Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 4)

[Mrr T]

don'tbesilly said:

Mrr T said:

The ERG are using this claim to suggest they are still relevant. But the 48 tories did not abstain they failed to vote for reasons unknow. Some may have wished to express discontent but they also included 2 ministers Grant Shapps and Mims Davies also David Mundell and Maria Miller neither of whom are on the ERG wing.

Lol

Or it could just mean they had something else to do and where not needed.

[S600BSB]

Mrr T said:

Oh goody 2 new trade deals which according to the governments own analysis will increase UK GDP in 2035 by 0.08% and 0.03%.

It's clear from that brexit is a success and sunny uplands are just around the corner.

That corner that seems to just go on and on and on...

[Mortarboard]

Mrr T said:

Or it could just mean they had something else to do and where not needed.

Which they clearly weren't. Silly being silly again.

M.

[crankedup5]

HM-2 said:

crankedup5 said:

The Tories have always been a broad church

Historically yes, but definitely not since the Brexit vote. The aggressive purging of any pro-EU figures from the party hardly speaks to "broad church" does it?

The brexit vote brought out MPs from all political parties discovering their ability to disregard the National referendum. Very toxic and very revealing.
Possibly the most divisive political debate in my lifetime, seeing MPs desire to ignore a democratic vote.
I agree that the broad church was a divided congregation regarding this one issue.

[S600BSB]

crankedup5 said:

HM-2 said:

crankedup5 said:

The Tories have always been a broad church

Historically yes, but definitely not since the Brexit vote. The aggressive purging of any pro-EU figures from the party hardly speaks to "broad church" does it?

The brexit vote brought out MPs from all political parties discovering their ability to disregard the National referendum. Very toxic and very revealing.
Possibly the most divisive political debate in my lifetime, seeing MPs desire to ignore a democratic vote.
I agree that the broad church was a divided congregation regarding this one issue.

The one nation tories are now a long way from the right wing loons on a whole range issues - social, economic etc. The idea of a broad church is dead.

[crankedup5]

S600BSB said:

crankedup5 said:

HM-2 said:

crankedup5 said:

The Tories have always been a broad church

Historically yes, but definitely not since the Brexit vote. The aggressive purging of any pro-EU figures from the party hardly speaks to "broad church" does it?

The brexit vote brought out MPs from all political parties discovering their ability to disregard the National referendum. Very toxic and very revealing.
Possibly the most divisive political debate in my lifetime, seeing MPs desire to ignore a democratic vote.
I agree that the broad church was a divided congregation regarding this one issue.

The one nation tories are now a long way from the right wing loons on a whole range issues - social, economic etc. The idea of a broad church is dead.

I disagree, sure some MPs do have a stronger pov on some issues, but the vast majority still conform to the whip when required. Nowhere near as bad as Labour who seem to bend in the breeze to please.

[Mortarboard]

One man's conformance to the democratic will of the people is another man's bending in the breeze, it seems.

M.

[loafer123]

Mortarboard said:

One man's conformance to the democratic will of the people is another man's bending in the breeze, it seems.

M.

[S600BSB]

crankedup5 said:

I disagree, sure some MPs do have a stronger pov on some issues, but the vast majority still conform to the whip when required. Nowhere near as bad as Labour who seem to bend in the breeze to please.

The continuum of views within the tory Party is as wide as that between the tories and Labour. Try telling the sensible one nation wing - Tobias Ellwood et al - that they share the views of ERG loons like Mark Francois or Jacob Rees-Mogg!

[crankedup5]

S600BSB said:

crankedup5 said:

I disagree, sure some MPs do have a stronger pov on some issues, but the vast majority still conform to the whip when required. Nowhere near as bad as Labour who seem to bend in the breeze to please.

The continuum of views within the tory Party is as wide as that between the tories and Labour. Try telling the sensible one nation wing - Tobias Ellwood et al - that they share the views of ERG loons like Mark Francois or Jacob Rees-Mogg!

I didn’t say ‘share the views’ and you are making my point for me now. The ERG are a tiny proportion of the Conservative Parliament. The hugely divisive brexit debacle certainly brought out the differing views within the Conservative and Labour Parties. Lib - Dems not so much, so few MPs and the main policy was pro EU.
I come back to my original point - a diverse range of opinion is a good thing and the whip still sees the majority vote with Government. For me that makes good Government, I would not want to see sheeple and enjoy hearing other pov.

[S600BSB]

crankedup5 said:

I didn’t say ‘share the views’ and you are making my point for me now. The ERG are a tiny proportion of the Conservative Parliament. The hugely divisive brexit debacle certainly brought out the differing views within the Conservative and Labour Parties. Lib - Dems not so much, so few MPs and the main policy was pro EU.
I come back to my original point - a diverse range of opinion is a good thing and the whip still sees the majority vote with Government. For me that makes good Government, I would not want to see sheeple and enjoy hearing other pov.

Ok Crank.

[bitchstewie]

Like rats in a sack.

[HM-2]

crankedup5 said:

HM-2 said:

crankedup5 said:

The Tories have always been a broad church

Historically yes, but definitely not since the Brexit vote. The aggressive purging of any pro-EU figures from the party hardly speaks to "broad church" does it?

The brexit vote brought out MPs from all political parties discovering their ability to disregard the National referendum. Very toxic and very revealing.

For what seems like the one billionth time, MPs are beholden only to their constituents. There is not, and should not be, any expectation they would vote against the views and interests of their constituents regardless of the outcome of a national referendum.

You are yet again demonstrating you don't really understand how electoral politics works.

[crankedup5]

HM-2 said:

crankedup5 said:

HM-2 said:

crankedup5 said:

The Tories have always been a broad church

Historically yes, but definitely not since the Brexit vote. The aggressive purging of any pro-EU figures from the party hardly speaks to "broad church" does it?

The brexit vote brought out MPs from all political parties discovering their ability to disregard the National referendum. Very toxic and very revealing.

For what seems like the one billionth time, MPs are beholden only to their constituents. There is not, and should not be, any expectation they would vote against the views and interests of their constituents regardless of the outcome of a national referendum.

You are yet again demonstrating you don't really understand how electoral politics works.

In principle that’s all fine and dandy, the reality was the Government had responsibility to ensure that the referendum result was enacted. We can all dance around the semantics and shout about people not knowing how electoral politics works, well it worked for me and 17.4 million likeminded folk all those years ago. That’s democracy.

[HM-2]

crankedup5 said:

In principle that’s all fine and dandy

It's not "in principle", it's literally the rules by which MPs are sworn to abide.

crankedup5 said:

the reality was the Government had responsibility to ensure that the referendum result was enacted.

You appear not to understand the difference between Parliament and government.

crankedup5 said:

We can all dance around the semantics and shout about people not knowing how electoral politics works

Mindlessly parroting ERG rhetoric doesn't magically make my argument, which you've failed entirely to rebut, invalid.

[crankedup5]

HM-2 said:

crankedup5 said:

In principle that’s all fine and dandy

It's not "in principle", it's literally the rules by which MPs are sworn to abide.

crankedup5 said:

the reality was the Government had responsibility to ensure that the referendum result was enacted.

You appear not to understand the difference between Parliament and government.

crankedup5 said:

We can all dance around the semantics and shout about people not knowing how electoral politics works

Mindlessly parroting ERG rhetoric doesn't magically make my argument, which you've failed entirely to rebut, invalid.

Sadly for you, all the posturing and manoeuvring performed by MPs following the 2016 referendum proved to be toilet bowl value, thanks Boris. You fail to understand that ‘your argument’ was lost in 2019.

[vaud]

Mrr T said:

Or it could just mean they had something else to do and where not needed.

Or they were paired for various reasons with their counterpart?

[HM-2]

crankedup5 said:

Sadly for you, all the posturing and manoeuvring performed by MPs following the 2016 referendum proved to be toilet bowl value, thanks Boris.

Are you going to actually respond directly to anything I've said, or just post irrelevancies all evening? I'm far from convinced you're even capable of comprehending what my argument is, given this feeble display. It's almost unsporting.

[don'tbesilly]

Mrr T said:

don'tbesilly said:

Mrr T said:

The ERG are using this claim to suggest they are still relevant. But the 48 tories did not abstain they failed to vote for reasons unknow. Some may have wished to express discontent but they also included 2 ministers Grant Shapps and Mims Davies also David Mundell and Maria Miller neither of whom are on the ERG wing.

Lol

Or it could just mean they had something else to do and where not needed.

Seems you don’t understand the tweets and have no clue as to the significance of a three line whip.

[Mrr T]

don'tbesilly said:

Mrr T said:

don'tbesilly said:

Mrr T said:

The ERG are using this claim to suggest they are still relevant. But the 48 tories did not abstain they failed to vote for reasons unknow. Some may have wished to express discontent but they also included 2 ministers Grant Shapps and Mims Davies also David Mundell and Maria Miller neither of whom are on the ERG wing.

Lol

Or it could just mean they had something else to do and where not needed.

Seems you don’t understand the tweets and have no clue as to the significance of a three line whip.

I know what a three line whip is but as they say there are three line whips and three line whips.

The only people who seem to be making the same claim as you are the ERG but no one is listening mainly because the list of those who where adsent from the vote contains minister and goverment loyalist.