What was the original specification of the 390SE engine

[pjtvr]

. Does anyone know the original specification of the NCK engine as in the 390SE. I am going to rebuild mine, so need to know what cam should be in it, or available equivalent, and any other non standard Rover parts.

[grahamw48]

Wedg1e!

[ed_crouch]

I spoke with Dom Trickett about this (I understand he used to build them in his early days with North Coventry Kawasaki before it became TVRPower and he became the gaffer?).

He said:

SD1 vitesse base engine
Standard crank
Bored out
Omega flat top pistons
Standard rods
Crane cam (mild road, equivalent to like a 214/224)
Heavy duty timing gear
ported heads
Standard valves?
Double valve springs
Standard lifters

There may be other mods, but these are those I know of.

[B-Reight]

I think it may depend upon the year of your 390, mine is an '88 build and has a 3.9 bottom end (intermediate block with cross bolting bosses casting but not actually cross bolted) rather than the bored 3.5 block. I would imagine therefore i've got a stock bottom end as the omega pistons were 93.5mm dia rather than the stock 94mm bore.

My heads are ported but the valve train looks stock except for double valve springs and kent h214 cam.

Oh, and an adjustable fuel pressure regulator to allow the the stock l-jet injection off the 3.5 to fuel the increased size/power (which it barely does, which is why im after some jag injectors at the mo)

Edited by B-Reight on Wednesday 30th December 21:06

[Wedg1e]

ed_crouch said:

SD1 vitesse base engine
Standard crank
Bored out
Omega flat top pistons
Standard rods
Crane cam (mild road, equivalent to like a 214/224)
Heavy duty timing gear
ported heads
Standard valves?
Double valve springs
Standard lifters

There may be other mods, but these are those I know of.

Sounds just like mine. Also has adjustable fuel pressure regulator, ported inlet manifold and shortened ('bulletted') valve guides to allow room for the valves to lift higher; also accommodated by the pockets in the piston crowns. Valve sizes are standard as stated.

Previous owner had replaced the cam with an RPI Eng. RP1, and replaced the duplex timing gear as well (in fact ISTR it has a vernier gear on the camshaft).

I think it was Joolz that told me some of the early 390s had all sorts of better bits like forged rods, Wills rings etc. and maybe some of this is what went into the Andy Rouse specials giving rise to the semi-mythical 275bhp often quoted.

[C O Jones]

My engine (I belive that it was the first JE engine after the Andy Rouse ones, 17th 390 SE) has forged Cosworth pistons.

[Wedg1e]

C O Jones said:

My engine (I belive that it was the first JE engine after the Andy Rouse ones, 17th 390 SE) has forged Cosworth pistons.

I'm sure when I wanted new pistons for the 390 rebuild, JE Engineering told me that Cosworth themselves used Omega pistons...
Certainly the ones I took out of my engine (and subsequently sold on Ebay ) were marked as Omegas. From memory JE wanted £600 for a set of +20 thou (ie 94mm) flat-topped pistons, plus machining to put the valve pockets in.

[B-Reight]

I wonder if anyone actually has ever got one of these 275bhp engines,and seen such figures on the dyno. Most of the dyno sheets i've seen (and the dyno operators i have chatted to) have only been about 220-230bhp.

I'm not even sure the rv8 is capable of 70bhp litre without using a very wild (read:undrivable on the road) cam

[B-Reight]

Wedg1e,is your ported inlet manifold ported at both ends with larger trumpets or is it just ported at the head side?

[Wedg1e]

B-Reight said:

I wonder if anyone actually has ever got one of these 275bhp engines,and seen such figures on the dyno. Most of the dyno sheets i've seen (and the dyno operators i have chatted to) have only been about 220-230bhp.

I'm not even sure the rv8 is capable of 70bhp litre without using a very wild (read:undrivable on the road) cam

That was the point. The Rouse motor was only any use on the track and used as much oil as it did petrol. By the time it was civilised for road use a fair chunk of the power had gone and, as you say, 230bhp is a FIT 390.
With typical TVR winging-it they forgot to mention to the buying public that what they thought they were buying, wasn't. Most of the magazine road tests spotted it straight away but (perhaps) were sweet-talked into making excuses for the poor performance on the day.
I think (but not certain why I think this, memory's a bit Hobgoblin'ed at the mo ) that Rouse developed the engine on carbs rather than injection. Also think the factory racer ran (runs?) carbs, so maybe there's a good reason for that...

[combine]

Wedg1e said:

B-Reight said:

I wonder if anyone actually has ever got one of these 275bhp engines,and seen such figures on the dyno. Most of the dyno sheets i've seen (and the dyno operators i have chatted to) have only been about 220-230bhp.

I'm not even sure the rv8 is capable of 70bhp litre without using a very wild (read:undrivable on the road) cam

That was the point. The Rouse motor was only any use on the track and used as much oil as it did petrol. By the time it was civilised for road use a fair chunk of the power had gone and, as you say, 230bhp is a FIT 390.
With typical TVR winging-it they forgot to mention to the buying public that what they thought they were buying, wasn't. Most of the magazine road tests spotted it straight away but (perhaps) were sweet-talked into making excuses for the poor performance on the day.
I think (but not certain why I think this, memory's a bit Hobgoblin'ed at the mo ) that Rouse developed the engine on carbs rather than injection. Also think the factory racer ran (runs?) carbs, so maybe there's a good reason for that...

Does anyone know if the factory racer is still going and who has it ?

[shpub]

Wedg1e said:

B-Reight said:

I wonder if anyone actually has ever got one of these 275bhp engines,and seen such figures on the dyno. Most of the dyno sheets i've seen (and the dyno operators i have chatted to) have only been about 220-230bhp.

I'm not even sure the rv8 is capable of 70bhp litre without using a very wild (read:undrivable on the road) cam

That was the point. The Rouse motor was only any use on the track and used as much oil as it did petrol. By the time it was civilised for road use a fair chunk of the power had gone and, as you say, 230bhp is a FIT 390.
With typical TVR winging-it they forgot to mention to the buying public that what they thought they were buying, wasn't. Most of the magazine road tests spotted it straight away but (perhaps) were sweet-talked into making excuses for the poor performance on the day.
I think (but not certain why I think this, memory's a bit Hobgoblin'ed at the mo ) that Rouse developed the engine on carbs rather than injection. Also think the factory racer ran (runs?) carbs, so maybe there's a good reason for that...

Actually Andy Rouse didn't build the AR engines... they were subcontracted out to John Eales. The actual spec varied tremendously as they were built on a hand to mouth basis. My 1987 NCK 390SE had a hairy cam and very high compression (11:1) and it required several different dizzy's to get the ignition controlled so that it wouldn't pink. Eventually the springs from a Rolls Royce were used. Steve Lewis's old 390SE was built about 6 weeks later than mine and had a lesser spec engine. Yet on paper they were supposed to be the same.

You can get 70+ bhp on a road Rover V8 - I managed around the 80bhp mark before I supercharged it.

[shpub]

C O Jones said:

My engine (I belive that it was the first JE engine after the Andy Rouse ones, 17th 390 SE) has forged Cosworth pistons.

I doubt it' the first JE as there were only 5 AR engined cars before the switch to NCK and as I said earlier... they were actually JE engines.

Edited by shpub on Wednesday 30th December 22:50

[cuneus]

combine said:

Does anyone know if the factory racer is still going and who has it ?

Yes it is http://www.theseacpages.co.uk/racer.aspx

[shpub]

pjtvr said:

. Does anyone know the original specification of the NCK engine as in the 390SE. I am going to rebuild mine, so need to know what cam should be in it, or available equivalent, and any other non standard Rover parts.

To be honest... to rebuild it to the original spec is very difficult as almost every engine varied especially in the 84-87 period. To be honest I would think the only way forward would be to strip you engine down and replace/renew what has been used on your engine.

[shpub]

cuneus said:

combine said:

Does anyone know if the factory racer is still going and who has it ?

Yes it is http://www.theseacpages.co.uk/racer.aspx

I think combine referred to the 390SE factory racer which I believe - not totally sure of this - became the basis of the 420SEAC racer

[B-Reight]

Very interesting steve, so what is the route to 70bhp+/litre? Does one need to use a race camshaft with a 3k to 6-7k power band to get those sorta figures?

[shpub]

B-Reight said:

Very interesting steve, so what is the route to 70bhp+/litre? Does one need to use a race camshaft with a 3k to 6-7k power band to get those sorta figures?

248 cam, 11.75:1 CR, 8 throttle bodies, firehoses for injectors and a fully mapped ignition and fuelling, Stage V heads fitted with dustbin lids, custom billet crank, etc etc. Just a question of throwing sorry investing money in it.

Oh I sold the 390SE engine to a Seight builder and replaced it with a JE special with the above spec.

Edited by shpub on Wednesday 30th December 23:06

[Wedg1e]

shpub said:

Actually Andy Rouse didn't build the AR engines... they were subcontracted out to John Eales.

Aye, sorry, I was referring to the original spec dreamed up by Rouse... the one he allegedly charged TVR a huge amount for that they did or didn't pay depending on who you ask. The version I heard years back (from a learned source ) was that Rouse built one engine (tested by John Kent? Roop would know), Wheeler shat himself at the cost and they looked for a cheaper option. Perhaps they handed the engine to JE and said 'copy this, but make it work'. Perhaps Mr. Eales proposed his own, repeatable specification.
Whichever, as you say, the actual spec varies from full-on engineering masterpiece to (almost) wipe with an oily rag...

[Wedg1e]

B-Reight said:

Wedg1e,is your ported inlet manifold ported at both ends with larger trumpets or is it just ported at the head side?

Oops, almost missed this... it's only ported towards the head end and runs (or it did when I got it) standard diameter, full-length trumpets.
There's a HUGE amount of metal in the inlet manifold and you can get quite aggressive.

Can't get a direct link to the pic to work for some reason but on this page there's a pic that clearly shows the razor-blade left between the ports by NCK...

http://www.wedgeneering.co.uk/TVR%20390SE%20p3.htm