Theresa May speaking at the Plod federation conference
Discussion
telecat said:
Perhaps because Many of the things the Police are now blamed for are down to "Governments" especially the last two changing things around.
I'm going to take a cheap shot here, but since when does Government policy lead to Police officers beating up innocent people? In what way does Government policy encourage officers to lie, invent evidence and act to bring down members of a democratically elected Government? How does Government policy explain Hillsborough? How do the speeches of Mrs May and her predecessors result in Police officers being rude, arrogant and boorish with members of the general public?
Why does Government policy produce dishonest cops?
Yes, I know, it's not as simple as that, but FFS, people keep saying there is a problem. The Police are like a sulky teenager asked to do the washing up : the first response is to ignore, then its to be rude, and then, when told in no uncertain terms that it has to be done, to respond that they were going to do it anyway and complain that someone is shouting at them!
The Police have a problem. A big problem. They have lost the trust of a big chunk of society. It's got little to do with Government spin and everything to do with the actions and behaviour of police themselves. No doubt Derek will be along shortly to tell another story about Police bravery and sacrifice, as if this in some way offsets the bad stuff. But, as harsh as it may sound, I'm afraid that the goodwill, faith, trust and respect that the British public had for the Police is now so deeply eroded as to make those stories just sound like a pathetic attempt to justify the unjustifiable. And that is a tragedy, because those stories represent real bravery, sacrifice and honour by Police officers - officers who's sacrifice has been sullied by their fellow officers.
NailedOn said:
Well put.
I note that Derek states that those of us on PH who have found our support for the police decreasing are gullible victims of spin. In summary, those who do not agree with Derek are idiots. We are incapable of forming our own objective views it seems.
It is possible, is it not, that there is an alternative explanation as to why confidence in the police has fallen. Something related to their own actions.
There are two groups of people who find it extraordinarily difficult to admit they are wrong: Politicians and Police Officers.
You suggest that there are two groups of people who fail to accept blame.I note that Derek states that those of us on PH who have found our support for the police decreasing are gullible victims of spin. In summary, those who do not agree with Derek are idiots. We are incapable of forming our own objective views it seems.
It is possible, is it not, that there is an alternative explanation as to why confidence in the police has fallen. Something related to their own actions.
There are two groups of people who find it extraordinarily difficult to admit they are wrong: Politicians and Police Officers.
Be sensible. I'm putting the opposite view to those who have criticised the police actions.
We, that's you, me and everyone else is susceptible to spin. Despite me knowing that the media lies I find my opinions changing when I read things and see them on TV. I thought I made that obvious, but obviously not. So let me make it clear: I fall for spin, I can't help it any more than you can.
Take Hillsboro: the main criticism would appear to be that the police bosses altered statements to cover 'things' up. Maybe that is true. I don't know any more than you do but I'm prepared to be convinced, even though, of course, I know that deleting bits of statements is quite normal. I've done it myself. The suggestion has been that this went beyond such processes and I'm inclined to believe it is possible.
However, what did the police do on the day?
I met an ambulance crewmember who attended the Bradford fire. He mentioned that if the fencing had been in front of the stand as it was in one (more?) part of the pitch many more would have died. There was a report from the ambulance service as well as the police about the dangers.
A number of officers, and members of the public, received awards for their conduct during the fire.
However, you view of the police is corrupted by the actions of the rank and file officers by the report of ACPO and command officers it would appear. Forget the heroism and criticise the federated officers for something someone else did.
So why did May hype Hillsboro' without explaining she was talking about someone else. Why didn't she mention Bradford?
Although a bit off topic I suppose, on every briefing I had for football, and I would assume some others would as well, we were told to be careful of those who had been in the pubs and bars, throwing alcohol down their throats and then setting out late for the match. Many of them will not have tickets and will use the press as a way of getting through.
My experience of every match is that this group, same old faces, would cause problems.
Yet we have Taylor trying to get me to believe that at Hillsboro' hardly anyone was drunk to the extent that their behaviour was modified. Why was that one match unique? Were the pubs shut, was there a concentrated attack by the abstainers right at the end? Yet I bet any number of people believed that the 3'0'clock mobe were late because they came from a methodist prayer meeting.
So did you believe it? Was the crowd no problem at all? Does anyone who regularly goes to senior football matches believe that Hillsboro' was somehow unique?
I don't of course. Experience overcomes even the pronouncements of judges.
You suggest you can form your own objective opinions. What are your sources? You dismiss that of serving and ex officers with apparent contempt. I've got no axe to grind. I'm ex. I have been very critical of some aspects of the police in the past. Did you believe me then? So why not now?
I'm not making excuses for police misbehaviour. If you can find a post where I have then go ahead. What I'm doing is defending them when May is, seemingly, believed entirely. I find that odd.
I'm not after being leader of the tories.
I remember the miners strike Derek.The met police showing tenners and bragging how much money they where making.Out of fellow workers misery.
I know you can't tar people with the same brush but it left a sour taste in my mouth.Long time ago I know, never felt comfortable about the police again.
I know you can't tar people with the same brush but it left a sour taste in my mouth.Long time ago I know, never felt comfortable about the police again.
I don't doubt for a second that May intended her words to be heard far outside of the Hall, nor that many in the Police were a bit baffled by her strident tones in telling them to reform, when all the evidence was, that they were accepting reform.
I was quite happy when the Police and the Tories were naturally aligned, however I do genuinely believe the Police are just one of the organisations that always want more things. Shiney toys, new laws, more powers etc They can't help it it is baked in.
So I have mixed emotions to see someone prepared once in a while to get the (kitten heeled) jackboots on and give them a decent kicking.
Eric Mc said:
Rovinghawk said:
Derek Smith said:
You suggest the police dabble in politics. This human right is forbidden the police.
How is dabbling in politics a "human right"?However, when acting as a professional within their profession, then playing politics and trying to act as king makers/breakers is extremely UNPROFESSIONAL and downright unethical.
Foppo said:
I remember the miners strike Derek.The met police showing tenners and bragging how much money they where making.Out of fellow workers misery.
I know you can't tar people with the same brush but it left a sour taste in my mouth.Long time ago I know, never felt comfortable about the police again.
I remember the Miners' Strike. I remember football matches. I remember a collection going round for the welfare fund. I remember police officers being upset at being required to destroy a way of life. I remember officers being so badly injured that they never worked operationally again. Nowadays, they'd be sacked and lose all their pension rights, but in those the government hadn't worked out that they could save money by beating up the disabled. I know you can't tar people with the same brush but it left a sour taste in my mouth.Long time ago I know, never felt comfortable about the police again.
I know some officers who refused to go because of what they felt was abuse by government of their authority.
There are few, if any, police officers sill serving who policed the Miners' Strike yet you still allow it to colour your approach to the current lot.
I do not doubt that the incident occurred. I have no doubt that many Met officers did not do it as well. I wonder if those officers who did were in the front line against the flying pickets the day before.
andymadmak said:
I'm going to take a cheap shot here,
The Police are like a sulky teenager asked to do the washing up : the first response is to ignore, then its to be rude, and then, when told in no uncertain terms that it has to be done, to respond that they were going to do it anyway and complain that someone is shouting at them!
You do know, do you not, that the federation paid for the enquiry and had already accepted the findings? It's been on the forum lots of times. Perhaps you missed them. Them all.The Police are like a sulky teenager asked to do the washing up : the first response is to ignore, then its to be rude, and then, when told in no uncertain terms that it has to be done, to respond that they were going to do it anyway and complain that someone is shouting at them!
So the police are sulky because when May accuses them of not wanting reform, she uses the example of the police reforming themselves as showing how they don't want to reform. Then she demands that they do what they have already decided to do. Win/win for May. When the police fed does what it wanted to she can suggest that it was she who managed, against the Luddite police, to bully them into doing it. You know, what they were going to do anyway.
Also, the lack of intent to reform, before she managed to back the police into a corner and force them to accept what they've already accepted, was used as a reason for depriving the fed of the money that the fed got from government for doing the government's will.
As you say, a cheap shot, except by May.
Gargamel said:
70m tucked away in bank accounts, public confidence in the Police at a new low. Despite the federation endlessly banging on that lower budgets mean more crime, there is no statistical basis for that seen.
Finally of course we have the Politics, Police seem determine to dabble in politics, everythign from Plebgate to dire warning that economic policies will bring ruin.
Enough was certainly enough. The federation should look to its own, not line its pockets at taxpayer expense, and NOT have a view on government policy.
Sums it up well.Finally of course we have the Politics, Police seem determine to dabble in politics, everythign from Plebgate to dire warning that economic policies will bring ruin.
Enough was certainly enough. The federation should look to its own, not line its pockets at taxpayer expense, and NOT have a view on government policy.
Those pointing out the words-not-actions aspect are correct to do so, but we can hope.
I think most people who know serving police officers on a personal level will know of the day to day reality of shortages, low manpower levels and the lack of support.
One friend of mine regularly has to cover 24 parishes all by herself on a night shift (with access to 2 response officers from the larger station in the area), another traffic officer in the same area has a huge area to cover, and is often single crewed on a night shift, instead of the recommended double crewed. The strain can be huge at times, and it's never really brought to the publics attention the affects on the frontline staff.
However, there is another side which we see increasingly reported and that's of officers abusing their powers, or doing silly things like suing the burglary victim you are meant to be there helping, with the backing of the federation (for example. http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/update_norfolk_police_... ) These sort of actions really don't help the publics perception of the police.
One friend of mine regularly has to cover 24 parishes all by herself on a night shift (with access to 2 response officers from the larger station in the area), another traffic officer in the same area has a huge area to cover, and is often single crewed on a night shift, instead of the recommended double crewed. The strain can be huge at times, and it's never really brought to the publics attention the affects on the frontline staff.
However, there is another side which we see increasingly reported and that's of officers abusing their powers, or doing silly things like suing the burglary victim you are meant to be there helping, with the backing of the federation (for example. http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/update_norfolk_police_... ) These sort of actions really don't help the publics perception of the police.
eccles said:
I think most people who know serving police officers on a personal level will know of the day to day reality of shortages, low manpower levels and the lack of support.
One friend of mine regularly has to cover 24 parishes all by herself on a night shift (with access to 2 response officers from the larger station in the area), another traffic officer in the same area has a huge area to cover, and is often single crewed on a night shift, instead of the recommended double crewed. The strain can be huge at times, and it's never really brought to the publics attention the affects on the frontline staff.
However, there is another side which we see increasingly reported and that's of officers abusing their powers, or doing silly things like suing the burglary victim you are meant to be there helping, with the backing of the federation (for example. http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/update_norfolk_police_... ) These sort of actions really don't help the publics perception of the police.
Thank-you. This is a balanced post.One friend of mine regularly has to cover 24 parishes all by herself on a night shift (with access to 2 response officers from the larger station in the area), another traffic officer in the same area has a huge area to cover, and is often single crewed on a night shift, instead of the recommended double crewed. The strain can be huge at times, and it's never really brought to the publics attention the affects on the frontline staff.
However, there is another side which we see increasingly reported and that's of officers abusing their powers, or doing silly things like suing the burglary victim you are meant to be there helping, with the backing of the federation (for example. http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/update_norfolk_police_... ) These sort of actions really don't help the publics perception of the police.
PH needs balance. These threads get tedious as they descend into left v right v wrong etc.
Ms May.... Next Conservative Party Leader or Local School Headmistress 
Either way, I think the lady was great..... let me heavily paraphrase "You had your chance, wake up smell the coffee and get your arse into gear or we'll do it for you"
Net result, errr we won't debate we get it done.
The lady is not for turning
Either way, I think the lady was great..... let me heavily paraphrase "You had your chance, wake up smell the coffee and get your arse into gear or we'll do it for you"
Net result, errr we won't debate we get it done.
The lady is not for turning
Los Endos said:
Ms May.... Next Conservative Party Leader or Local School Headmistress
Either way, I think the lady was great..... let me heavily paraphrase "You had your chance, wake up smell the coffee and get your arse into gear or we'll do it for you"
Net result, errr we won't debate we get it done.
The lady is not for turning
I agree, I have just heard this speech and she was fantastic. It is such a huge shame Cameron hasn't her apparent guile. perhaps there would be a lot less UKIP votes.Either way, I think the lady was great..... let me heavily paraphrase "You had your chance, wake up smell the coffee and get your arse into gear or we'll do it for you"
Net result, errr we won't debate we get it done.
The lady is not for turning
Foppo said:
I remember the miners strike Derek.The met police showing tenners and bragging how much money they where making.Out of fellow workers misery.
I know you can't tar people with the same brush but it left a sour taste in my mouth.Long time ago I know, never felt comfortable about the police again.
If your opinions were formed 30 years ago, with respect, you are not the problem. It is losing the support of fair minded people today that is the problem.I know you can't tar people with the same brush but it left a sour taste in my mouth.Long time ago I know, never felt comfortable about the police again.
I was in Notts in 1984, and I never saw any of the behaviour you describe. we used to give all our spare food to the pickets, and as Derek said, play impromptu cricket and football matches. The only time there was any unpleasantness was when the TV cameras arrived and people felt they had to put on a bit of a show, normally when the working miners were arriving for work.
chris watton said:
Los Endos said:
Ms May.... Next Conservative Party Leader or Local School Headmistress
Either way, I think the lady was great..... let me heavily paraphrase "You had your chance, wake up smell the coffee and get your arse into gear or we'll do it for you"
Net result, errr we won't debate we get it done.
The lady is not for turning
I agree, I have just heard this speech and she was fantastic. It is such a huge shame Cameron hasn't her apparent guile. perhaps there would be a lot less UKIP votes.Either way, I think the lady was great..... let me heavily paraphrase "You had your chance, wake up smell the coffee and get your arse into gear or we'll do it for you"
Net result, errr we won't debate we get it done.
The lady is not for turning
Polfed thinking the government doesn't run the country and throwing toys out of the pram when they're made to face reality wasn't just the ticket.
"Been in this job 21 years" and upset by a Home Secretary speaking home truths...pathetic. Plenty have been in different jobs 21+n years. Don't like it, change jobs.
Theresa May said:
The federation was created by an act of Parliament and it can be reformed by an act of Parliament. If you do not change of your own accord, we will impose change on you.
The miners couldn't dictate to parliament, neither should polfed. Is the police 'force' not supposed to be a quasi-military organisation with some sort of discpline...if so, listening up and doing what your boss tells you when it's reasonable and lawful should be second nature, as opposed to whining about it.XCP said:
Who decides what is reasonable though? The fact that an order is lawful is sufficient. God forbid that debate about reasonableness muddies the waters.
I think you meant 'insufficient' and having held the Queen's Commission, lessons from the quasi-military are surplus to requirements.Not sure what your point is about reasonableness. It was an additional point not a substitute.
Theresa May said:
The federation was created by an act of Parliament and it can be reformed by an act of Parliament. If you do not change of your own accord, we will impose change on you.
There's nothing remotely unreasonable there...hose out your own stables or the government will act to remove the crap, fine, now we wait for the polfed politicians to decide which route it is.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff