London Protests (riot) this weekend....
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
Derek Smith said:
WhoseGeneration said:
I was just trying to defend Oxbridge from those who only seem to think Classics and suchlike.
Point taken.When I was a kid, some weeks ago now, there was a fascination with engineering amongst my age group. It wasn't just the group I went with, but it was all in the papers as well. I suppose the space race helped no end but there are things just as exciting now.
When I built my ZX80 I took it to work.
I often think we need MPs with engineering degrees rather than law degrees. At least they'd work to a solution.
I think Derek has hit the nail on the head that maybe we are looking at what 'engineering' is incorrectly.
We have an absolutely enormous number of bright kids going into software and tech and design etc. These are the kids who would have been inspired by ship building, cars, planes in our era (maybe byplanes in Dereks) but now what inspires them in their youth is modern tech.
Just in the South East alone there are enormous numbers of GUI designers and App builders and 'engineers' working for Apple and the like.
I don't think that engineering has demised at all in the UK, in fact I think in the last 10 years it has seen a resurgence the likes of which we have not seen since the Victorian days. It is simply that we are failing to recognise what engineering actually is in modern Britain.
There is friction within some groups of "engineers" at plumbers calling themselves Heating Engineers & Electricians calling themselves Electrical Engineers.
There is a difference between heavy & light engineering, fabrication & design etc.
Then there are those who didn't get the requisite degree and/or membership of the recognised body (CIBSE, IET etc).
Perhaps we should go back to the old system where to be an engineer, one had to own & use a slide rule
On a slightly different tack, I heard some woman speaking on R4 on Sunday morning stating that what we need in the UK to get us out of this mess is manufacturing.
Which might possibly work, but then her & all the rest would need to support such a venture by not buying all the cheap imports that contributed to the demise of previous industry.
Ironically, although a confirmed labour supporter always voting for them whatever, she decided to spoil her ballot paper at the last election.
Which leads me to my view that wee need to be encouraging & training many more school leavers at 16 in trades, rather than filling their heads with more full-time education & the carrot that is university as an alternative to work.
Only by rightly sorting the wheat from the chaff & re-aligning the suitability of candidates for further/higher education will things improve.
I just wonder if anyone in charge has the balls to stand up & admit that the social experiment of insisting that everyone is as intelligent as everyone else was a crock & has contributed to this present mess.
The particular type of engineering we have a tradition of in this country seems to be of making innovative products. Making something nobody has made before.
The Japanese in particular understand that finding a way to mass produce a product in such a way that it's reliable and makes a profit is just as much a achievement as innovation. In Britain we seem to think we have done out bit once we've invested something novel. So we have a constant stream of jet airliners, FWD small cars, hovercraft, light aircraft, rotary engined motorbikes, weird computers, etc etc that are very innovative and in some ways brilliant designs but either unreliable or unprofitable.
Then when someone else realises that figuring out how to produce something consistently and profitably is what really matters, we get left behind.
The Japanese in particular understand that finding a way to mass produce a product in such a way that it's reliable and makes a profit is just as much a achievement as innovation. In Britain we seem to think we have done out bit once we've invested something novel. So we have a constant stream of jet airliners, FWD small cars, hovercraft, light aircraft, rotary engined motorbikes, weird computers, etc etc that are very innovative and in some ways brilliant designs but either unreliable or unprofitable.
Then when someone else realises that figuring out how to produce something consistently and profitably is what really matters, we get left behind.
Dr Jekyll said:
The particular type of engineering we have a tradition of in this country seems to be of making innovative products. Making something nobody has made before.
The Japanese in particular understand that finding a way to mass produce a product in such a way that it's reliable and makes a profit is just as much a achievement as innovation. In Britain we seem to think we have done out bit once we've invested something novel. So we have a constant stream of jet airliners, FWD small cars, hovercraft, light aircraft, rotary engined motorbikes, weird computers, etc etc that are very innovative and in some ways brilliant designs but either unreliable or unprofitable.
Then when someone else realises that figuring out how to produce something consistently and profitably is what really matters, we get left behind.
Which would imply that it's more an issue with how we finance venure in the UK than the shortage of intelligent 'creators'.The Japanese in particular understand that finding a way to mass produce a product in such a way that it's reliable and makes a profit is just as much a achievement as innovation. In Britain we seem to think we have done out bit once we've invested something novel. So we have a constant stream of jet airliners, FWD small cars, hovercraft, light aircraft, rotary engined motorbikes, weird computers, etc etc that are very innovative and in some ways brilliant designs but either unreliable or unprofitable.
Then when someone else realises that figuring out how to produce something consistently and profitably is what really matters, we get left behind.
Dyson is a good example but many other potentially great concepts fail because we cannot finance the start-up from the venture markets.
In the US failure is accepted as part of the route to success, it is not held against someone. Venture capital is more liberal and thus more freely available.
In the UK VCs will try to only invest in proven models, angels tend to be a bit thick and the small cap market is a criminal scam.
DC would do well to properly incentise via taxation the investment into people's ideas.
Zod said:
Morningside said:
Blair / Labour party put a lot of faith in the BioMedical industry. Anyone know what return they got on this?
lots of donations.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1529403/Lab...
DonkeyApple said:
Zod said:
Morningside said:
Blair / Labour party put a lot of faith in the BioMedical industry. Anyone know what return they got on this?
lots of donations.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1529403/Lab...
So did Labour really do anything apart from self-found its party machine? (Even though I understand their books are non too great!).
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but I am a member of another forum for festivals
The OH commented last night that there was a thread and it was sure to wind me up and everyone else on PH (she reads PH)
So here you go, some of the Lefty Looneys that were attending...oh dear
http://www.efestivals.co.uk/forums/index.php?showt...
The OH commented last night that there was a thread and it was sure to wind me up and everyone else on PH (she reads PH)
So here you go, some of the Lefty Looneys that were attending...oh dear
http://www.efestivals.co.uk/forums/index.php?showt...
Du1point8 said:
wasnt there a nice incident recently were the Labour party and the unions effectively money laundering but this was not really picked up on or investigated.
Yes. It was subsidies going out from Govt to the Unions which the Unions then took a cut and re-patriated as donations to the Labour Party.It did, on paper, look like very simple and very illegal money laundering.
DonkeyApple said:
We have an absolutely enormous number of bright kids going into software and tech and design etc. These are the kids who would have been inspired by ship building, cars, planes in our era (maybe byplanes in Dereks) but now what inspires them in their youth is modern tech.
A bit harsh I felt. That said, when in the ATC I flew in a Rapide that was used to deliver newspapers. As a special tret we went up in a much more advanced plan, a state-of-the-art Airspeed Oxford. They don't build them like that anymore. Ub fact: don't build them like that anymore. You would not believe the movement of the aft end of the fusalage.Because of my maths qualifications, and my ability with mental maths, adding up 6-figure columns, I was put into navigation. We flew around for a while and then had to plot our way back to the airbase. I still remember the quizical look on the WO's face as he took my plot and asked: And just whee is it you expect us to land when we get to the North Sea. I'd got everything 180 degrees out.
My protest that I'd only made the one mistake didn't gain full acceptance.
My main point though is that the across the board increases of 300% in university fees will mean that poorer potential science based grads are unlikely to go to uni.
There was a bit on Radio 4 around lunch-time today where engineering students and graduates put their views. most said their career choices were looked down upon by their peers at uni.
My brother built his own radios, was/is brilliant with electronics, and I remember going into Maplins when his eldest lad was still a toddler, perhaps two and a half, and there was a billboard with the theoretical circuit of a transistor outside. His lad pointed to it and said: transistor. It was funny but not that unusual.
It seemed that technology was exciting then and all my mates wanted in. I remember the awe in which we listened to the beep from Sputnik. everyone in my class wanted to be an astronaught. It's probably a lawyer nowadays.
I'm all for cutting the subsidies to university students. But we should leave them in place for the ones that stand some chance of being useful.
I went to art college and found it exciting and really fascinating. But my company paid for that.
And quite rightly. Media studies: get the BBC to foot the bill.
SplatSpeed said:
sorry derek
but most the engineers I know have left the country
there are better pay, conditions and respect in the rest of the world!
they leave after every major labour government you know!
My point made, I think. but most the engineers I know have left the country
there are better pay, conditions and respect in the rest of the world!
they leave after every major labour government you know!
However, it is not just Labour but the Tories as well. There is no respect for people who make things. It starts in school and is reinforced as the students progress. Part of the problem in the junior school. I don't want to be sexist but nowadays they are 90% femail and there are few role models to follow who would take a clock to pieces.
My elder daughter, highly intelligent, was taken to the V&A (twice) and the Natural History museums by her secondary school but not to the Science Museum. I asked about this and my protests were brushed aside and when I mentioned the Imperial War Museum it was as if I'd suggested a brothel. Yet I reckon that it is the one place that is likely to turn you into a pacifist. The first time I took my daughter to the Science Museum she was excited. I took her to Hurstmonceux (or some place spelt similarly) and I discovered that there was nothing on astronomy taught in her school.
To be fair to the school, maths was well covered and well taught and none of my kids are frightened of figures.
I've got four kids. The difference between the curriculum of the eldest, now 39, and the yougest, 24, is remarkable. Science became class-based with little or no experimentation. Emphasis was on the softer 'sciences' such as geography. Even biology was much shallower and, of course, no disection.
This movement away from the sciences has been going on for a long time. Even under Thatcher and didn't she have a biology degree?
Lawyers are eulogised yet they produce nothing. Scientists are regarged as a problem. I bet scientists will be blamed for the nuclear problems in Japan. We've had precious little praise for the way their buildings stood up to one of the worst earthquakes in recorded history.
My personal feeling is that the whole teaching business is at fault. Universities are run by those who could not be gainfully employed outside of the walls. Other schools are run to gain high pass rates. Science? Maths? Sounds difficult. Lets go for media and dance.
Smiler. said:
Interesting point.
There is friction within some groups of "engineers" at plumbers calling themselves Heating Engineers & Electricians calling themselves Electrical Engineers.
There is a difference between heavy & light engineering, fabrication & design etc.
Then there are those who didn't get the requisite degree and/or membership of the recognised body (CIBSE, IET etc).
Perhaps we should go back to the old system where to be an engineer, one had to own & use a slide rule.
Continuing on in a slightly less interesting direction, what is the opinion of the "proper" engineers of the use of the Engineer title by other none traditional bodies, for example, I'm a fully paid up member of the British Computer Society, so get to use BSc/BEng & CEng as well as the half dozen other qualifications. . . . . . . . Does this make me an engineer, or simply another geek with too many letters after his name (even though I spend a large percentage of my time doing engineering type stuff!)There is friction within some groups of "engineers" at plumbers calling themselves Heating Engineers & Electricians calling themselves Electrical Engineers.
There is a difference between heavy & light engineering, fabrication & design etc.
Then there are those who didn't get the requisite degree and/or membership of the recognised body (CIBSE, IET etc).
Perhaps we should go back to the old system where to be an engineer, one had to own & use a slide rule
.Edited by AndrewW-G on Tuesday 29th March 19:03
AndrewW-G said:
Smiler. said:
Interesting point.
There is friction within some groups of "engineers" at plumbers calling themselves Heating Engineers & Electricians calling themselves Electrical Engineers.
There is a difference between heavy & light engineering, fabrication & design etc.
Then there are those who didn't get the requisite degree and/or membership of the recognised body (CIBSE, IET etc).
Perhaps we should go back to the old system where to be an engineer, one had to own & use a slide rule.
Continuing on in a slightly less interesting direction, what is the opinion of the "proper" engineers of the use of the Engineer title by other none traditional bodies, for example, I'm a fully paid up member of the British Computer Society, so get to use BCS(eng) as well as the half dozen other qualifications. . . . . . . . Does this make me an engineer, or simply another geek with too many letters after his name (even though I spend a large percentage of my time doing engineering type stuff!)There is friction within some groups of "engineers" at plumbers calling themselves Heating Engineers & Electricians calling themselves Electrical Engineers.
There is a difference between heavy & light engineering, fabrication & design etc.
Then there are those who didn't get the requisite degree and/or membership of the recognised body (CIBSE, IET etc).
Perhaps we should go back to the old system where to be an engineer, one had to own & use a slide rule
.
I think that the level of mathematics differes far greater in a lot of "engineering" today.
I recently undertook a course which included a brief section on protocol & the make up of signal data. Whilst I recognise some of the terms (and have a rudimentary knowledge of binary), it mainly left me fart-less.
Fascinating though.
I do think that much of my "engineering" is application and/or management (being in the construction industry), rather than the pure & inspired stuff of Brunel & the likes.
What is your current arena if you don't mind me asking?
Smiler. said:
What is your current arena if you don't mind me asking?
At the moment my time is split between restoring older Ferraris and Maseratis and having to wear a suit 
whilst acting as a consultant for the company that I helped start, specialised area is mainly in the finance sector, with specific interests in A.I / logic based mangement solutions and fairly chunky EDRMS platforms (7 billion + documents in the last one I was involved with)) but I get involved with anything I find interesting 
Morningside said:
Thought that was the case. But did we (the county/taxpayer/man in street/etc) make anything out of the deal?
I'm sure some of that money was spent in the UK and not just in the Alps and the Carribean.Morningside said:
So did Labour really do anything apart from self-found its party machine? (Even though I understand their books are non too great!).
It's impressive isn't it. They could even do simple fraud properly 
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff