French passenger jet gone missing from radar screens........

French passenger jet gone missing from radar screens........

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Discussion

lord-of-creation

2,994 posts

162 months

Tuesday 2nd June 2009
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All sounds a bit like 'LOST' to me

youngsyr

12,313 posts

161 months

Tuesday 2nd June 2009
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Ayahuasca said:
There has been a case of someone parachuting from an airliner - a hijacker in the US years ago. Parachuted with a bag of money out of the cabin of a DC-9 (I think), not been seen since.
Eric Mc said:
D B Cooper who hijacked a Northwest Orient Boeing 727 in 1971 and parachuted with the ransome money out the rear airstars. He was never seen again.
I'm sure I'm preaching to the converted, but there's a world of difference between preparing in advance and voluntarily jumping from an airliner which is presumably flying straight and level and unexpectedly being sucked out/carrying out a forced evacuation of one in the event of a catastrophic cabin breach.

I'd imagine the difference would be similar to a HALO jump by Navy Seals vs ejection from a F-15 after being struck by enemy fire. The difference in equipment needed to carry out a safe evacuation in either case is considerable.

freedee

81 posts

208 months

Tuesday 2nd June 2009
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I have jumped out of a 727 in the States (I am not D B Cooper) not a massive drama but it was flying about as slow as these things can.

Steameh

3,155 posts

179 months

Tuesday 2nd June 2009
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Get Karter said:
Ayahuasca said:
dan1981 said:
This image from the bbc showing where the "wreckage" has been found



The weather conditions are accurate from when the plance went missing. I can't see this one being down to anythign other than appalling weather conditions either causing the plane to fail, or interacctiong with for example poor maintenance to cause the failure.

Look at that string of thunder storms for starters. Imagine it was not a pleasant flight to be on, before everythign went tits up.

BBC also saying that the pieces of wreckage are already spread over at least 60km. -Sounds about right for a breakup from 35k feet doesn't it?
If the thunderstorms at the ITCZ are so severe, given that they are not exactly uncommon and that hundreds of airliners fly that route each year why don't more of them fall out of the sky? It can't have been just the weather.
I totally agree. That's why I am so interested in finding out what the investigation comes up with. The fact that there has not been a claim of responsibility by any terrorist organisation DOES suggest it is a true accident.....but I would have expected even a fake claim to have been made as a matter of course by some organisation.....
I should imagine as with most accidents there will be a large number of problems that strung together all at once. As I said earlier, I would imagine the bad weather only compounded the problems rather than was the direct cause.

As for that cause, until the investigation is finished, who knows, but I'd still postulate something akin to an ADIRU malfunction.

Semi hemi

1,790 posts

167 months

Tuesday 2nd June 2009
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youngsyr said:
Ayahuasca said:
There has been a case of someone parachuting from an airliner - a hijacker in the US years ago. Parachuted with a bag of money out of the cabin of a DC-9 (I think), not been seen since.
Eric Mc said:
D B Cooper who hijacked a Northwest Orient Boeing 727 in 1971 and parachuted with the ransome money out the rear airstars. He was never seen again.
I'm sure I'm preaching to the converted, but there's a world of difference between preparing in advance and voluntarily jumping from an airliner which is presumably flying straight and level and unexpectedly being sucked out/carrying out a forced evacuation of one in the event of a catastrophic cabin breach.

I'd imagine the difference would be similar to a HALO jump by Navy Seals vs ejection from a F-15 after being struck by enemy fire. The difference in equipment needed to carry out a safe evacuation in either case is considerable.
I have been in an aircraft, a Shorts Skyvan. with 19 other experienced jumpers when too many of us got to close to the tailgate on the run in to exit, upseting the CoG(and the pilots day) causing it to stall.
Now we were all kitted up ready to go but still found it extremely difficult to get out of what is basically a 3 sided box. as it was the pilot recovered control but only those that were right out at the back by the massive exit managed to clear the aircraft even then some had to physically drag them selves over the edge..
As for hand carring our rigs on to commercial flights, we all used to. Main reasons for this was Its an expensive bit of kit and your life depends on it.. so are you going to leave it to the tender mercies of the handlers at Thiefrow.
Plus the look on other passengers face when you sit next to them and say, " did you not get one of these" Pricelesslaugh

EdJ

1,165 posts

164 months

Tuesday 2nd June 2009
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Ayahuasca said:
There has been a case of someone parachuting from an airliner - a hijacker in the US years ago. Parachuted with a bag of money out of the cabin of a DC-9 (I think), not been seen since.


I'm sure I saw something similar in the TV show "24" not that long ago.

Semi hemi

1,790 posts

167 months

Tuesday 2nd June 2009
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Eric Mc said:
D B Cooper who hijacked a Northwest Orient Boeing 727 in 1971 and parachuted with the ransome money out the rear airstars. He was never seen again.
It was an odd case, even allowing that it was over 30 odd years ago he only asked for 200,000 dollars and 3 "sport parachute rigs, they never tampered with the parachutes as they thought he was going to take the stewardess with him, Many years later some of the money was found in a river bank in Oregon.

Ayahuasca

26,815 posts

248 months

Tuesday 2nd June 2009
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Semi hemi said:
Eric Mc said:
D B Cooper who hijacked a Northwest Orient Boeing 727 in 1971 and parachuted with the ransome money out the rear airstars. He was never seen again.
It was an odd case, even allowing that it was over 30 odd years ago he only asked for 200,000 dollars and 3 "sport parachute rigs, they never tampered with the parachutes as they thought he was going to take the stewardess with him, Many years later some of the money was found in a river bank in Oregon.
The only hijack that has never been solved and the FBI are still actively looking for him.

RDE

4,845 posts

183 months

Tuesday 2nd June 2009
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Podie said:
Several studies have been conducted in the past on passenger behaviour in simulated crash situations. Bearing in mind these people know they are safe at the time, it's hard to gauge a true reaction.

However, when given a substantial financial incentive to get off the plane first the results were staggering. People would push and shove, people would get trapped in their seats as people went over the top and broke seats, others were kicked and punched - hell one was even bitten.

Human behaviour is, at times, mind boggling...
I read an old book recently that included mention of the 737 fire at Manchester Airport in 1985. The description of the difficulty people had in getting out was pretty ghastly. Rescuers reportedly had to pull people out of a bottle neck of passengers that formed at a bulkhead.

Eric Mc

115,915 posts

234 months

Tuesday 2nd June 2009
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The hi-density seating used by Britiah Airtours (the charter subsidiary of British Airways) caused much of the problem.

RDE

4,845 posts

183 months

Tuesday 2nd June 2009
quotequote all
So I understand.

On another topic, I remember a programme saying that to support the weight of a 747 would require '30 parachutes, each the size of a football pitch'. Not exactly feasible, and as others have mentioned, only of use if the aircraft is in one piece.

TankRizzo

6,033 posts

162 months

Tuesday 2nd June 2009
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Eric Mc said:
The hi-density seating used by British Airtours (the charter subsidiary of British Airways) caused much of the problem.
Them buggers gave me salmonella when I was nine.

Eric Mc

115,915 posts

234 months

Tuesday 2nd June 2009
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Did they charge extra?

Ryanair would.

el stovey

39,929 posts

232 months

Tuesday 2nd June 2009
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dan1981 said:
This image from the bbc showing where the "wreckage" has been found



The weather conditions are accurate from when the plance went missing. I can't see this one being down to anythign other than appalling weather conditions either causing the plane to fail, or interacctiong with for example poor maintenance to cause the failure.

Look at that string of thunder storms for starters. Imagine it was not a pleasant flight to be on, before everythign went tits up.
That weather shown on your BBC image is entirely normal for that part of the world at this time of year. It certainly doesn't show enough to indicate severe or extreme weather.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intertropical_Converg...

http://www.geography.hunter.cuny.edu/~tbw/wc.notes...



Edited by el stovey on Tuesday 2nd June 18:57

mattdaniels

7,351 posts

251 months

Tuesday 2nd June 2009
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Eric Mc said:
The hi-density seating used by Britiah Airtours (the charter subsidiary of British Airways) caused much of the problem.
Actually there are plenty of studies out there that conclude that in the mayhem of an evacuation, a high density cabin leads to a faster evacuation due to everyone being regimented and "merged" into a line towards each exit as opposed to a low density layout where everyone scrambles towards the exit. Humans being sheep and all that.

TeamD

4,887 posts

201 months

Tuesday 2nd June 2009
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Wiki said:
Aviation experts are saying that the Intertropical Convergence Zone could have played a role in the disappearance of Air France flight 447, which left Rio de Janeiro's Galeão International Airport on Sunday, May 31, 2009 at 7 p.m. (4:00 p.m. EDT) and had been expected to land at Paris's Roissy Charles de Gaulle Airport on Monday June 1, 2009 at 11:15 a.m.[2]
Crikey these Wiki bods are rapid!

motco

14,125 posts

215 months

Tuesday 2nd June 2009
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The commentators are studiously avoiding suggesting that the fly-by-wire computer might have dived for cover when the lightning struck. It would potentially ground all modern airliners - worse in a way than a terrorist bomb.

Invisible man

39,730 posts

253 months

Tuesday 2nd June 2009
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motco said:
The commentators are studiously avoiding suggesting that the fly-by-wire computer might have dived for cover when the lightning struck. It would potentially ground all modern airliners - worse in a way than a terrorist bomb.
Who's doing the investigation? I still have recollections of the A320 Paris Air Show crash in 88

CatherineJ

9,586 posts

212 months

Tuesday 2nd June 2009
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I've read that the French are not refusing to rule out a terrorist bomb. I guess they have to say that until they can examine the wreckage.

Edited by CatherineJ on Tuesday 2nd June 20:40

Semi hemi

1,790 posts

167 months

Tuesday 2nd June 2009
quotequote all
Invisible man said:
motco said:
The commentators are studiously avoiding suggesting that the fly-by-wire computer might have dived for cover when the lightning struck. It would potentially ground all modern airliners - worse in a way than a terrorist bomb.
Who's doing the investigation? I still have recollections of the A320 Paris Air Show crash in 88
Didnt the pilot overide the system to show that they could still have "manual" control...
Prompting a comment in Flight magazine's "Straight & Level column.
"That the flight crew of the future would consist of One Pilot & One Dog.
The Pilot would be there to feed the dog.
The dog would be there to bite the pilot if he touched anything.