Meanwhile, In Syria
Discussion
XM5ER said:
scherzkeks said:
Wayback might still have it. It was titled "Rebuilding America's Defenses"
A summary of sorts is here: http://www.antiwar.com/orig/stockbauer1.html
Edit: Not common knowledge, but they reformed under CNAS.
https://www.cnas.org/missionA summary of sorts is here: http://www.antiwar.com/orig/stockbauer1.html
Edit: Not common knowledge, but they reformed under CNAS.
Edited by scherzkeks on Thursday 29th June 19:42
They seem like a very different crowd, mainly Democrats as far as I can see.
Edited by scherzkeks on Friday 30th June 15:08
scherzkeks said:
Lots of cross-over and support from PNACers. I should have worded it slightly differently. Not the exact same group down to the member. Hillary gave the keynote at their offical launch. Neocons/libs share many ideas (particularly in the context of globalism), with slight variations on approach. The terms relate more to international relations philosophy, not strictly Lib/Con in the traditional sense.
They've learned to hide their purpose then. PNAC was just so in your face it was almost unbelievable.Edited by scherzkeks on Friday 30th June 15:08
BlackLabel said:
Tough on terror when it suits him. He doesn't say much about state sponsored terrorism from the Gulf however he's spent the last 15 years calling on America to bomb the f
k out of Iran. Every time Bolton speaks Iran are supposedly only weeks or months away from acquiring nukes and Armageddon is around the corner.
Iran and Syria are run by brutal dictators the fact they are fighting another load of loons called Isis doesn't excuse them.k out of Iran. Every time Bolton speaks Iran are supposedly only weeks or months away from acquiring nukes and Armageddon is around the corner.They don't help their cause by chanting 'DEATH TO AMERICA' but you knew that anyway.
Raygun said:
They don't help their cause by chanting 'DEATH TO AMERICA' but you knew that anyway.
It's really puzzling why they would do that. After all, what has the US ever done against them? Well, apart from overthrow a democratically elected regime, support a 10-year war against them and shoot down one of their airliners....XM5ER said:
PNAC was just so in your face it was almost unbelievable.
Indeed, but only if you had the interest to dig a bit. I've been surprised on more than one occasion at just how many fairly politically interested folks have never even heard of the group. I find more mainstream references to them now than I ever did during Shrub or the Drone Ranger's administrations, and they played a major role in shaping foreign policy in both.
Countdown said:
It's really puzzling why they would do that. After all, what has the US ever done against them? Well, apart from overthrow a democratically elected regime, support a 10-year war against them and shoot down one of their airliners....
....after they took a load of hostages in 1979 whilst the US had an Obama like liberal Prez in Jimmy Carter.If you decide chanting Death to the most powerful nation on earth be prepared for the consequences, America has been lenient so far and Iran and Syria should count their blessings.
Raygun said:
....after they took a load of hostages in 1979 whilst the US had an Obama like liberal Prez in Jimmy Carter.
If you think that's where it all kicked off between the US and Iran then you need to brush up on your history. The US likes to have compliant dictators in place. If you stop being compliant then you become a "Terrorist loving enemy of freedom and democracy"Countdown said:
Raygun said:
....after they took a load of hostages in 1979 whilst the US had an Obama like liberal Prez in Jimmy Carter.
If you think that's where it all kicked off between the US and Iran then you need to brush up on your history. The US likes to have compliant dictators in place. If you stop being compliant then you become a "Terrorist loving enemy of freedom and democracy"Raygun said:
BlackLabel said:
Tough on terror when it suits him. He doesn't say much about state sponsored terrorism from the Gulf however he's spent the last 15 years calling on America to bomb the fk out of Iran. Every time Bolton speaks Iran are supposedly only weeks or months away from acquiring nukes and Armageddon is around the corner.
Iran and Syria are run by brutal dictators the fact they are fighting another load of loons called Isis doesn't excuse them.k out of Iran. Every time Bolton speaks Iran are supposedly only weeks or months away from acquiring nukes and Armageddon is around the corner.They don't help their cause by chanting 'DEATH TO AMERICA' but you knew that anyway.
BlackLabel said:
That doesn't excuse the fact that time after time we've been lied to by the likes of John Bolton, John McCain and their friends in the Gulf and Israel about Iran's nuclear ambitions and capabilities. If we had listened to them the Middle East and world would be in an even worse situation than it's in now.
Worse than it is now? Can it get any fking worse? One load of cranks in Syria fighting another load of cranks!!If you think you'd get a better way of life in Syria or Iran than you do here or in America go and join them.
Raygun said:
BlackLabel said:
That doesn't excuse the fact that time after time we've been lied to by the likes of John Bolton, John McCain and their friends in the Gulf and Israel about Iran's nuclear ambitions and capabilities. If we had listened to them the Middle East and world would be in an even worse situation than it's in now.
Worse than it is now? Can it get any fking worse? One load of cranks in Syria fighting another load of cranks!!If you think you'd get a better way of life in Syria or Iran than you do here or in America go and join them.
It has never worked out well when western countries have tried to help provide "democracy" to other countries of the world and usually all we do is create ever more enemies wanting to do us harm.
Under Assad and Hussein both their countries were calm and stable. Yes they were/are dictators however the people of their countries felt and generally were safe. Everywhere else in the middle east where the west has decided we had some moral obligation to intervene and "free" the people and give them democracy they have been left living a nightmare of terrorists ruining their countries.
Under Assad Syria was a mostly peaceful country which was a bit like the UAE with westernised lifestyle. Under any of those waiting in the wings to take over it will turn into a full blown nightmare for those who live there.
I grew up in South Africa. People around the world called apartheid era whites racists and heartless etc for the way blacks were treated and yes apartheid was wrong and unfairin so many ways. The interesting thing is like virtually every other country in Africa or the world where foreign governments decided to step in and force "regime" change (in SA's case via heavy sanctions etc) it has turned the country into a spiralling nightmare.
Political corruption is out of control. SOcial welfare programmes are falling apart. Large proportions of the police are deeply corrupt. Rape and murder has spiralled completely out of control to the point where the poorest are suffering as they cannot be sure they wont get raped or murdered on their way back to their homes.
And do you know who has suffered the brunt of the nightmare? The people the western world were claiming they were giving freedom to.The Poorest of society. Go to South Africa now and speak to a lot of black people who grew up under apartheid and they will tell you they somewhat wish they were still living under apartheid as they were safer.
There was less corruption. There were less murders. There were more jobs so they could buy food and live.
Sometimes the devil you know is better than the one you dont.
frankenstein12 said:
That entirely misses the point and shows what is wrong with Western foreign policy. It is not up to us how the middle eastern people run their countries. If they wish to have one despotic dictator or nutjob after another then thats their call.
It has never worked out well when western countries have tried to help provide "democracy" to other countries of the world and usually all we do is create ever more enemies wanting to do us harm.
Under Assad and Hussein both their countries were calm and stable. Yes they were/are dictators however the people of their countries felt and generally were safe. Everywhere else in the middle east where the west has decided we had some moral obligation to intervene and "free" the people and give them democracy they have been left living a nightmare of terrorists ruining their countries.
Under Assad Syria was a mostly peaceful country which was a bit like the UAE with westernised lifestyle. Under any of those waiting in the wings to take over it will turn into a full blown nightmare for those who live there.
I grew up in South Africa. People around the world called apartheid era whites racists and heartless etc for the way blacks were treated and yes apartheid was wrong and unfairin so many ways. The interesting thing is like virtually every other country in Africa or the world where foreign governments decided to step in and force "regime" change (in SA's case via heavy sanctions etc) it has turned the country into a spiralling nightmare.
Political corruption is out of control. SOcial welfare programmes are falling apart. Large proportions of the police are deeply corrupt. Rape and murder has spiralled completely out of control to the point where the poorest are suffering as they cannot be sure they wont get raped or murdered on their way back to their homes.
And do you know who has suffered the brunt of the nightmare? The people the western world were claiming they were giving freedom to.The Poorest of society. Go to South Africa now and speak to a lot of black people who grew up under apartheid and they will tell you they somewhat wish they were still living under apartheid as they were safer.
There was less corruption. There were less murders. There were more jobs so they could buy food and live.
Sometimes the devil you know is better than the one you dont.
Unfortunately as soon as you start locking up people like Nelson Mandela and killing people like Steve Biko in custody and have people like Terre'Blanche going around with his lynching mob you don't have a leg to stand on really do you? Whether it turns into a corrupted sIt has never worked out well when western countries have tried to help provide "democracy" to other countries of the world and usually all we do is create ever more enemies wanting to do us harm.
Under Assad and Hussein both their countries were calm and stable. Yes they were/are dictators however the people of their countries felt and generally were safe. Everywhere else in the middle east where the west has decided we had some moral obligation to intervene and "free" the people and give them democracy they have been left living a nightmare of terrorists ruining their countries.
Under Assad Syria was a mostly peaceful country which was a bit like the UAE with westernised lifestyle. Under any of those waiting in the wings to take over it will turn into a full blown nightmare for those who live there.
I grew up in South Africa. People around the world called apartheid era whites racists and heartless etc for the way blacks were treated and yes apartheid was wrong and unfairin so many ways. The interesting thing is like virtually every other country in Africa or the world where foreign governments decided to step in and force "regime" change (in SA's case via heavy sanctions etc) it has turned the country into a spiralling nightmare.
Political corruption is out of control. SOcial welfare programmes are falling apart. Large proportions of the police are deeply corrupt. Rape and murder has spiralled completely out of control to the point where the poorest are suffering as they cannot be sure they wont get raped or murdered on their way back to their homes.
And do you know who has suffered the brunt of the nightmare? The people the western world were claiming they were giving freedom to.The Poorest of society. Go to South Africa now and speak to a lot of black people who grew up under apartheid and they will tell you they somewhat wish they were still living under apartheid as they were safer.
There was less corruption. There were less murders. There were more jobs so they could buy food and live.
Sometimes the devil you know is better than the one you dont.
t hole, it's theirs to do what they want, treating the natives a bit better in the first place it might of turned out a whole lot better.If Iran and Syria just run their own countries rather than stirring s
t by sponsoring terrorist groups they would've been left alone but if they keep taking the piss they will get punished.Raygun said:
Countdown said:
Raygun said:
....after they took a load of hostages in 1979 whilst the US had an Obama like liberal Prez in Jimmy Carter.
If you think that's where it all kicked off between the US and Iran then you need to brush up on your history. The US likes to have compliant dictators in place. If you stop being compliant then you become a "Terrorist loving enemy of freedom and democracy"Raygun said:
Unfortunately as soon as you start locking up people like Nelson Mandela and killing people like Steve Biko in custody and have people like Terre'Blanche going around with his lynching mob you don't have a leg to stand on really do you?
You either didn't bother reading frankenstein12's post or you didn't understand it.I understand the allure of that grand righteousness, but look at what is good for the people of those countries:
People in the Ukraine had far better lives before the illegal western coup.
People in the Crimea are having a much better time under the Russian Federation that they would under the new Ukraine regime.
People in Iraq were far better off under Saddam
People in Libya were far better off under Gaddafi
People in Syria were far better off before we armed a bunch of terrorists and mercenaries and got them to invade.
Parroting the propagandist crap is great, but think about what it means for a family to have security, functional water and sewage, trains, schools, hospitals and the ability to walk around without being blown to pieces by a US drone or Israeli flechette bomb.
Millions of people are dead, injured or in misery because people like you emote loaded words like 'brutal dictator', 'regime' and all the other pschobabble about equal rights or democracy, a system upheld by us and the US but rarely followed and worse - some of our best friends in Saudi and Israel are cruel totalitarian dictatorships or apartheid supremacist states.
Hypocrisy may be very trendy but it's killing an awful lot of people.
BTW do you know any Iranians?
I do. They can come and go as they please, their country is stable, prosperous and cheap to live in, women are free to drive and to dress how they like, shops and markets are very similar to our own with similar prices for cars and bikes, yet here you are telling me how it's a brutal regime and implying that the people will be better off if we start to bomb or invade them.
I expect you see it as a desert too, full of sand, but it has rolling green hills, 6' banks of snow in the higher regions and in places is rather like France or Portugal in climate and countryside.
It's well documented that Saudi Arabia and allies sponsor ISIS and Al Qaeda, but they are never criticised for that (unless like Qatar - they fall out of favour), but Syria and Iran? Come on.
We are constantly told they sponsor terrorism but if you research that, you come up with nothing. Nada. Then look at what they've both been doing for the past 5 years: Fighting ISIS. The same ISIS sponsored by us and our allies.
Yet here you are telling is it's Syria and Iran who are the bad guys funding terror? I have news for you: That's a big fat lie.
Globs said:
People in the Ukraine had far better lives before the illegal western coup.
People in the Crimea are having a much better time under the Russian Federation that they would under the new Ukraine regime.
People in Iraq were far better off under Saddam
People in Libya were far better off under Gaddafi
People in Syria were far better off before we armed a bunch of terrorists and mercenaries and got them to invade.
"People" is a very broad term when referring to an entire population. Some people were better off, true, but Ive seen first-hand in some of those countries how the the other "people" live (or don't as the case was). People in the Crimea are having a much better time under the Russian Federation that they would under the new Ukraine regime.
People in Iraq were far better off under Saddam
People in Libya were far better off under Gaddafi
People in Syria were far better off before we armed a bunch of terrorists and mercenaries and got them to invade.
The great paradox of western intervention really. Damned whether we do or dont.
Globs said:
Yet here you are telling is it's Syria and Iran who are the bad guys funding terror? I have news for you: That's a big fat lie.
Who funds Hezbollah and Hamas?You might not like the Western way of life like we live here and America, this site is full of things we like doing in a Western society. The comments column on a Russia Today article would be more suited for you, it's where the cranks and neo-Nazis hang out.
Raygun said:
Who funds Hezbollah and Hamas?
You might not like the Western way of life like we live here and America, this site is full of things we like doing in a Western society. The comments column on a Russia Today article would be more suited for you, it's where the cranks and neo-Nazis hang out.
What have you got against Hezbollah and Hamas?You might not like the Western way of life like we live here and America, this site is full of things we like doing in a Western society. The comments column on a Russia Today article would be more suited for you, it's where the cranks and neo-Nazis hang out.
Oh I know - Israel hates them
Israeli's own and run our media.
You've read that media.
So now you hate them too.
The Lebanon was invaded 6 times by Israel, in 2006 Hezbollah was finally strong enough (having been formed in the face of these constant aggressions) to throw them out. On the last day Israel seeded their fields with 6 million cluster bombletts just from spite.
So no, Hezbollah are not liked by Israel, and for the past 5 years Hezbollah has been fighting ISIS while Israel has been helping ISIS. So who funds Hezbollah - I don't care.
Who funds ISIS? Saudi Arabia: our 'friend', a country ruled with an iron fist by religious extremists who won't even let women leave the house alone, let alone drive a car.
Then Hamas - a creation of Israel to upset the PLO. Try reading about the 1948 Nakba and the invasion of Palestine before you start denigrating people than in any other place in the world would be described as 'rebels' or 'freedom fighters'.
Countdown said:
It's really puzzling why they would do that. After all, what has the US ever done against them? Well, apart from overthrow a democratically elected regime, support a 10-year war against them and shoot down one of their airliners....
Do you both remember when Iran took both American & I believe Russian diplomatic hostages and the outcome of that?Phil
Transmitter Man said:
Countdown said:
It's really puzzling why they would do that. After all, what has the US ever done against them? Well, apart from overthrow a democratically elected regime, support a 10-year war against them and shoot down one of their airliners....
Do you both remember when Iran took both American & I believe Russian diplomatic hostages and the outcome of that?Phil
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