Gary Lineker

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ZedLeg

12,278 posts

107 months

Monday 20th March 2023
quotequote all
crankedup5 said:
What other Government policies seemingly align with any Nazi connotations?
What does that have to so with what I said?

You said something stupid and I pointed out why it was stupid.

crankedup5

9,248 posts

34 months

Monday 20th March 2023
quotequote all
ZedLeg said:
crankedup5 said:
What other Government policies seemingly align with any Nazi connotations?
What does that have to so with what I said?

You said something stupid and I pointed out why it was stupid.
Answer the question.

crankedup5

9,248 posts

34 months

Monday 20th March 2023
quotequote all
Mrr T said:
crankedup5 said:
Mrr T said:
crankedup5 said:
monthou said:
crankedup5 said:
You’re certainly not winning me over to your side of this division, and that is what matters isn’t it ?
How many minds do you think you've changed?
Strange, I haven’t set out to change anybodies mindset, why would I want or need to do that when my elected Government has the issue as a manifesto promise?
What manifesto promise was that?

https://www.conservatives.com/our-plan
That comes under the third bullet point on the link that you provided, thanks.
The third point is about a points based immigration system. Absolutely nothing to do with asylum seekers. Which is covered briefly elsewhere when the tory promise to maintain the obligation under international treaties.
Nope, it includes control of our borders, what’s so difficult in that simple concept that you fail to understand?

ZedLeg

12,278 posts

107 months

Monday 20th March 2023
quotequote all
I don’t know and considering (as several people pointed out already) it’s not the policy that was compared to the nazis but the language used it seems irrelevant.

Gweeds

7,791 posts

51 months

Monday 20th March 2023
quotequote all
crankedup5 said:
Next you will be telling me it’s all lies, leftie lawyers haven’t been all over the proposals doing their best to thwart Government proposals.
You’re doing all my work for me here. Even the poorest in mooting would chew you up laugh

bitchstewie

50,767 posts

209 months

Monday 20th March 2023
quotequote all
crankedup5 said:
Next you will be telling me it’s all lies, leftie lawyers haven’t been all over the proposals doing their best to thwart Government proposals.
Those "leftie lawyers" have been ensuring people get the legal representation they're entitled to.

The same sort of legal representation you or I would probably quite like if we ever found ourselves needing it.

It isn't the job of lawyers to be nice to the Government or to pander to their wishes.

If a Government can't come up with policies and laws that stand up to legal scrutiny perhaps ask yourself why that is instead of parroting a bunch of dog whistle rhetoric about "leftie lawyers".

crankedup5

9,248 posts

34 months

Monday 20th March 2023
quotequote all
ZedLeg said:
I don’t know and considering (as several people pointed out already) it’s not the policy that was compared to the nazis but the language used it seems irrelevant.
Fair enough.

andymadmak

14,482 posts

269 months

Monday 20th March 2023
quotequote all
HM-2 said:
"You can't possibly compare anything with Nazi Germany, ever" is an idiotic insistence that multiple posters have made, and yet not one of them has ever backed up with anything resembling a coherent reason as to why. Apparently it's just not allowed.
Who are you quoting there? I've not read the thread in detail, but in the bits I read I have't seen anyone say that.
For my own part I don't think it's accurate to compare 2023 UK with 1930s Germany, but that's just my opinion.

To answer your second point, I think he shouldn't have used such inflammatory language precisely because it detracts from the point I think he was making, which is that Government policy towards migrants is unacceptable to him (and many others) Rightly or wrongly, language or policy, any invocation of 1930s Germany is going to inevitably descend into discussing the Nazis and their policies and their history. There is no way on this planet that the UK in 2023 is anything like Germany during the rise of the Nazis, but using that language means we are talking about that comparison and not talking about the Government migrant/refugee policies.

Gweeds

7,791 posts

51 months

Monday 20th March 2023
quotequote all
bhstewie said:
Those "leftie lawyers" have been ensuring people get the legal representation they're entitled to.

The same sort of legal representation you or I would probably quite like if we ever found ourselves needing it.

It isn't the job of lawyers to be nice to the Government or to pander to their wishes.

If a Government can't come up with policies and laws that stand up to legal scrutiny perhaps ask yourself why that is instead of parroting a bunch of dog whistle rhetoric about "leftie lawyers".
Well quite.

And of course Braverman is now claiming that anyone being sent to Rwanda is a ‘blessing’ for them because of the paradise they can look forward to.

Except of course the threat of being sent there shackled is meant to be a deterrent.

Both of these things can’t be true.

It’s like Schrödinger’s Moron.

Frik

13,542 posts

242 months

Monday 20th March 2023
quotequote all
andymadmak said:
Who are you quoting there? I've not read the thread in detail, but in the bits I read I have't seen anyone say that.
For my own part I don't think it's accurate to compare 2023 UK with 1930s Germany, but that's just my opinion.

To answer your second point, I think he shouldn't have used such inflammatory language precisely because it detracts from the point I think he was making, which is that Government policy towards migrants is unacceptable to him (and many others) Rightly or wrongly, language or policy, any invocation of 1930s Germany is going to inevitably descend into discussing the Nazis and their policies and their history. There is no way on this planet that the UK in 2023 is anything like Germany during the rise of the Nazis, but using that language means we are talking about that comparison and not talking about the Government migrant/refugee policies.
We did cover this earlier. I think comparisons to Nazi germany are problematic for the same reason. However he did specifically mention the language, not policy and it's difficult to argue against that specific point as the quote from Michael Rosen earlier highlights.

As for broader comparison, it's very easy to highlight why the UK in 2023 is different to Germany in the 1930s and overlook the similarities. I'll post the Mark Twain quote I posted earlier: "History never repeats itself, but it does often rhyme."

Electro1980

8,248 posts

138 months

Monday 20th March 2023
quotequote all
crankedup5 said:
Mrr T said:
crankedup5 said:
Mrr T said:
crankedup5 said:
monthou said:
crankedup5 said:
You’re certainly not winning me over to your side of this division, and that is what matters isn’t it ?
How many minds do you think you've changed?
Strange, I haven’t set out to change anybodies mindset, why would I want or need to do that when my elected Government has the issue as a manifesto promise?
What manifesto promise was that?

https://www.conservatives.com/our-plan
That comes under the third bullet point on the link that you provided, thanks.
The third point is about a points based immigration system. Absolutely nothing to do with asylum seekers. Which is covered briefly elsewhere when the tory promise to maintain the obligation under international treaties.
Nope, it includes control of our borders, what’s so difficult in that simple concept that you fail to understand?
“An Australian-style points-based system to control immigration.”

Absolutely nothing to do with asylum seekers. If anyone read that as being about asylum seekers they probably shouldn’t be voting.

HM-2

12,467 posts

168 months

Monday 20th March 2023
quotequote all
crankedup5 said:
ZedLeg said:
crankedup5 said:
What other Government policies seemingly align with any Nazi connotations?
What does that have to so with what I said?

You said something stupid and I pointed out why it was stupid.
Answer the question.
Why are you asking people to answer questions that have no relevance to what they've said? Or, indeed, to history?
Even by your standards this is getting a bit ridiculous.

valiant

10,064 posts

159 months

Monday 20th March 2023
quotequote all
HM-2 said:
crankedup5 said:
ZedLeg said:
crankedup5 said:
What other Government policies seemingly align with any Nazi connotations?
What does that have to so with what I said?

You said something stupid and I pointed out why it was stupid.
Answer the question.
Why are you asking people to answer questions that have no relevance to what they've said? Or, indeed, to history?
Even by your standards this is getting a bit ridiculous.
Especially when GL and others were comparing language used and not policies. No one mentioned any proposed policy change that could have any perceived Nazi overtones.

It’s almost as if some on here are confused about what the Daily Mail et al have told you to be angry about.


HM-2

12,467 posts

168 months

Monday 20th March 2023
quotequote all
It's the same in every other thread he posts in, but woe betide you if you call him out for the incessant and irrelevant nonsense he tends to post- you'll find yourself getting banned for a month for "bullying/harassment". rolleyes

TwigtheWonderkid

43,246 posts

149 months

Monday 20th March 2023
quotequote all
bhstewie said:
crankedup5 said:
Next you will be telling me it’s all lies, leftie lawyers haven’t been all over the proposals doing their best to thwart Government proposals.
Those "leftie lawyers" have been ensuring people get the legal representation they're entitled to.
"Leftie lawyers" seems to me to be a catch all term to describe lawyers who actually stop the govt from breaking the law.

Gweeds

7,791 posts

51 months

Monday 20th March 2023
quotequote all
Typical Daily Mail nonsense.

Mrr T

12,151 posts

264 months

Monday 20th March 2023
quotequote all
crankedup5 said:
Mrr T said:
crankedup5 said:
Mrr T said:
crankedup5 said:
monthou said:
crankedup5 said:
You’re certainly not winning me over to your side of this division, and that is what matters isn’t it ?
How many minds do you think you've changed?
Strange, I haven’t set out to change anybodies mindset, why would I want or need to do that when my elected Government has the issue as a manifesto promise?
What manifesto promise was that?

https://www.conservatives.com/our-plan
That comes under the third bullet point on the link that you provided, thanks.
The third point is about a points based immigration system. Absolutely nothing to do with asylum seekers. Which is covered briefly elsewhere when the tory promise to maintain the obligation under international treaties.
Nope, it includes control of our borders, what’s so difficult in that simple concept that you fail to understand?
Cranks the policy is about control of immigration it makes no mention of asylum seekers. The policy on asylum seekers is that the government will abide by its treaty obligations.

It's not complex.

HM-2

12,467 posts

168 months

Monday 20th March 2023
quotequote all
Mrr T said:
crankedup5 said:
Mrr T said:
crankedup5 said:
Mrr T said:
crankedup5 said:
monthou said:
crankedup5 said:
You’re certainly not winning me over to your side of this division, and that is what matters isn’t it ?
How many minds do you think you've changed?
Strange, I haven’t set out to change anybodies mindset, why would I want or need to do that when my elected Government has the issue as a manifesto promise?
What manifesto promise was that?

https://www.conservatives.com/our-plan
That comes under the third bullet point on the link that you provided, thanks.
The third point is about a points based immigration system. Absolutely nothing to do with asylum seekers. Which is covered briefly elsewhere when the tory promise to maintain the obligation under international treaties.
Nope, it includes control of our borders, what’s so difficult in that simple concept that you fail to understand?
Cranks the policy is about control of immigration it makes no mention of asylum seekers. The policy on asylum seekers is that the government will abide by its treaty obligations.

It's not complex.
It's clearly quite complex if you're a nodding dog who can only parrot sound bites.

cirian75

4,245 posts

232 months

Monday 20th March 2023
quotequote all
crankedup5 said:
ZedLeg said:
crankedup5 said:
What other Government policies seemingly align with any Nazi connotations?
What does that have to so with what I said?

You said something stupid and I pointed out why it was stupid.
Answer the question.
This might help




said:
Peter Hitchens challenged people (Gary Lineker in particular) to justify why Gary had said that he thought the language being used around asylum seekers/boat people (etc) was 'not dissimilar' (Gary's words) to that of Germany in the 1930s.

Note: Gary said 'not dissimilar' ie he wasn't claiming that it was identical. And he said 1930s,
which to be clear is not the 1940s.

I've assembled a short checklist: Rhetoric around citizenship and taking citizenship away from people eg Shamima Begum and
Windrush generation. 'Fremdenrecht' is a pre-Nazi idea but adopted by the Nazis to remove German citizenship from German Jews.

Removal of citizenship was called 'Ausbürgerung: By repeatedly declaring people 'illegal' before they've been tried, is 'not dissimilar to "Willensstrafrecht'. This was a punishment for criminal intent, not the crime itself. The law was called 'Täterstrafrecht'.
'Madagaskarplan' - the plan to ship Jews to Madagascar.

The idea of shipping "unwanted' people to other another country 'not dissimilar to the Rwanda scheme.

As an aside, the press have called shipping people to Rwanda as the 'Rwanda Plan' or the 'Rwanda Asylum Plan', unknowingly imitating 'Madagaskarplan', perhaps? Don't know if Ms SB
has expressed it as that.

Perhaps not.
Ms Braverman has used the phrase 'cultural Marxism'. This owes its origins to the Nazis' word 'Kulturbolschewismus' though Ms Braverman may only personally know its roots to US politics.

Ms Braverman and her colleagues are engaged in some kind of culture war(s). This is 'not dissimilar to the 'Kulturkrieg' which started before the Nazis but was very much engaged in by
the Nazis.

'60,000RM kostet dieser Erbkranke die Volksgemeinschaft auf Lebenzeit. Volksgenosse das ist auch dein Geld" = "This hereditarily ill person will cost our national community 60,000 Reichmarks over the course of his lifetime. Citizen, this is your money." This is an example of people seen as 'costing us!
Ms Braverman's persistent labelling of migrants as criminal (and/or the traffickers') even though many migrants are granted asylum is 'not dissimilar' to the Nazis' adoption of 'Asoziale' (noun) ('Asocials') which created a category of perpetual criminality in people.

The Nazi word 'Fremdmoral". "Fremd' translates roughly as 'alien'. The Nazis believed that lesser, foreign people had worse morals. Suella Braverman says police chiefs have told her "that drug supply... is now connected to people who came here on small boats illegally".

Blue62

8,744 posts

151 months

Monday 20th March 2023
quotequote all
cirian75 said:
crankedup5 said:
ZedLeg said:
crankedup5 said:
What other Government policies seemingly align with any Nazi connotations?
What does that have to so with what I said?

You said something stupid and I pointed out why it was stupid.
Answer the question.
This might help




said:
Peter Hitchens challenged people (Gary Lineker in particular) to justify why Gary had said that he thought the language being used around asylum seekers/boat people (etc) was 'not dissimilar' (Gary's words) to that of Germany in the 1930s.

Note: Gary said 'not dissimilar' ie he wasn't claiming that it was identical. And he said 1930s,
which to be clear is not the 1940s.

I've assembled a short checklist: Rhetoric around citizenship and taking citizenship away from people eg Shamima Begum and
Windrush generation. 'Fremdenrecht' is a pre-Nazi idea but adopted by the Nazis to remove German citizenship from German Jews.

Removal of citizenship was called 'Ausbürgerung: By repeatedly declaring people 'illegal' before they've been tried, is 'not dissimilar to "Willensstrafrecht'. This was a punishment for criminal intent, not the crime itself. The law was called 'Täterstrafrecht'.
'Madagaskarplan' - the plan to ship Jews to Madagascar.

The idea of shipping "unwanted' people to other another country 'not dissimilar to the Rwanda scheme.

As an aside, the press have called shipping people to Rwanda as the 'Rwanda Plan' or the 'Rwanda Asylum Plan', unknowingly imitating 'Madagaskarplan', perhaps? Don't know if Ms SB
has expressed it as that.

Perhaps not.
Ms Braverman has used the phrase 'cultural Marxism'. This owes its origins to the Nazis' word 'Kulturbolschewismus' though Ms Braverman may only personally know its roots to US politics.

Ms Braverman and her colleagues are engaged in some kind of culture war(s). This is 'not dissimilar to the 'Kulturkrieg' which started before the Nazis but was very much engaged in by
the Nazis.

'60,000RM kostet dieser Erbkranke die Volksgemeinschaft auf Lebenzeit. Volksgenosse das ist auch dein Geld" = "This hereditarily ill person will cost our national community 60,000 Reichmarks over the course of his lifetime. Citizen, this is your money." This is an example of people seen as 'costing us!
Ms Braverman's persistent labelling of migrants as criminal (and/or the traffickers') even though many migrants are granted asylum is 'not dissimilar' to the Nazis' adoption of 'Asoziale' (noun) ('Asocials') which created a category of perpetual criminality in people.

The Nazi word 'Fremdmoral". "Fremd' translates roughly as 'alien'. The Nazis believed that lesser, foreign people had worse morals. Suella Braverman says police chiefs have told her "that drug supply... is now connected to people who came here on small boats illegally".
It's good that you took the time to post that, hopefully some will take the time to read it with an open mind......then again.