Are Jaguar sales numbers kept secret by JLR?
Discussion
I have looked at Annual Reports etc., but cannot find anything about how each individual current Jaguar model has been selling, during recent years.
A trend might be interesting to see.
DVLA quarterly stats (latest 2022 Q3) show GB and UK only, but Jaguar hopefully export far more cars, than they sell in their home market.
A trend might be interesting to see.
DVLA quarterly stats (latest 2022 Q3) show GB and UK only, but Jaguar hopefully export far more cars, than they sell in their home market.
Thank you William.
That two year comparison probably reveals why TATA are not making the numbers easy to find.
Interesting that the XF is the only model showing a positive percentage in 2022.
I think of the XF as being a very long running model, from 2007, but showing no sign of being replaced.
However, I now understand that it was considerably altered (alloy) in 2015, although to the untrained eye, I cannot notice many external visual differences from the original in 2007. A total 15 year model run, twice as long as the Mercedes-Benz E class.
Jaguar presumably is a financial drag on Land Rover, not that I have studied, but perhaps it always has been.
Hoping to do a BMW, but never managing to achieve it.
I gather the plan is to introduce a range of electric only Jaguars. Whether that can transform the company, who knows.
I think Tata ran out of ideas a long time ago for Jaguar and personally I would rather see her as a niche manufacturer than the purveyor of shopping trolleys she has become .
New Sales Figures are also not what they used to be or mean . How can a car truly been said to have been sold when the manufacturer is obliged to buy it back after an agreed mileage in order to corner the market in nearly new used stock .
It has led to a distortion in both Sales Figures and Used Car values .
New Sales Figures are also not what they used to be or mean . How can a car truly been said to have been sold when the manufacturer is obliged to buy it back after an agreed mileage in order to corner the market in nearly new used stock .
It has led to a distortion in both Sales Figures and Used Car values .
fatboy b said:
A bit sad that Jag once pumped out as many XJs in a year as that lot together.
In those days Jaguars has a prized niche. Now they're just another car, and so in direct competition with many others. And the competition has got much much better. Maybe the hated 'old man' image has gone, but what is the price of victory - mediocrity?Jaguar is still a viable Business and despite what others tell you , quality is still capable of being turned out in the West Midlands . It wants two things , an Owner with the necessary Finance and an Owner with Vision . Above all we need a Government with a credible Industrial Strategy and one that realises the importance of a healthy Manufacturing Sector within this Country . Personally I would like to have seen her in the hands of JCB . At the time of Fords exit JCB apparently were interested in Land Rover but not Jaguar and Ford wouldn't split the Company . I think that was a missed opportunity .
Edited by reddiesel on Sunday 19th March 14:02
From: https://media.jlrms.com/2023-01-09/sheet/790e3994-...
Edited by Dashnine on Sunday 19th March 08:58
reddiesel said:
Jaguar is still a viable Business
Is it, though? Seems like it's being squeezed harder than ever before, especially now the Koreans are making an assault on the "premium" market. Heavy investment in diesel and saloons, both which are in serious decline. Development of SUVs cannibalises sales from Land Rover. Sports cars are one area where they could stand out, but they're small sellers unless they can somehow become another Porsche.Electric is an obvious path, but where are the models? They've gone from leading the pack to behind the pack in 5 years.
I really worry what electrification means for many manufacturers.
If you think back a few years ago, the engine and/or driving experience was such a big deal (amongst other things).
Jaguar and Alfa stand out for me here. When they go electric, how can they differentiate from everyone else? All cars are so good now plus there are probably a lot of people just not bothered about the driving experience.
Bloody shame.
If you think back a few years ago, the engine and/or driving experience was such a big deal (amongst other things).
Jaguar and Alfa stand out for me here. When they go electric, how can they differentiate from everyone else? All cars are so good now plus there are probably a lot of people just not bothered about the driving experience.
Bloody shame.
heisthegaffer said:
I really worry what electrification means for many manufacturers.
If you think back a few years ago, the engine and/or driving experience was such a big deal (amongst other things).
Jaguar and Alfa stand out for me here. When they go electric, how can they differentiate from everyone else? All cars are so good now plus there are probably a lot of people just not bothered about the driving experience.
Bloody shame.
Electrification is child’s play compared to the next evolution to autonomy. When autonomy properly comes in there is no driving experience, there is no 0-60 or in gear acceleration, no handling etc etc. If you think back a few years ago, the engine and/or driving experience was such a big deal (amongst other things).
Jaguar and Alfa stand out for me here. When they go electric, how can they differentiate from everyone else? All cars are so good now plus there are probably a lot of people just not bothered about the driving experience.
Bloody shame.
Car companies will essentially become tech companies that just happen to be into interior design. Sales will be won on interiors and tech. That’s if there are any sales at all as we could end up in a situation where we join “JLR mobility club” and get an app to summon a car when we want it and our choice of app won’t be “I like Jaguar” it will be much like the early days of mobile phones, whoever has the best service where you live.
I predict that by 2060 personal car ownership (even leasing) will be the preserve of the few and if you do still own a car it will be a “classic” BEV and any hint of an ICE car will be like someone owning a steam engine today.
In terms of Jaguar the XF mentioned above is an entirely different car from the 08 car and looks it. You wouldn’t mistake them. You could easily mistake an XE and current XF though.
We have probably all said similar many times over here. The original XF looked like the start of a new dawn and the XJ that followed backed that up. The F-type was great but a little flawed and then it started going downhill. Entering the 3 series class was never going to make 3 series volume and the Pace cars offer little different to Land Rover.
The biggest problem though is / was not the cars it was the buyers. The vast majority of “Jaguar fans” that like the older style cars don’t, never have, and never will buy new cars. This created a massive problem for the company as it only makes money on new cars so it had to switch and alienate all these people in one move.
This impacts in a couple of ways. The X350/8 was the slowest selling of all XJ so made the company little money. Once it gets to 6-8 years old though demand rises as the “traditional Jaguar fans (see above)” can now buy them. This makes no money for the company
These traditional Jaguar fans also take a long time to warm up to change so we can see lots of them moving into the X351 XJ now as after ten years the “it’s not a Jag” thing starts to mellow and they see the positives of them. This has also happened with the XF.
The other issue is new car “buyers”. Many of them much younger than we were buying a new car because they are leasing but they don’t want a car that “looks old fashioned”. Problem is the revamp of the Jaguar range hasn’t gone far enough in that respect. Younger buyers are buying BMW M-sport and MB AMG Line cars like hot cakes. They give the sporty style of the full M and AMG cars with normal running costs. Jaguars response to sell R-sport cars when there isn’t really an R or SVR version of most cars just doesn’t cut it in the same way.
The whole thing feels the me like a company failing to find its niche and one that has therefore fallen into a “me too”. When we look back at history, with the “mark” cars they were competing with Bentley and RR but much cheaper, with the E-type same but with Aston and Ferrari etc. Then along comes the XJ and shows the world how to make what we know of today as a modern luxury car and it took decades for the others to catch up. The problem is that for various reasons we all know about, after that it just all dies a death and is limping along. IMO when Ford bought them they should have been bold enough to go back to that “Bentley and RR competitor at a reasonable price” and / or “Aston and Ferrari competitor at a reasonable price” foundation or rip up the book completely and do something new. By 2008 it was too late.
Craig I’m off to lay down and give thanks that I am close to 60 and all of this will pass me by . The trouble is of course that what you say is perfectly true and indeed likely . It’s a sobering thought that I will literally have to buy a pushbike to enjoy any connection between man and machine . Literally back to the future .
liner33 said:
Circling the drain , I reckon Jag has less than 12 months , shame really
I don’t buy doom mongering like that. People have been saying the same every year since the mid 70s I would say a much more likely scenario will be a revamped brand image released in 2025. All current cars bar the I Pace retired, one new car launched with two others in train and then it will be put up for sale. It’s clear in the strategy they launched that the activity now is a divestiture if you know what to look for.
We won’t see the closing of Jaguar under Tata. How long it lasts after a spin off is anyone’s guess depending on who buys it.
reddiesel said:
Personally I would like to have seen her in the hands of JCB . At the time of Fords exit JCB apparently were interested in Land Rover but not Jaguar and Ford wouldn't split the Company . I think that perhaps , was a missed opportunity .
Agreed I remember that at the time. I think 1989 was a missed opportunity with Ford just trying to recreate the past looks wise and this was also a missed opportunity. I hope that the possible future divestiture when it comes seizes on a different opportunity. Either someone like JCB or someone not even in the vehicles business currently. Thank you everyone for your interesting comments.
I mostly follow Aston Martin (cars, business and history), but did sense that Jaguar might be facing difficulties.
Jaguar were technically the owners of Aston Martin Lagonda, during the Ford era.
Think they still have operational premises next to AML at Gaydon.
Jaguar has possibly been unprofitable for a long time, but I don't know.
Having long been famous for quality large saloons, the sudden fashion move away from saloons to SUVs, cannot have helped Jaguar.
Perhaps surprisingly, Mercedes-Benz say their best selling model is still their E Class saloon. The 6th generation E Class to be announced this year, will be the last IC engine version. Probably Jaguar regard that model as a competitor, but the two firms are David and Goliath really.
It will be interesting to see what TATA decide about Jaguar in the years to come. There is probably 'head scratching' going on.
reddiesel said:
New Sales Figures are also not what they used to be or mean . How can a car truly been said to have been sold when the manufacturer is obliged to buy it back after an agreed mileage in order to corner the market in nearly new used stock .
It has led to a distortion in both Sales Figures and Used Car values .
An interesting point, that I had never heard about.It has led to a distortion in both Sales Figures and Used Car values .
Has that just applied to a particular group, or category of customers?
Perhaps that scheme might suit some new car buyers.
Do you know about the November/December 2019 Aston Martin special offer ?
The new Vantage was not selling well, the company had earlier been listed on the UK Stock Market and CEO Andy Palmer was presumably becoming anxious about the end of year figures.
Dealers had apparently been subject to 'channel stuffing' earlier in 2019, so their premises stocked many unsold Vantages.
How about a £140,000 (with fitted options) Aston Martin Vantage, for an initial payment of £1,000, then 23 payments of £1,000 including initial road tax and servicing.
They flew out of the showrooms and Aston Martin later wrote off about £35 million.
Two years later, many were returned and subsequently appeared on the used market.
I first became aware of the massaging of these Sales figures some years back and a good friend of mine on Jaguar Forum was actually caught out by it .
He had walked into a Jaguar Main Dealer and bought a 6 month old Jaguar XE with around 5000 miles showing which according to the Dealership was previously owned by JLR . Believing the Car to perhaps having been used by some JLR manager he took the plunge and bought the Car . The Logbook which he managed to get a look at before the Dealership sent it off to Swansea to be registered in his name had JLR and an Oxford PO Box Number as its Previous Keeper . Subsequent Investigation proved that this was in fact an Umbrella Address for JLR Leasing and the Car had spent the previous 5 months being operated by Thrifty Hire . I considered this PO Box trick to be be a dirty and underhand device to hide the Cars true history and I said so on Jaguar Forum at the time . My friend had limited grounds if any to subsequently reject the Car especially as it had taken some time for him to uncover the story behind the PO Box Number and the true meaning of Direct from Jaguar .
In short several thousand of these Jaguar XE had been ostensibly sold to Thrifty with a Buy Back Clause within the Agreement . Unfortunately for my Friend Thrifty Hire never appeared on any Log Book or associated Documentation but instead JLR and a PO Box Number . In my estimation he was defrauded . This is what I mean about Sales Figures , since the advent of Leasing where JLR are concerned they are largely smoke and mirrors .
He had walked into a Jaguar Main Dealer and bought a 6 month old Jaguar XE with around 5000 miles showing which according to the Dealership was previously owned by JLR . Believing the Car to perhaps having been used by some JLR manager he took the plunge and bought the Car . The Logbook which he managed to get a look at before the Dealership sent it off to Swansea to be registered in his name had JLR and an Oxford PO Box Number as its Previous Keeper . Subsequent Investigation proved that this was in fact an Umbrella Address for JLR Leasing and the Car had spent the previous 5 months being operated by Thrifty Hire . I considered this PO Box trick to be be a dirty and underhand device to hide the Cars true history and I said so on Jaguar Forum at the time . My friend had limited grounds if any to subsequently reject the Car especially as it had taken some time for him to uncover the story behind the PO Box Number and the true meaning of Direct from Jaguar .
In short several thousand of these Jaguar XE had been ostensibly sold to Thrifty with a Buy Back Clause within the Agreement . Unfortunately for my Friend Thrifty Hire never appeared on any Log Book or associated Documentation but instead JLR and a PO Box Number . In my estimation he was defrauded . This is what I mean about Sales Figures , since the advent of Leasing where JLR are concerned they are largely smoke and mirrors .
reddiesel said:
I first became aware of the massaging of these Sales figures some years back and a good friend of mine on Jaguar Forum was actually caught out by it. ...
Yes, you describe what appears to be a deliberate planned action, that seemingly is bound to mislead.
It reminds me of the time I bought a 1 year old Fiat Punto for my son.
New list about £10,000 at the time and I paid £4,400 at auction, including the remaining 2 year manufacturers warranty.
There were about 20 for sale, so we could even choose colour and also select one without any scratches.
However, they were completely open about the vehicles coming from a rental fleet and that was also shown in the ''log book'.
Both the rental firm and the auction, were quite rightly being completely open and honest with buyers.
For a 1 year old car, the deal seemed a no brainer and that car lasted for more than a decade without faults. The family had by then outgrown the Fiat.
The only thing that I did not know, is they had a dreadful score when crash tested, but fortunately no collisions occurred.
Edited by Jon39 on Sunday 19th March 18:51
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