Government Green Day - Gas Prices to increase

Government Green Day - Gas Prices to increase

Author
Discussion

budgie smuggler

5,359 posts

158 months

Friday 31st March 2023
quotequote all
Oliver Hardy said:
However, the government did commit to rebalancing the "current distortions in electricity and gas prices" to ensure electricity is cheaper.

I don't think this has been posted, but the main news is that the government intends to push up gas prices!
Doesn't necessarily mean gas going up, could also mean they intend to address the 'last generating unit' mechanism that means gas prices effectively also set electricity prices.

Grumps.

5,966 posts

35 months

Friday 31st March 2023
quotequote all
Oooo another 'climate' thread.

Oliver Hardy

Original Poster:

2,384 posts

73 months

Friday 31st March 2023
quotequote all
Randy Winkman said:
Ivan stewart said:
Randy Winkman said:
Industry in the UK suffers in comparison to other countries because electricity is so expensive but gas is cheap. That helps domestic users but not business. Past energy policy has mostly revolved around keeping householders happy.
So the answer is to make gas as or more expensive than electricity??!
The idea is that the cost balance will change for industry which will make the UK more competitive and help the country. Not saying that will happen but that's the idea.
But isn't gas cheaper because it is cheaper to produce and I guess transport as you don't loose gas. Isn't gas cheaper in all countries?

I don't really understand why huge consumers of electricity don't use gas and have gas generators but guess they are very expensive too.

budgie smuggler said:
Doesn't necessarily mean gas going up, could also mean they intend to address the 'last generating unit' mechanism that means gas prices effectively also set electricity prices.
Very true but is it likely, it would mean the government subsidising electricity, wouldn't it?



Grumps.

5,966 posts

35 months

Friday 31st March 2023
quotequote all
paulrockliffe said:
Randy Winkman said:
The idea is that the cost balance will change for industry which will make the UK more competitive and help the country. Not saying that will happen but that's the idea.
Yes, but the cost balance for industry is to put tariffs on imports so that domestic industry can compete with countries that haven't deliberately destroyed their energy supply. This is great if you are the owner of a manufacturing business in the UK, but it's terrible for anyone that buys stuff that's been manufactured, because now it will cost more.

And obviously that cost burden falls on all of us, pretty much everything we do will result in some extra tax that we then have to pay for.

Putting up the price of imports won't have any effect on our exports, they'll remain in competition with companies in non-cratered-energy countries globally.

This policy announcement was simple a list of all the new reasons why we'll all be poorer, to go on top of all the other ones that have emerged in the last couple of years. Yet it's only a few weeks since Rishi was telling us that reducing the cost of living was his number one priority.

Luckily, he's got 12 months before he's fked off, but unluckily we've got Ed Milliband to look forward to.

fking hell.
What would your solution be?

Hants PHer

5,680 posts

110 months

Friday 31st March 2023
quotequote all
Last night's Question Time from Bristol was interesting, in that the audience mostly seemed to demand Net Zero now, right now, dammit - we can't wait until 2050 because we'll all be dead, we must Save The Planet now!

There was a call to end all new oil and gas exploration immediately, and of course Lady Nugee (Emily Thornberry) weighed in with the demand that every home should be properly insulated. And of course heat pumps and electric cars were suggested as the answer to, well, everything.

There's 27 million homes in the UK connected to the gas mains. And there's around 30 million ICE cars too. I don't pretend to have all the data, but it looks like a gargantuan task to upgrade domestic insulation + replace gas heating with heat pumps + replace combustion engined cars.

And even if it's possible in the next, say, ten years, who will pay for it? Made up numbers, but 27 million homes each needing a heat pump at £10,000 a pop is £270 billion. 30 million cars with a scrappage scheme of, say, £5,000 each is another £150 billion. God knows how much a mass insulation programme will cost, and so on.

And where will the electricity come form to power all of this? Currently around 40% of our electricity comes from renewables, and that's before everyone has a heat pump and an electric car. What happens when the wind doesn't blow and the sun isn't shining?

TLDR: we'll have to rely on gas and oil for many years to come, however angry the good people of Bristol get about it.

pquinn

7,167 posts

45 months

Friday 31st March 2023
quotequote all
Randy Winkman said:
Ivan stewart said:
Randy Winkman said:
Industry in the UK suffers in comparison to other countries because electricity is so expensive but gas is cheap. That helps domestic users but not business. Past energy policy has mostly revolved around keeping householders happy.
So the answer is to make gas as or more expensive than electricity??!
The idea is that the cost balance will change for industry which will make the UK more competitive and help the country. Not saying that will happen but that's the idea.
The secret to making electricity cheaper does not lie in making gas more expensive, nor indeed does it lie in pushing gas consumption over onto electricity consumption when supply is already constrained and if anything *dispatchable* electricity generation is going to further decline with the new policy.

There's an utter disconnect between the policies being pushed & the basics of supply and demand, or indeed physical realities of availability, workable solutions and even what's already affecting industrial consumers of gas at the current (not at all cheap) prices.


Wooly thinking & religious fervor are not a basis for policy.

turbobloke

103,742 posts

259 months

Friday 31st March 2023
quotequote all
pquinn said:
Randy Winkman said:
Ivan stewart said:
Randy Winkman said:
Industry in the UK suffers in comparison to other countries because electricity is so expensive but gas is cheap. That helps domestic users but not business. Past energy policy has mostly revolved around keeping householders happy.
So the answer is to make gas as or more expensive than electricity??!
The idea is that the cost balance will change for industry which will make the UK more competitive and help the country. Not saying that will happen but that's the idea.
The secret to making electricity cheaper does not lie in making gas more expensive, nor indeed does it lie in pushing gas consumption over onto electricity consumption when supply is already constrained and if anything *dispatchable* electricity generation is going to further decline with the new policy.

There's an utter disconnect between the policies being pushed & the basics of supply and demand, or indeed physical realities of availability, workable solutions and even what's already affecting industrial consumers of gas at the current (not at all cheap) prices.


Wooly thinking & religious fervor are not a basis for policy.
Totally, unfortunately woolly thinking and religious zeal levels of faith are indeed the basis for policy atm. Looking around, we can see how well it's working for ourselves.

monkfish1

10,874 posts

223 months

Friday 31st March 2023
quotequote all
J4CKO said:
I dont know where they think folk will magic the money from for all this ?

We spent seven grand upgrading our heating system to a new boiler and various bits, to my mind thats done for twenty years or so, not going to spend ten or fifteen grand ripping it out to replace with something that isnt as good as the government say so.

We have two cars, both are fine, could go and buy an EV but dont particularly want one or to have to lay out 30/40 grand for one I would actually consider, even then I do minimal mileage so seems pointless for some minimal environmental angle, its a Fiesta that does 100 miles a week if that.

And we have no mortgage, a decent income, no debt, some savings, no kids at home and spare cash each month, so how do they expect people who are on the back foot financially to go that way ? I cant really afford to capitulate so damn sure a couple both on min wage with two kids wont be able to.

Alternatives need to be as good or better and compete on price, none of it is quite there yet.
I know.

When you cant afford to comply with the law that they pass regarding your heating system, they will "give" you the money in return for a stake in your house.

If you are a tennant and rent, then it will be the landlord problem. If they cant afford it, refer to above.

And, slowly but surely, housing stock is removed from private ownership. Clever eh?

Meanwhile, its pretty certain Starmer will win the next election. He is still commited to turning off gas to domestic propertiues in 2030. So, much as you say you dont want to rip it all out again, if you dont, you will be rather cold. There roughly 30 million houses on gas. This should be entertaining.

See how this works? They got you either way.

monkfish1

10,874 posts

223 months

Friday 31st March 2023
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
Have we reached peak stupid yet? We seem to be really, really close with our Govts attempting to ruin us. But are we there yet?!!?
No, not yet. Think we are a fair way off still.

monkfish1

10,874 posts

223 months

Friday 31st March 2023
quotequote all
budgie smuggler said:
Oliver Hardy said:
However, the government did commit to rebalancing the "current distortions in electricity and gas prices" to ensure electricity is cheaper.

I don't think this has been posted, but the main news is that the government intends to push up gas prices!
Doesn't necessarily mean gas going up, could also mean they intend to address the 'last generating unit' mechanism that means gas prices effectively also set electricity prices.
That wont happen. That would reduce prices. They dont want that.

turbobloke

103,742 posts

259 months

Friday 31st March 2023
quotequote all
monkfish1 said:
Jasandjules said:
Have we reached peak stupid yet? We seem to be really, really close with our Govts attempting to ruin us. But are we there yet?!!?
No, not yet. Think we are a fair way off still.
A hell of a way off, it's taos. They're barely halfway sleepwalking down the road to hell.

monkfish1

10,874 posts

223 months

Friday 31st March 2023
quotequote all
Hants PHer said:
And even if it's possible in the next, say, ten years, who will pay for it? Made up numbers, but 27 million homes each needing a heat pump at £10,000 a pop is £270 billion. 30 million cars with a scrappage scheme of, say, £5,000 each is another £150 billion. God knows how much a mass insulation programme will cost, and so on.
As per my earlier post, it will be funded by taking a stake in your house. Cant afford the 20/30/40k to do all that. Look, heres the money, we just take that value from your house.

The 2 biggest stores of weath are housing stock and pensions. Inevitably, thats where the money will come from. There really isnt anywhere else it can come from as far as i can see. Happy for someone else to point me to another source though.

J210

4,503 posts

182 months

Friday 31st March 2023
quotequote all
Rather than stupid policies design to hurt. Sort out the issues first like actually creating electricity that can be sold cheap.

Rather than penalise for use, incentivise to switch its not rocket science

oyster

12,577 posts

247 months

Friday 31st March 2023
quotequote all
Hants PHer said:
Last night's Question Time from Bristol was interesting, in that the audience mostly seemed to demand Net Zero now, right now, dammit - we can't wait until 2050 because we'll all be dead, we must Save The Planet now!

There was a call to end all new oil and gas exploration immediately, and of course Lady Nugee (Emily Thornberry) weighed in with the demand that every home should be properly insulated. And of course heat pumps and electric cars were suggested as the answer to, well, everything.

There's 27 million homes in the UK connected to the gas mains. And there's around 30 million ICE cars too. I don't pretend to have all the data, but it looks like a gargantuan task to upgrade domestic insulation + replace gas heating with heat pumps + replace combustion engined cars.

And even if it's possible in the next, say, ten years, who will pay for it? Made up numbers, but 27 million homes each needing a heat pump at £10,000 a pop is £270 billion. 30 million cars with a scrappage scheme of, say, £5,000 each is another £150 billion. God knows how much a mass insulation programme will cost, and so on.

And where will the electricity come form to power all of this? Currently around 40% of our electricity comes from renewables, and that's before everyone has a heat pump and an electric car. What happens when the wind doesn't blow and the sun isn't shining?

TLDR: we'll have to rely on gas and oil for many years to come, however angry the good people of Bristol get about it.
Right now we've got the most effective driver for mass insulation that exists - flipping expensive energy costs.
The government should have left them to rise to £4k a year - in the long term it would drive change.

pquinn

7,167 posts

45 months

Friday 31st March 2023
quotequote all
monkfish1 said:
Meanwhile, its pretty certain Starmer will win the next election. He is still commited to turning off gas to domestic propertiues in 2030.
If politicians want to pursue these policies they should be forced to be early adopters - how does 'by January 2024' sound? - *and* they should have to fork out for it from their own pockets and not be able to expense any installation or future running costs.

They might become slightly more sceptical.

glazbagun

14,259 posts

196 months

Friday 31st March 2023
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
Have we reached peak stupid yet? We seem to be really, really close with our Govts attempting to ruin us. But are we there yet?!!?
I think we passed peak stupid with Truss.

We had a period of grown up government as Brown and then DC wrestled with the GFC but since Camerons referendums the SNP & Conservatives have been too busy avoiding governance to fix anything.

I'd like to say the next decade will be different but I suspect whoever is next will keep kicking all of the cans down the road.

monkfish1

10,874 posts

223 months

Friday 31st March 2023
quotequote all
oyster said:
Right now we've got the most effective driver for mass insulation that exists - flipping expensive energy costs.
The government should have left them to rise to £4k a year - in the long term it would drive change.
Clearly said from a position of comfortable financial security.

Meanwhile, out in the real world, where energy costs are munching up the household budget, how is said insulation going to be funded by the homeowner.

Doesnt matter id spending £20k now saves you twice that over 30 years, If you dont have the £20k, you dont have it.

And thats before we get on to the hideously complicated issues surrounding insulatin existing housing stock, the problems with which are already clearly apparant.

blade runner

1,029 posts

211 months

Friday 31st March 2023
quotequote all
Where is all the electricity to run heating and hot water for all these home supposed to come from in less than 7 years time? None of the new nuclear is going to be on-line until well after this date and we know that renewables don't work when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow. What about the upgrade to the national grid infrastructure that will be needed when all domestic heat and hot water requirements will be electric?

A lot of UK housing stock is not easy to insulate properly and even if you could fit ASHP to all current gas-fired houses, just who is going to fit all these systems? A very conservative estimate of 1 week per house to rip out all the gas components and install ASHP with new piping, new rads, immersion heater etc. With 27million homes currently on mains gas, that's over 77,000 homes per week that would need to be converted to get the whole job done by 2030. This is also assuming that there are 77,000 plumbing companies even available who are prepared to stop all their other work for the next 7 years to undertake the conversions.

Surely any idiot can see that this simply isn't going to happen?

Edited by blade runner on Friday 31st March 16:11

garagewidow

1,502 posts

169 months

Friday 31st March 2023
quotequote all
Sure it won't happen.

I can just imagine all those new plumbers "fast tracked" through plumber school with a new shiny certificate just champing to come round and do some shoddy pipe work and ruin all your decorating then disappearing into the night.

juice

8,509 posts

281 months

Friday 31st March 2023
quotequote all
Hants PHer said:
Last night's Question Time from Bristol was interesting, in that the audience mostly seemed to demand Net Zero now, right now, dammit - we can't wait until 2050 because we'll all be dead, we must Save The Planet now!

TLDR: we'll have to rely on gas and oil for many years to come, however angry the good people of Bristol get about it.
Don't read too much into the opinions from Bristol, they are all bat-st crazy round here.