workers going home etc, because clearly they made no difference when they were here, they obviously contributed nothing.

This is of course, completely the opposite of what was being said during the referendum campaign. I know many people, I believe cranked is also one, who were concerned about immigration, but now we are being told that FOM makes no difference.

[heebeegeetee]

don'tbesilly said:

Why move the goalposts to what was originally being discussed?

We were specifically talking about problems with staff, the discussion you started with your extract from the Telegraph in regards to EasyJet’s staffing issues.

It’s clear that the issues (staffing) in and across Europe are no different to the issues being experienced in the UK despite and according to you, that across Europe they can move people around.

It’s clear that despite such a solution being available in Europe, the solution isn’t a solution because there isn’t the resource available.

Essentially then, FOM doesn't exist, if it's completely ineffective.

I mean, did Polish people come here or not, did they have any effect on our society at all, or not?

[vonuber]

Biggy Stardust said:

How much of all of that did UK pay for, via the generosity of the EU?

Ah yes, that's why we are lacking behind everyone else.
It's not the decades of mismanagement, poor planning and underfunding, it's all down to that.
If only we hadn't been in the EU, we would have had a world class public transport system to rival them!

The number of schemes on the drawing board now we are free from those shackles is immense!

[heebeegeetee]

Let's not forget, we had 45+ years of negative press about the EU. There was never any balance, almost nothing positive to report apparently, only bad news.

Obviously it's still continuing to this day, and this thread shows that people still believe it, without question.

The words "tucked up like kippers" springs to mind, and obviously quite apt too.

[gazapc]

Brexit is the action of leaving the EU. The benefits largely occur in the medium and longer term as the UK deviates from the point at which it left. Whether you think those benefits outweight the costs is obviously a point of discussion.

This evolving nature is the same as the EU itself, which pushed towards closer integration, further treaties etc.... What the UK voted 6 years ago to leave is not the same as in 10 years time.

So if we rejoined tomorrow, probably not much would be noticed (unless the historical opt outs such as the Euro were not reinstated) apart from a few more billion £ in fees going out. This is simply because not much time has passed. The question should rather what happens if the UK rejoins in 10 or 20 years time; how will things look different then from both the UK and EU perspective.

[don'tbesilly]

heebeegeetee said:

don'tbesilly said:

Why move the goalposts to what was originally being discussed?

We were specifically talking about problems with staff, the discussion you started with your extract from the Telegraph in regards to EasyJet’s staffing issues.

It’s clear that the issues (staffing) in and across Europe are no different to the issues being experienced in the UK despite and according to you, that across Europe they can move people around.

It’s clear that despite such a solution being available in Europe, the solution isn’t a solution because there isn’t the resource available.

Essentially then, FOM doesn't exist, if it's completely ineffective.

I mean, did Polish people come here or not, did they have any effect on our society at all, or not?

That's not what I was suggesting but you know that.

It's certainly ineffective right now, hence the problems in Germany (see original link in regards to Lufthansa) and the problems in the Netherlands (link provided), these are also not isolated incidents it's similar in Spain & the Balearics.

https://www.majorcadailybulletin.com/news/local/20...

https://metro.co.uk/2022/05/31/brits-warned-they-c...

Now, about these solutions you mentioned?

[TriumphStag3.0V8]

heebeegeetee said:

FiF said:

I'll regret this but what's all this about 10-14 visas.

.

Just to save you going any further - in the event of a trade war. I'm told that in the event of a trade war, we lose our 90/180 day allowance, that visas have to be applied for individual country, can take up to 3 months and I don't know the cost.

If you can clarify that would be great, but I'm only talking of in the event of a trade war as Boris seems to be struggling to get Brexit done.

So in the event of a trade war, they will dissolve the Shengen area?

[heebeegeetee]

don'tbesilly said:

That's not what I was suggesting but you know that.

It's certainly ineffective right now, hence the problems in Germany (see original link in regards to Lufthansa) and the problems in the Netherlands (link provided), these are also not isolated incidents it's similar in Spain & the Balearics.

https://www.majorcadailybulletin.com/news/local/20...

https://metro.co.uk/2022/05/31/brits-warned-they-c...

Now, about these solutions you mentioned?

Leaving aside that you're comparing a country to a continent, and even if you were just comparing to EU, that's one nation v 27, and these seem to be sporadic throughout the continent, either FOM is there or it isn't. Whatever happens, they have FOM to combat staff shortages with and we don't.

If you're saying FOM makes no difference then what were we complaining about? You can't pick and choose, either it's there or it isn't.

You seem to be saying that us not having FOM makes no difference to us, whereas others are saying that the lack of FOM is what caused our staff shortages.

We all know that negative press about the EU helps sell news, and they piled it on for 45 years. It's the same with cycling, as it happens. Just today there's a leading, alarming headline but when you read the article there is no news on this topic at all. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10949121/...

Those saying that Europe has the same problems as UK are in cloud cuckoo land imo, as I say, before any of the current malaise began we were 40-50 years out of date in terms of infrastructure imo.

Btw - 4-5 weeks ago I was suddenly struck by a major problem with my knee. Turned out to be hemarthrosis but all I knew at the time was I was in excruciating pain and couldn't move (the bleed pushes muscle, ligament and knee cap out of place). I was also distressed because I thought my prosthetic joint had come apart and that I could be facing years of wait for operation and pain and so on, and that my lifestyle was suddenly massively screwed. It was bloody terrible at the time.

I couldn't get an ambulance. I was told 3 hours, and I waited 3 hours, in absolute agony and distress. At 3 hours they told me 7 hours.

So we got on the phone and I got some friends round, one of whom happened to have a wheel chair, and we got me in the back of my old Nissan Xtrail, which I can lie down in the back. Without that car, I don't know what I would have done.

To me, this is third world stuff.

Then I got to hospital, which was another story.

None of this is in the news. I think it would have been headline news once upon a time but now it's somewhat the norm. The point of all this is that I don't think we know how bad things are in this country, so I'm not going to be told by people trying to tell me how bad it is elsewhere.

[alabbasi]

It would be nice if they could switch the country to LHD like everywhere else.

[crankedup5]

Evanivitch said:

crankedup5 said:

New chemicals to be added to the list, I looked upon the issue of assessing the chemical before its uses. Sixty new jobs with more to come, sounds good to me. Of course I am very aware that chemicals do have a broad range of uses in our everyday lives. Pleased to see you acknowledge our agility and expertise when critical situations to public health demand such agility,
The U.K. will adapt itself to life outside of the EU, but it will not be an overnight issue. I’m pleased that we are out, I take the view that the longer we stayed in the more difficult our exit would have become.

I get the impression that you've either never used Agile in an engineering or project context, or you just consider it a buzzword for your own personal trumpeting.

Ironic that you celebrate the creation of 60 jobs purely to duplicate the work already done in the EU. All hail unnecessary bureaucracy.

Correct never been involved in engineering nor project context. I had to look up on Google for some basic info’.That you find that to be something to criticise is a shame on you. I took the time and trouble to have at least a minimum of understanding of whatever it is your sulking over.

[crankedup5]

heebeegeetee said:

crankedup5 said:

heebeegeetee said:

crankedup5 said:

Yes I agree, in my last post I was going to add that the two year virtual shutdown of the World,
blah de blah, but it seems that it falls on deaf ears. Not saying that Evantitch would dismiss the point, perhaps he may accept it as reasonable.
Looking at the post regarding our current problems in transport, quick to ‘diss’ the U.K. whilst completely ignoring the self same problem across mainland Europe.

If it's the self same problem (the numerous links seem to refer to one airport on a continent), then FOM couldn't have made any difference, so what's the problem with it?

Mainland Europe have many of the same problems as U.K. regarding staff shortages within the industry that you highlighted earlier in the thread.
FOM a is not alleviating their self same staffing issues. So where are the benefits of FOM to that industry?

Exactly. If FOM is ineffectual, why worry about it, why campaign against it, why stop it, and how about we stop talking about EU workers going home etc, because clearly they made no difference when they were here, they obviously contributed nothing.

This is of course, completely the opposite of what was being said during the referendum campaign. I know many people, I believe cranked is also one, who were concerned about immigration, but now we are being told that FOM makes no difference.

You are forgetting the referendum was six years ago, we all live in a very different World now. It’s like you are somehow stuck on 2016.

[crankedup5]

gazapc said:

Brexit is the action of leaving the EU. The benefits largely occur in the medium and longer term as the UK deviates from the point at which it left. Whether you think those benefits outweight the costs is obviously a point of discussion.

This evolving nature is the same as the EU itself, which pushed towards closer integration, further treaties etc.... What the UK voted 6 years ago to leave is not the same as in 10 years time.

So if we rejoined tomorrow, probably not much would be noticed (unless the historical opt outs such as the Euro were not reinstated) apart from a few more billion £ in fees going out. This is simply because not much time has passed. The question should rather what happens if the UK rejoins in 10 or 20 years time; how will things look different then from both the UK and EU perspective.

Many of us have tried to explain this to remoaners, sadly they do not seem to be able to grasp the simple facts, they want to turn back the clock to 2015.

[heebeegeetee]

crankedup5 said:

You are forgetting the referendum was six years ago, we all live in a very different World now. It’s like you are somehow stuck on 2016.

FOM was fully with us until early 2020, making no difference to our lives whatsoever, obvs.

[FiF]

crankedup5 said:

Many of us have tried to explain this to remoaners, sadly they do not seem to be able to grasp the simple facts, they want to turn back the clock to 2015.

And it's why I've removed myself from almost all of the Brexit threads.

You try to have a discussion based on facts, and then the goalposts are changed to try and get a win.

Examples, "ah yes that's a general positive, but you need to identify a positive change that affects you as an individual" or
"OK that's a bit niche and personal, what about something general." or
"well in the event of a trade war..." based on some random speculation from wherever.

Sealions. Not going to engage with it.

[Crackie]

heebeegeetee said:

don'tbesilly said:

Why move the goalposts to what was originally being discussed?

We were specifically talking about problems with staff, the discussion you started with your extract from the Telegraph in regards to EasyJet’s staffing issues.

It’s clear that the issues (staffing) in and across Europe are no different to the issues being experienced in the UK despite and according to you, that across Europe they can move people around.

It’s clear that despite such a solution being available in Europe, the solution isn’t a solution because there isn’t the resource available.

Essentially then, FOM doesn't exist, if it's completely ineffective.

I mean, did Polish people come here or not, did they have any effect on our society at all, or not?

Other than you..........Who is suggesting FOM doesn't exist?

The consequences of FOM, in combination with the Euro, were predicted, extremely accurately, 30 years ago by 62 German economists who wrote an open letter to government detailing their concerns and warning against a common currency.



That same year Margaret Thatcher made a prophetic prediction regarding the growth of extremist parties and mass immigration as a consequence of FOM in conjunction with the Euro.

"If the divergence between different European economies is so great that even the ERM cannot contain them, how would those economies react to a single European currency?

The answer is that there would be chaos of the sort which would make the difficulties of recent days pale by comparison. Huge sums would have to be transferred from richer to poorer countries and regions to allow them to take the strain. Even then unemployment and mass migration across now open frontiers would follow. And a full-fledged Single currency would allow no escape hatch.

The political consequences can already be glimpsed: the growth of extremist parties, battening on fears about mass immigration and unemployment, offering a real — if thoroughly unwelcome — alternative to the Euro-centrist political establishment.

If in addition you were to create a supra-national European federation, and the people could no longer hold their national parliaments to account, extremism could only grow further.

It is time for the European politicians to sit up and take note. Time to stop their endless rounds of summits — summitry is fast becoming a substitute for decision-making — and observe the reality around them.

There is a growing sense of remoteness, an alienation of people from their institutions of government and their political leaders. There is a fear that the European train will thunder forward, laden with its customary cargo of gravy, towards a destination neither wished nor understood by electorates. But the train can be stopped."
_

1992 Sep 19 Sa, Margaret Thatcher.
Speech to CNN World Economic Development Conference.

Here is Mark Blyth's take on the consequences of the Euro and FOM........................plus what he thought the Brexit ref was about. The vid clip was recorded, in Greece, prior to the referendum.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwK0jeJ8wxg

Brexit was always going to happen................just a case of when. At the time of the referendum, on balance, I thought there were still more pros to being in but still voted to leave.

Edited by Crackie on Friday 24th June 15:16

[768]

I think some still struggle with the concept that they don't personally need convincing. That no matter how far wrong they think the demos was, that the ship has sailed, they failed to make convincing enough arguments to win the vote. And consequently they're Brexiters too now.

[FiF]

768 said:

I think some still struggle with the concept that they don't personally need convincing. That no matter how far wrong they think the demos was, that the ship has sailed, they failed to make convincing enough arguments to win the vote. And consequently they're Brexiters too now.

Well that says a lot. I was desperate to hear a silver bullet argument for staying in, but it never arrived. In reality there was never much of an attempt to make such a case.

[crankedup5]

heebeegeetee said:

crankedup5 said:

You are forgetting the referendum was six years ago, we all live in a very different World now. It’s like you are somehow stuck on 2016.

FOM was fully with us until early 2020, making no difference to our lives whatsoever, obvs.

Well it’s no longer with us now, maybe the sooner you accept that and adjust yourself to the new U.K. the better you may feel, or not perhaps. We are not going back to 2015 no matter how much you may wish that were to happen. I won’t even bother to comment on your ‘no difference’ platitude.

[rambo19]

Ouroboros said:

Flexibility of making choices on UK lives, without massive bureaucracy and political point making.

I think the stupid rules the EU loves, the stupid EU army would be hard for most to swallow.

I honestly can't see many positives to rejoining.

What can you do now, that you could not whilst the UK was in the EU?