How About Another EU Referendum?

How About Another EU Referendum?

Poll: How About Another EU Referendum?

Total Members Polled: 462

Oh no - not again - I'm abstaining: 11%
Yes please: 29%
Absolutely not: 60%
Author
Discussion

Abdul Abulbul Amir

13,179 posts

211 months

Tuesday 28th June 2022
quotequote all
Magnum 475 said:
Abdul Abulbul Amir said:
Exactly, I'm pretty sure travel to see grandparents to the EU is still allowed.

The UK has been the major belligerent force against European dictators for the last 200 years, it would have been far more advantageous for Putin for this to be nullified under an ineffective EU leadership with other members shirking their spend commitments. UVDL as chief of staff rofl even Russian tanks would stand up to broom handles.

As for the putting the UK armed forces and nuclear deterrent under Brussels' control. No thanks, I want this under a democratically elected government.
Travel is allowed, however we now have the '90 days in every 180 days rule' about how much time we can spend in the EU, or EU citizens can spend in the UK. As our kids are in Independent school and have significantly more holiday than those in state school, this is creating problems that didn't exist before.

The EU military is an interesting point though. As Putin becomes more aggressive, a united EU military would be advantageous as part of a large deterrent. However, NATO seems to be doing a reasonable job of bolstering Ukraine for the moment. Anyone who thinks Putin's ambitions stop at a small part of Ukraine is deluded - his ultimate ambition is to retake pretty much everything that formed the USSR.

I find your comment about a "democratically elected government" vaguely amusing though smile. Almost as if the European parliament isn't democratically elected. Let's face it, the EU governance is every bit as democratic as the UK's governance system, except for one tiny detail. In the EU, there is no non-elected House of Lords - the elected members have the final say.
Nope the EU parliament is a smoke screen to pretend to the masses that democracy is retained, when in reality it's a sham.

Great that you think NATO seems to be doing doing a reasonable job...who the hell do you think has countered the Russian threat since ww2....it wasnt Germany and France.

ETA
The elected members have the final say in the UK btw.

Mrr T

12,151 posts

264 months

Tuesday 28th June 2022
quotequote all
Magnum 475 said:
Travel is allowed, however we now have the '90 days in every 180 days rule' about how much time we can spend in the EU, or EU citizens can spend in the UK. As our kids are in Independent school and have significantly more holiday than those in state school, this is creating problems that didn't exist before.
As I have posted above it more complex than that. I have posted the rules. Any questions please ask. Moving into the EU with an EU wife is now one of my specialist subjects.

Murph7355

37,647 posts

255 months

Tuesday 28th June 2022
quotequote all
Zumbruk said:
Murph7355 said:
You're just repeating the same old ... arguments.
That's because they're still true. And always will be.
As will the counterpoints.

And most pertinently, that this will never end smile

Zumbruk

7,848 posts

259 months

Tuesday 28th June 2022
quotequote all
Murph7355 said:
Zumbruk said:
Murph7355 said:
You're just repeating the same old ... arguments.
That's because they're still true. And always will be.
As will the counterpoints.
Yes, but they were deranged lies during the referendum and still are. There are no benefits to Brexit. Not one.

Murph7355 said:
And most pertinently, that this will never end smile
At least not until the Quitlings have all died of old age.

Mrr T

12,151 posts

264 months

Tuesday 28th June 2022
quotequote all
Abdul Abulbul Amir said:
Nope the EU parliament is a smoke screen to pretend to the masses that democracy is retained, when in reality it's a sham.

Great that you think NATO seems to be doing doing a reasonable job...who the hell do you think has countered the Russian threat since ww2....it wasnt Germany and France.

ETA
The elected members have the final say in the UK btw.
Where as the UK parliament where a 43% share of votes gives you a massive majority is clearly the pinnacle of democracy.

As for keeping Russia in check. The UK also only played a bit part compared to the US.

paulrockliffe

15,639 posts

226 months

Tuesday 28th June 2022
quotequote all
Mrr T said:
Where as the UK parliament where a 43% share of votes gives you a massive majority is clearly the pinnacle of democracy.
Why should this not be the case?

The cause is alignment of representation to geography, with geography generally being taken as a proxy for subgroups of people that have a lot in common and share a lot of the same issues so benefit from having a single person making the case for them about their issues.

It's much more representative than my MP being someone I have nothing in common with that is also representing another 100,000 people that I have nothing in common with.

Zumbruk

7,848 posts

259 months

Tuesday 28th June 2022
quotequote all
paulrockliffe said:
Mrr T said:
Where as the UK parliament where a 43% share of votes gives you a massive majority is clearly the pinnacle of democracy.
Why should this not be the case?

The cause is alignment of representation to geography, with geography generally being taken as a proxy for subgroups of people that have a lot in common and share a lot of the same issues so benefit from having a single person making the case for them about their issues.

It's much more representative than my MP being someone I have nothing in common with that is also representing another 100,000 people that I have nothing in common with.
"45% of voters unrepresented, as millions of votes wasted under winner-takes-all system. The ERS say voters have been ‘disenfranchised on a mass scale’. "

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/latest-news-an...

Abdul Abulbul Amir

13,179 posts

211 months

Tuesday 28th June 2022
quotequote all
Mrr T said:
Abdul Abulbul Amir said:
Nope the EU parliament is a smoke screen to pretend to the masses that democracy is retained, when in reality it's a sham.

Great that you think NATO seems to be doing doing a reasonable job...who the hell do you think has countered the Russian threat since ww2....it wasnt Germany and France.

ETA
The elected members have the final say in the UK btw.
Where as the UK parliament where a 43% share of votes gives you a massive majority is clearly the pinnacle of democracy.

As for keeping Russia in check. The UK also only played a bit part compared to the US.
If the electorate wish to change the electoral system they can. The biggest victim of fptp ironically has been UKIP.

Agree that the US has played the biggest part in European peace since WW2, amazingly in 2016 Remainers had the audacity to suggest it was the EU, thanks for agreeing on this.

Mrr T

12,151 posts

264 months

Tuesday 28th June 2022
quotequote all
paulrockliffe said:
Mrr T said:
Where as the UK parliament where a 43% share of votes gives you a massive majority is clearly the pinnacle of democracy.
Why should this not be the case?

The cause is alignment of representation to geography, with geography generally being taken as a proxy for subgroups of people that have a lot in common and share a lot of the same issues so benefit from having a single person making the case for them about their issues.

It's much more representative than my MP being someone I have nothing in common with that is also representing another 100,000 people that I have nothing in common with.
I have no idea what you are posting about.

A democracy is a country governed by representatives of the majority of the population. The UK is a country governed by representatives of 43% of votes. This means 57% of the population wanted some one else in government. The FPP system means 70% of the population have no real vote.

The EU Parliment is democratically elected but has limited power. The UK Parliament is not democratically elected but has all powers.



paulrockliffe

15,639 posts

226 months

Tuesday 28th June 2022
quotequote all
Zumbruk said:
paulrockliffe said:
Mrr T said:
Where as the UK parliament where a 43% share of votes gives you a massive majority is clearly the pinnacle of democracy.
Why should this not be the case?

The cause is alignment of representation to geography, with geography generally being taken as a proxy for subgroups of people that have a lot in common and share a lot of the same issues so benefit from having a single person making the case for them about their issues.

It's much more representative than my MP being someone I have nothing in common with that is also representing another 100,000 people that I have nothing in common with.
"45% of voters unrepresented, as millions of votes wasted under winner-takes-all system. The ERS say voters have been ‘disenfranchised on a mass scale’. "

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/latest-news-an...
There's no election system that gives everyone the MP they want. Obviously. If 45% didn't get the MP they wanted, that means 55% did, which sounds about right to me?

If you're 'unrepresented' - You're not, you still have an MP - it means most people that live near you disagree with you. This happens. But there are other MPs that agree with you and will argue for things you agree with as well. Perhaps MPs that agree with you are even the Government.

Why is this a problem?

paulrockliffe

15,639 posts

226 months

Tuesday 28th June 2022
quotequote all
Mrr T said:
paulrockliffe said:
Mrr T said:
Where as the UK parliament where a 43% share of votes gives you a massive majority is clearly the pinnacle of democracy.
Why should this not be the case?

The cause is alignment of representation to geography, with geography generally being taken as a proxy for subgroups of people that have a lot in common and share a lot of the same issues so benefit from having a single person making the case for them about their issues.

It's much more representative than my MP being someone I have nothing in common with that is also representing another 100,000 people that I have nothing in common with.
I have no idea what you are posting about.

A democracy is a country governed by representatives of the majority of the population. The UK is a country governed by representatives of 43% of votes. This means 57% of the population wanted some one else in government. The FPP system means 70% of the population have no real vote.

The EU Parliment is democratically elected but has limited power. The UK Parliament is not democratically elected but has all powers.
That isn't the definition of a democracy, try the definition everyone else is using:

"a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives."

Abdul Abulbul Amir

13,179 posts

211 months

Tuesday 28th June 2022
quotequote all
Mrr T said:
.

The EU Parliment is democratically elected but has limited power. The UK Parliament is not democratically elected but has all powers.
PR using the list system isn't that democratic. EU parliament uses a flawed process and has no power. Great for pretending to the great unwashed though. A complete sham.

Murph7355

37,647 posts

255 months

Tuesday 28th June 2022
quotequote all
Zumbruk said:
Murph7355 said:
Zumbruk said:
Murph7355 said:
You're just repeating the same old ... arguments.
That's because they're still true. And always will be.
As will the counterpoints.
Yes, but they were deranged lies during the referendum and still are. There are no benefits to Brexit. Not one.

Murph7355 said:
And most pertinently, that this will never end smile
At least not until the Quitlings have all died of old age.
Awww bless you.

You would know "deranged" it seems...

Murph7355

37,647 posts

255 months

Tuesday 28th June 2022
quotequote all
Mrr T said:
I have no idea what you are posting about.

A democracy is a country governed by representatives of the majority of the population. The UK is a country governed by representatives of 43% of votes. This means 57% of the population wanted some one else in government. The FPP system means 70% of the population have no real vote.

The EU Parliment is democratically elected but has limited power. The UK Parliament is not democratically elected but has all powers.
This is just you playing semantics as normal.

When there are multiple parties to vote for, and the option not bother at all as well as spoiling your vote, explain how your semantic position could provide any other sort of result....

Zumbruk

7,848 posts

259 months

Tuesday 28th June 2022
quotequote all
Abdul Abulbul Amir said:
Mrr T said:
.

The EU Parliment is democratically elected but has limited power. The UK Parliament is not democratically elected but has all powers.
PR using the list system isn't that democratic. EU parliament uses a flawed process and has no power. Great for pretending to the great unwashed though. A complete sham.
Doesn't that jerking knee bother you? It is hilarious to watch, though.

Zumbruk

7,848 posts

259 months

Tuesday 28th June 2022
quotequote all
paulrockliffe said:
There's no election system that gives everyone the MP they want. Obviously. If 45% didn't get the MP they wanted, that means 55% did, which sounds about right to me?

If you're 'unrepresented' - You're not, you still have an MP - it means most people that live near you disagree with you. This happens. But there are other MPs that agree with you and will argue for things you agree with as well. Perhaps MPs that agree with you are even the Government.

Why is this a problem?
Hypocrisy, much? You've argued in the last few minutes both against and for having "your" MP be someone near you and not near you.

Zumbruk

7,848 posts

259 months

Tuesday 28th June 2022
quotequote all
Murph7355 said:
Awww bless you.

You would know "deranged" it seems...
Immediate resort to 'ad hominem' duly noted.

Abdul Abulbul Amir

13,179 posts

211 months

Tuesday 28th June 2022
quotequote all
Zumbruk said:
Abdul Abulbul Amir said:
Mrr T said:
.

The EU Parliment is democratically elected but has limited power. The UK Parliament is not democratically elected but has all powers.
PR using the list system isn't that democratic. EU parliament uses a flawed process and has no power. Great for pretending to the great unwashed though. A complete sham.
Doesn't that jerking knee bother you? It is hilarious to watch, though.
I don't describe the erosion of one's democratic rights as a jerking knee, but either way, not anymore as we're out.

crankedup5

9,248 posts

34 months

Tuesday 28th June 2022
quotequote all
It’s amusing listening to the Lib-Dem leaders squirm when asked about their policy to join the EU Single Market. Apparently it’s going to be a four part strategy now and answers to the question of being in the SM means a return to FOM go unanswered.
How can the electorate consider voting for such limp lettuces that are frightened to spell out what their own proposed manifesto will mean in political and practical terms. Or is it because they think the electorate are stupid/thick.

Mrr T

12,151 posts

264 months

Tuesday 28th June 2022
quotequote all
Abdul Abulbul Amir said:
If the electorate wish to change the electoral system they can. The biggest victim of fptp ironically has been UKIP.
In my life time we have had twice as many votes on the EU as on the voting system. And the one vote we did get on the electoral system Nick choose the option which would have guaranteed the LD in power for ever. Neither of the big parties have any interest in changing a broken system.

As for UKIP being the biggest victim you should check there numbers against the LD.

Now I do believe under a PR system Nige and a couple of mates would have got into parliament. It might surprise you but I think that would have been good for the UK democracy. First it would have made UKIP actually have real policies. UKIP did not even have a policy on how to leave the EU.