Public emergency alert - being sent to your phone
Discussion
Megaflow said:
I typed a long response to this, that my phone has just eaten.
I’m well aware it is a national system that can be used locally. But, we all know how much the public sector love a bit of the boy who cried wolf and scope creep, look at naming storms because people stopped paying attention to weather warnings because they are issued just about every day.
I’ll step away from this debate now. I won’t succeed in changing the mind of the govern me harder crowd.
Storm naming.....I’m well aware it is a national system that can be used locally. But, we all know how much the public sector love a bit of the boy who cried wolf and scope creep, look at naming storms because people stopped paying attention to weather warnings because they are issued just about every day.
I’ll step away from this debate now. I won’t succeed in changing the mind of the govern me harder crowd.
The United Kingdom's Met Office, in collaboration with its Irish counterpart Met Éireann and, since 2019, its Dutch counterpart the Royal Netherlands Meteorological Institute (KNMI),[1] decided to introduce a storm naming system following the St Jude's day storm on 27–28 October 2013 which caused 17 deaths in Europe[2][3] and the 2013–14 Atlantic winter storms in Europe to give a single, authoritative naming system to prevent confusion with the media and public using different names for the same storms.[4]
Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_system_nam...
Maybe people stopped paying attention due to the confusion of 1 storm having different names?
I think the first time it's used (I don't mean the upcoming test), will make or break it.
If the first emergency broadcast is "Mable's cat has gone missing. Please report any possible sighting" then I'd predict a large amount of people will then disable it but if it's a real emergency/threat to life then they will take it seriously and not disable it.
Well, that's what I will do. Although I'm struggling to see what kind of emergency in the UK would warrant such a broadcast.
If the first emergency broadcast is "Mable's cat has gone missing. Please report any possible sighting" then I'd predict a large amount of people will then disable it but if it's a real emergency/threat to life then they will take it seriously and not disable it.
Well, that's what I will do. Although I'm struggling to see what kind of emergency in the UK would warrant such a broadcast.
snuffy said:
Although I'm struggling to see what kind of emergency in the UK would warrant such a broadcast.
Read some more of the thread and you'll get some inspiration.Then have a think about things that could potentially happen where an alert might be useful. Just because those things haven't happened before/or have affected you, doesn't mean they'll never happen.
Ari said:
Had this happen once in America. We were in Miami having dinner with friends, suddenly all our phones went off with an alert about a child who had been snatched with a description of the car and the person. Assuming it had only just happened, that's a great way of immediately having all eyes looking for the kidnapper!
That is actually a good use of this if the police can get their act together. In America I've also seen the motorway signs saying "Child Kidnapped" followed by a registration number.I can't think of much else though.
boxst said:
Ari said:
Had this happen once in America. We were in Miami having dinner with friends, suddenly all our phones went off with an alert about a child who had been snatched with a description of the car and the person. Assuming it had only just happened, that's a great way of immediately having all eyes looking for the kidnapper!
That is actually a good use of this if the police can get their act together. In America I've also seen the motorway signs saying "Child Kidnapped" followed by a registration number.I can't think of much else though.
The recent pollution at Poole where they did not want people in the water. "Oil Spill do not enter the water in Pool Harbour"
Missing people at risk. Maybe. Depends if they can send a photo/hyperlink.
Don't forget that these can be quite targeted, not by device, but as I understand it by Cell Site.
It's a great and modern way to get information to people, without requiring them to download apps, register for notifications or chance them coming across the information.
tangerine_sedge said:
Some years ago I used to live near a chemical plant. Every few years they would push a card through the door detailing what to do in an emergency and what the various warning sirens were for. An automated message to every phone would have been quicker and more useful in the event of a chemical release.
Depends, I spent some time on a certain site and one of the alarms basically called for you to look at one of the windsocks dotted around and run upwind (I think it was upwind anyway 
)Mind you, this was the same site which was given a biggish fine for a hexane leak…
surveyor said:
A large fire. "Please keep your doors and windows shut."
The recent pollution at Poole where they did not want people in the water. "Oil Spill do not enter the water in Pool Harbour"
Missing people at risk. Maybe. Depends if they can send a photo/hyperlink.
Don't forget that these can be quite targeted, not by device, but as I understand it by Cell Site.
It's a great and modern way to get information to people, without requiring them to download apps, register for notifications or chance them coming across the information.
Useful in those scenarios, yes in terms of public information, but unlikely to meet the quite stringent 'risk to life' criteria. The recent pollution at Poole where they did not want people in the water. "Oil Spill do not enter the water in Pool Harbour"
Missing people at risk. Maybe. Depends if they can send a photo/hyperlink.
Don't forget that these can be quite targeted, not by device, but as I understand it by Cell Site.
It's a great and modern way to get information to people, without requiring them to download apps, register for notifications or chance them coming across the information.
There may well be an emergency (major incident) that in itself isn't/wasn't a risk to life, but if thousands of people turn up to video it for their social media it may become a risk to life and a burden on the emergency services and an alert could be useful in dissuading people to go there. E.g Grenfell, storm surge, buncefield, Ulley Dam etc
Griffith4ever said:
ChocolateFrog said:
This is really has brought the conspiracy theorists out in my wider social circles.
I'd actually say it has really shown how many people STILL refer to anyone with a distrust of our government as a "conspiracy theorist" (to dismiss their opinions as worthless/insane ramblings), even given the recent "revelations" (was no surprise to me) of how our government acted during the pandemic. The people "you" are referring to as "conspiracy theorists" have largely had their recent views and suspicions validated.You'd do well to take their opinions more seriously.
I do. They've been more "right" than than the "do as you are told"/"what harm does it do?" brigade in recent years.
I turned it off the second I heard about it. Get the F-out of my phone. I can see a storm coming. I can't outrun a nuke. I know when it's windy. We dont' have gunmen on the rampage in the UK. Flooding takes time. I'll survive.
I don't for one second think there is a bigger picture re. this phone intrusion. But as said above, mission creep is becoming almost predicatble.
Edited by Griffith4ever on Tuesday 28th March 13:37
However in this case the people it's triggering are at the loony end of the conspiracy theorist.
Edited by ChocolateFrog on Tuesday 28th March 20:10
Murph7355 said:
Interestingly there are some noting how "meh" this all is who have done nothing but post about how malign the current govt is for the last few years.
Those Venn diagrams
(BTW, I'm meh about it. Not sure it's something govt needed to spend money on. But that applies to much the govt spend money on
My OH reckons the tensions with Russia and China have prompted govt into action on it).
This government isn’t competent enough to be malign.Those Venn diagrams
(BTW, I'm meh about it. Not sure it's something govt needed to spend money on. But that applies to much the govt spend money on
My OH reckons the tensions with Russia and China have prompted govt into action on it). 
ChocolateFrog said:
.
However in this case the people it's triggering are at the loony end of the conspiracy theorist.
Not really as the term triggered is just demeaning those of us that think it’s simply a crock of sHowever in this case the people it's triggering are at the loony end of the conspiracy theorist.
Edited by ChocolateFrog on Tuesday 28th March 20:10
t. I’m not triggered. It’s at the “Don’t drive tired” uselessness end of the spectrum. Absolutely no use to anyone, and the various contrived scenarios given thus far in this thread are plainly bunkum. Raul Moat on the loose? Yeah very handy “Stay indoors, gunman on the rampage” - that would be great but I’m standing at the bus stop?? Oh well fair game I suppose Surveyor somewhere up there ^ said they’ve been developing this for the last 10 years. Cheap at half the price, I’m sure
CoolHands said:
Absolutely no use to anyone, and the various contrived scenarios given thus far in this thread are plainly bunkum.
Surveyor somewhere up there ^ said they’ve been developing this for the last 10 years. Cheap at half the price, I’m sure
Contrived???Surveyor somewhere up there ^ said they’ve been developing this for the last 10 years. Cheap at half the price, I’m sure
The scenarios I've quoted have been real, not contrived. And in emergency planning you have to consider scenarios that may not have happened yet. amongst other reasons, one because that when an unlikely emergency happens and people weren't notified, you can bet there will be people complaining about not being notified!
And yes, the system has been planned for many years. Luckily the infrastructure (phone masts and mobile networks) already exists so consider the savings made by not installing an entirely bespoke, independent system!
Biggy Stardust said:
xx99xx said:
. Luckily the infrastructure (phone masts and mobile networks) already exists so consider the savings made by not installing an entirely bespoke, independent system!
We're saving a fortune? Excellent. I thought we were wasting one.I too would like to see the costs.
Presumably there's a committee that decides what criteria constitute an 'emergency', thus determining which agencies will need to be involved in the scheme.
I can think of the following off the top of my head:
Police, ambulance, fire, environment agency, Met Office, RAF, RN, army, Border Force, RNLI, NHS, local councils. Then things get trickier: how would local stuff like oil refineries report an incident? So some form of command centre will need to be set up which can access local phone cells at the push of a button....
I have zero confidence that this can be set up at a reasonable cost & actually be of any benefit in this country. Having watched our leadership piss so much £££ away in recent times, what's the betting it'll cost millions & the original budget will eventually go up many times....
Presumably there's a committee that decides what criteria constitute an 'emergency', thus determining which agencies will need to be involved in the scheme.
I can think of the following off the top of my head:
Police, ambulance, fire, environment agency, Met Office, RAF, RN, army, Border Force, RNLI, NHS, local councils. Then things get trickier: how would local stuff like oil refineries report an incident? So some form of command centre will need to be set up which can access local phone cells at the push of a button....
I have zero confidence that this can be set up at a reasonable cost & actually be of any benefit in this country. Having watched our leadership piss so much £££ away in recent times, what's the betting it'll cost millions & the original budget will eventually go up many times....
Biker 1 said:
I too would like to see the costs.
Presumably there's a committee that decides what criteria constitute an 'emergency', thus determining which agencies will need to be involved in the scheme.
I can think of the following off the top of my head:
Police, ambulance, fire, environment agency, Met Office, RAF, RN, army, Border Force, RNLI, NHS, local councils. Then things get trickier: how would local stuff like oil refineries report an incident? So some form of command centre will need to be set up which can access local phone cells at the push of a button....
I have zero confidence that this can be set up at a reasonable cost & actually be of any benefit in this country. Having watched our leadership piss so much £££ away in recent times, what's the betting it'll cost millions & the original budget will eventually go up many times....
Can't help you on the costs.Presumably there's a committee that decides what criteria constitute an 'emergency', thus determining which agencies will need to be involved in the scheme.
I can think of the following off the top of my head:
Police, ambulance, fire, environment agency, Met Office, RAF, RN, army, Border Force, RNLI, NHS, local councils. Then things get trickier: how would local stuff like oil refineries report an incident? So some form of command centre will need to be set up which can access local phone cells at the push of a button....
I have zero confidence that this can be set up at a reasonable cost & actually be of any benefit in this country. Having watched our leadership piss so much £££ away in recent times, what's the betting it'll cost millions & the original budget will eventually go up many times....
Only emergency services, government departments and authorities who deal with emergencies can send an alert. If a responder doesn't have authority to issue an alert they can discuss the issuing of an alert via their Local Resilience Forum if a Strategic Coordination Group is stood up to respond to the incident. Similar with the oil refinery scenario, they would involve the emergency services who would be able to issue an alert if there was a risk to life involved.
The system is owned by the Civil Contingencies Secretariat, part of the Cabinet Office. They have set the criteria for what alerts are appropriate for. To start with, all alerts need to get signed off by CCS and at some point in the future (when organisations have hopefully shown they know what they're doing) some authorities may be given direct access with no CCS involvement required.
xx99xx said:
Can't help you on the costs.
Yet you said we were saving a considerable amount.................xx99xx said:
Only emergency services, government departments and authorities who deal with emergencies can send an alert. If a responder doesn't have authority to issue an alert they can discuss the issuing of an alert via their Local Resilience Forum if a Strategic Coordination Group is stood up to respond to the incident. Similar with the oil refinery scenario, they would involve the emergency services who would be able to issue an alert if there was a risk to life involved.
The system is owned by the Civil Contingencies Secretariat, part of the Cabinet Office. They have set the criteria for what alerts are appropriate for. To start with, all alerts need to get signed off by CCS and at some point in the future (when organisations have hopefully shown they know what they're doing) some authorities may be given direct access with no CCS involvement required.
Sounds like a lot of bureaucracy & keeping expensive people in non-jobs for little potential benefit.The system is owned by the Civil Contingencies Secretariat, part of the Cabinet Office. They have set the criteria for what alerts are appropriate for. To start with, all alerts need to get signed off by CCS and at some point in the future (when organisations have hopefully shown they know what they're doing) some authorities may be given direct access with no CCS involvement required.
Biggy Stardust said:
Sounds like a lot of bureaucracy & keeping expensive people in non-jobs for little potential benefit.
So people are complaining that the system will get abused and loads of unnecessary messages will be sent out, but procedures for ensuring unnecessary messages aren't sent out is excessive bureaucracy for little benefit? I get that you might think the warning system isn't needed, but if there is one it needs controls to ensure it's used correctly.
The organisations xx99xx describes already exists and are used regularly, adding a couple of procedures for who gets to press the button is pretty simple.
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